Syria said to boost arsenal after war

[SS_Charlemagne]

Syria said to boost arsenal after war

JERUSALEM - Syria has embarked on an "unprecedented" effort to bolster its armed forces with Iranian and Russian help, the Israeli daily Haaretz reported Thursday.

Damascus has large numbers of surface-based missiles and long-range rockets, including the Scud-D, capable of reaching nearly any target in Israel, the report said, and the Syrian navy has received new Iranian anti-ship missiles.

Haaretz also said Russia was about to sell Syria thousands of advanced anti-tank missiles, despite Israeli charges that in the past Syria has transferred those missiles to Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon.

Syrian officials did not immediately comment on the Israeli reports, but President Bashar Assad said in a television interview immediately after the fighting that Syria was preparing to defend itself.

Israeli defense officials confirmed that Syria had ordered new stocks of the anti-tank weapons after noting Hezbollah's successful use of them against Israeli armor in last summer's fighting in south Lebanon.

Syria also ordered new supplies of surface-to-sea missiles after Hezbollah used one to hit an Israeli warship, killing four crewmen, off the Lebanese coast last July, according to the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

The officials said Syrian ground forces adjacent to the Israeli-controlled Golan Heights had been reinforced after the outbreak of last year's Israel-Hezbollah conflict and had not yet fully returned to their prewar footing.

Israel and Syria are officially at war, though there have been no open hostilities between them for decades. Syria has demanded the return of the Golan, which Israel captured in 1967 and later annexed, as the price for any peace deal. Israel says it will not discuss a formal treaty with its northern neighbor as long as Damascus continues to back Hezbollah and the radical Islamic Hamas group.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070222/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_syria

[SS_Charlemagne]

Feb. 22, 2007 15:01
Peretz to officers: Avoid commenting about Syria

Following news reports Thursday that Syria had moved troops closer to Israel's border, Defense Minister Amir Peretz said, "extraneous declarations regarding Syria, as well as a heating up the rhetoric, should be avoided.

Speaking at a weekly security assessment in Tel Aviv, with various security department heads and IDF officers in attendance, Peretz added that "the situation on the ground will be examined according to the facts and the IDF will deploy accordingly."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1171894495019&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[SS_Charlemagne]

Peretz urges Israel to avoid verbal escalation with Syria

Responding to a Haaretz report that Syria is boosting its army and moving troops closer to its border with Israel, Defense Minister Amir Peretz said Thursday that Israel should refrain from making further statements regarding Syria, and urged officials to avoid a verbal escalation of tensions.

Speaking at his weekly meeting with Defense Ministry officials, Peretz said that the situation would be assessed based on concrete information, and that the army would prepare itself as necessary.

Earlier Thursday, Israel Radio quoting Syrian parliament member Mohammed Habash as denying the Haaretz report. According to the radio, Habash told the Dubai-based Al Arabiya satellite channel that nothing has changed in terms of troop size along the border, but "Syria is fully prepared for any situation [that may develop]."

Habash warned that should "Israel decide to do something stupid, it would pay a heavy price."

Addressing the charge that Syria's military buildup is being funded by Iran, the radio quoted Habash as saying that the "cooperation between Damascus and Tehran is no secret, as both are being faced with a direct threat."

The Syrian armed forces are being strengthened in an unprecedented way in recent memory with the help of generous funding from Iran and its troops appear to be moving closer to the border with Israel.

The Syrians are bolstering their forces in all areas except the air force, which has been believed to be weak for some time. The main emphasis of the efforts has been missiles and long-range rockets to compensate for the weak air force.

The Syrian navy, after years of neglect, is also being reinforced with an Iranian version of a Chinese anti-ship missile, similar to the one used by Hezbollah during the second Lebanon war to strike the Israeli destroyer INS Hanit.

In addition to the overall strengthening of the armed forces in Syria, there has been a redeployment of forces along the front lines. It appears that the Syrians have moved forces closer to the border with Israel on the Golan Heights.

The Yom Kippur War on the Syrian front began with a raid by helicopter-borne Syrian commandos on the Hermon listening post, which they then occupied. The position was not taken by Israeli forces until the end of the war in a very costly battle involving Golani and Paratrooper Brigade troops.

Syria's rebuilding of its military strength has also included test launches of ballistic missiles. Lately, the Syrians test-fired a Scud-D surface-to-surface missile, the latest version of a Soviet-era missile. The Scud-D has a 400-kilometer range and covers most of the territory of Israel.

More than a year ago the Syrians held a missile test but suffered a failure when one of them diverted from its trajectory and fell inside Turkish territory. The debris also fell in populated areas but no losses were reported. Turkey filed an official complaint with Syria, and Damascus apologized for the unusual accident.

In the Scud-D test, two missiles were fired, and the test is believed to have been successful. It is not known what type of warhead the missiles were armed with.

In addition to the larger Scud-type missiles, Syria is in possession of two smaller rockets, and both have been supplied to Hezbollah. One rocket is a 220mm rocket armed with a cluster-bomb warhead, and the other is a 305mm caliber rocket. The range of these rockets is estimated to be several dozen kilometers.

The missiles and rockets are part of an effort to compensate for the obvious weakness of the Syrian air force. This way Syrians could strike Israeli cities and also carry out accurate attacks against military targets inside the country.

The newest and most surprising aspect of the Syrian effort is taking place in its naval forces. In recent years the Syrian navy had been neglected, starting with the decommissioning of its submarines. Later, most of its missile boats came into disrepair or were not upgraded. The Syrian navy made do with the task of coastal defense, using Russian-made surface-to-sea missiles, some with long-range capability, in the area of the port of Tartus.

However, it appears that the Syrians have chosen to adopt some of the Lebanon war's lessons, and with Iranian help they have renewed emphasis on their navy. The Hezbollah success against the Israeli navy came with the use of upgraded Chinese-made C-802 missiles. Hezbollah launched these missiles against the destroyer INS Hanit, probably with the direct support of Iranian officers. A missile struck the ship, killed four crew members and caused serious damage.

Syria set to secure advanced anti-tank missiles from Russia

Damascus is close to concluding a large deal with Russia to procure thousands of advanced anti-tank missiles for the Syrian army, according to information received in Israel recently. Such a development suggests that Israel's diplomatic efforts to block the sale have failed.

According to various estimates the deal is worth several hundred million dollars and involves several thousand advanced anti-tank missiles.

For years Syria secured anti-tank missiles from the Soviet Union and later from Russia. During the war in Lebanon last summer Israel found proof that Syria had transferred to Hezbollah advanced Russian-made anti-tank missiles from its arsenal.

Evidence of the existence of these advanced missiles, the Kornet AT-14 and Metis AT-13, came in the form of crates discovered in the villages of Ghandurya and Farun, close to the Saluki River. The shipment documents showed that they had been procured by the Syrian army and transferred to Hezbollah.

Until Israel was able to produce such evidence the authorities in Moscow refused to acknowledge that advanced Russian-made weapons were being transferred to Hezbollah.

But after the war, an Israeli delegation that included members of the National Security Council and the Foreign Ministry presented the evidence to senior Russian officials.

The Russians promised to reevaluate some of the planned arms deals with Syria to ensure that advanced weaponry would not make its way to terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah.

However, there are now concerns in Israel that Russia will not keep its promise and that the deal with Damascus for the anti-tank missiles is near being finalized.

Syria stepped up its efforts to convince Russia to make the sale following the lessons it reached from the war in Lebanon. The fact that Hezbollah succeeded in delaying an Israeli armored column at the battle near the Saluki River with accurate fire from anti-tank missiles was noted favorably in Arab armies.

In retrospect, and following an IDF study, the number of tanks that were actually damaged during fighting in the war did not exceed several dozen, and in some of them the damage suffered was very minimal. But missile types like the Kornet and the Metis proved their destructive abilities and in some cases even penetrated the armor of the Merkava Mark IV, which is considered to be the best protected tank in the world.

The IDF found it difficult to counter this threat, particularly since the weapons could be fired accurately from distances of five kilometers.

One of the lessons of the war for Syria was that it needed to improve areas in which it had a relative advantage against the IDF, like the anti-tank missile, and surface-to-surface missiles that can threaten Israel's home front.

In addition, Palestinian militant groups have intensified their efforts to smuggle anti-tank missiles from Sinai to the Gaza Strip.

Armored and infantry units in the IDF are now undergoing training in tactical maneuvers that will enable them to counter anti-tank missiles. In addition, there are efforts to upgrade the anti-tank missiles in Israel's arsenal.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/828914.html

[apple_fritta]

when will syria actualy go for peace?

[SS_Charlemagne]

when will syria actualy go for peace?

¿? with a neighbour like Israel?

[Spartacus]

when will syria actualy go for peace?
"Si vis pacem para bellum", if you want peace, prepare war. :D Perhaps this is what Syria has in mind... :)

[Elemental666]

¿? with a neighbour like Israel?

Yea,because we don't have enough problems as it is...All we wan't is another mindless war against people who wish us nothing but death....
You'r ridiculous mate.

[SS_Charlemagne]

You'r ridiculous mate.

Coming from an israelian, this is a praise :D

Anyway, Israel is occupying syrian territories, it isn't?

[Elemental666]

Coming from an israelian, this is a praise :D

Anyway, Israel is occupying syrian territories, it isn't?

Yea that's a great argument :huh2: ....Very mature too.

And about accupying Syrian territories,yes,we do accupy them.War got it's cost.If you atack us with no freaking reason,don't expect us to be nice and give you you'r land back.

And by the way,it's Israeli,not Israelian.

[Highsky]

JERUSALEM - Syrian armed forces appear to be moving closer to the border with Israel and the military is being strengthened with Iranian help, an Israeli newspaper reported on Thursday.


“The Syrian armed forces are being strengthened in an unprecedented way in recent memory with the help of generous funding from Iran,” wrote Zeev Schiff, the military affairs correspondent for the liberal Haaretz daily.

“The main emphasis of the efforts has been missiles and long-range rockets to compensate for the weak air force,” he added.

“It appears that the Syrians have moved forces closer to the border with Israel on the Golan Heights.”

Schiff pointed to similar movements prior to a Syrian offensive on the same front during the Arab-Israeli Yom Kippur War in October 1973.

Reserve general Amos Gilad, an advisor to Defence Minister Amir Peretz, told public radio there was nothing to indicate an imminent Syrian attack but neither did he deny the Haaretz report.

“There is no information indicating that the Syrians are preparing to attack us in the coming months,” said Gilad.

“The fact that Syria is strengthening its military capabilities does not mean we’re going to be attacked tomorrow but certainly we need to be prepared,” he said.

He denied any comparison between the troop movements reported by Haaretz, and Egyptian and Syrian deployments prior to their two-pronged simultaneous assault on Israel in October 1973.

“There is no danger of war. There is no deployment of forces indicating that Israel would be threatened by an offensive tomorrow,” the official said.

Damascus has repeatedly demanded the return of the Golan, a strategic plateau, which Israel captured from Syria in the 1976 Arab-Israeli war and unilaterally annexed in 1981. It is now home to more than 15,000 settlers.

Peace talks between Israel and Syria collapsed in 2000, in part because of disputes over the return of the strategic plateau.

The Haaretz report came a day after Israel launched war games on the Golan Heights in what Peretz said was a bid to learn the lessons of last summer’s conflict in neighbouring Lebanon.

“Conducting these exercises in this area does not at all mean that they are connected to a possible conflict,” the defence minister said on Wednesday.

Iran is Syria’s closest ally in the region and both nations are accused by the United States of helping foment the violence in Iraq and of supporting “terrorist” groups in the region.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2007/February/middleeast_February368.xml&section=middleeast&col=

[SS_Charlemagne]

Yea that's a great argument :huh2: ....Very mature too.

And about accupying Syrian territories,yes,we do accupy them.War got it's cost.If you atack us with no freaking reason,don't expect us to be nice and give you you'r land back.

And by the way,it's Israeli,not Israelian.

Sorry, israeli mature man. The one who goes calling "ridicolous" to those don't agree with him... :wub2:

[MrWanted]

Yea that's a great argument :huh2: ....Very mature too.

And about accupying Syrian territories,yes,we do accupy them.War got it's cost.If you atack us with no freaking reason,don't expect us to be nice and give you you'r land back.

And by the way,it's Israeli,not Israelian.

Excuse me? "great argument"? You are very hypocrite sir. You started a war for just 2 captured soldiers. Now you consider Golan not enough reason to boost preparedness? Tov, keep saying such stuff, it just shows what you are made of. Toda Raba.

MW

[Elemental666]

Sorry, israeli mature man. The one who goes calling "ridicolous" to those don't agree with him... :wub2:

I don't care if you got a different opinion then me,but as long as it makes sense.
You'r just don't.
So answer me this,do you really believe that all Israelis wan't right now is another war?

Excuse me? "great argument"? You are very hypocrite sir. You started a war for just 2 captured soldiers. Now you consider Golan not enough reason to boost preparedness? Tov, keep saying such stuff, it just shows what you are made of. Toda Raba.

MW

Just 2 soldiers?..........I won't even bother commenting on that one.
And where did i say that Syria shouldn't prepare itself?Go right ahead,i don't mind.
Just shows what i'm made of?Yea go ahead and act like you know me.After all i'm just a citizen in the little satans country am i...

[MrWanted]

I don't care if you got a different opinion then me,but as long as it makes sense.
You'r just don't.
So answer me this,do you really believe that all Israelis wan't right now is another war?

I hope this make sence to you: All Israeli's are afraid of what the future will bring in terms of war, occupation and suffering. They have no stomatch for war now but they are currently between a wall and a hard place.

Just 2 soldiers?..........I won't even bother commenting on that one.
And where did i say that Syria shouldn't prepare itself?Go right ahead,i don't mind.
Just shows what i'm made of?Yea go ahead and act like you know me.After all i'm just a citizen in the little satans country am i...


I don't care where you're from or who you are, you are still a hypocrite with such a comparison. And indeed when you don't have anything to say(2soldiers ) better not commenting at all.

[Elemental666]

I hope this make sence to you: All Israeli's are afraid of what the future will bring in terms of war, occupation and suffering. They have no stomatch for war now but they are currently between a wall and a hard place.



I don't care where you're from or who you are, you are still a hypocrite with such a comparison. And indeed when you don't have anything to say(2soldiers ) better not commenting at all.

What normal human won't be afraid when he is sorrounded by hostile countries that outnumber him by amazing amounts?
If a war comes,well we will fight,not much choice there.

As for the hypocrite part.You should really open you eyes as a moderator and see what kind of comments people leave on this site and you guys don't even bother to do something about them.When an Israeli member states his opinion,he automatcly labeled as a hypocrit and a lier.
So if that's the way this site works,no problem...Have a good day sir.

[MrWanted]

What normal human won't be afraid when he is sorrounded by hostile countries that outnumber him by amazing amounts?
If a war comes,well we will fight,not much choice there.

As for the hypocrite part.You should really open you eyes as a moderator and see what kind of comments people leave on this site and you guys don't even bother to do something about them.When an Israeli member states his opinion,he automatcly labeled as a hypocrit and a lier.
So if that's the way this site works,no problem...Have a good day sir.

Hypocrite yes but where did I say Liar? And please you're the last one to predict us about moral values and how we should run this forum.

BTW stop that pathetic i-am-a-victim-of-anti-Semite nonsense, I won't tolerate it. How low can you go?

[SS_Charlemagne]

I don't care if you got a different opinion then me,but as long as it makes sense.
You'r just don't.
So answer me this,do you really believe that all Israelis wan't right now is another war?



Just 2 soldiers?..........I won't even bother commenting on that one.
And where did i say that Syria shouldn't prepare itself?Go right ahead,i don't mind.
Just shows what i'm made of?Yea go ahead and act like you know me.After all i'm just a citizen in the little satans country am i...

Allow me to be serious for once... where in this thread I have given my opinion about anything? I made a remark answering to @apple fritta, yes. I only pointed Syria and Israel are hostile neighbours. Where is the non-sense? Anyway, you say Israel doesn't want the war with Syria. I am not sure, at least about Israel's government, but even in this case, seems there are other powers don't wanting the peace precisely:

U.S. hardens line on talks between Jerusalem, Damascus

The United States demanded that Israel desist from even exploratory contacts with Syria, of the sort that would test whether Damascus is serious in its declared intentions to hold peace talks with Israel.

In meetings with Israeli officials recently, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was forceful in expressing Washington's view on the matter.

The American argument is that even "exploratory talks" would be considered a prize in Damascus, whose policy and actions continue to undermine Lebanon's sovereignty and the functioning of its government, while it also continues to stir unrest in Iraq, to the detriment of the U.S. presence there.

It is also known that Syria, like Iran, continues to provide Hezbollah with arms and equipment.

According to senior Israeli officials, the American position vis-a-vis Syria, as it was expressed by the secretary of state, reflects a hardening of attitudes.

When Israeli officials asked Secretary Rice about the possibility of exploring the seriousness of Syria in its calls for peace talks, her response was unequivocal: Don't even think about it.

Israeli officials, including those in the intelligence community, are divided over the degree to which Syrian President Bashar Assad is serious and sincere in his call for peace talks with Israel.

One view describes Assad's call as a propaganda campaign, and insists that the Syrian leader is not serious. Among those holding this view is Mossad chief Meir Dagan.

In Military Intelligence the view differs. There are those who say that Assad is serious in his call for peace talks, but also say that this does not mean that those talks would be easy for Israel. They even suggest that there is a very good chance that the talks would fail.

It is also known that the Syrians have recently tried to send messages to the Israeli leadership through intermediaries in Europe. These are English nationals and former American diplomats.

The assessment is that the Syrian efforts are mostly the work of associates of Syria's foreign minister, Walid Mualem. The interlocutors approach various Israelis in order to cultivate ties with officials.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has so far adopted the strict American position not to respond to the Syrian feelers.

On the other hand, at the Foreign Ministry and within the defense establishment, there is a greater degree of openness to the offers, and the overall view is that the door should not be closed entirely to the Syrians. Similarly, many believe that the Syrian offers should be tested for their sincerity.

Among the leading individuals supporting this view is Defense Minister Amir Peretz.

Nonetheless, there is strict adherence to the principle of not acting against the views of the prime minister and of coordinating all matters with him.

At the Defense Ministry, they are aware that Syria is playing a very active role in Hezbollah's efforts to replenish its arsenal, and in particular its rocket stockpile. It appears that Hezbollah has already managed, since the war, to build up a stockpile of some 10,000 short-range rockets.

Syria assists Iran in arming Hezbollah with longer-range rockets.

According to one report, the Syrians have accepted an Iranian proposal for their agents to be more active in commanding the Hezbollah's long-range rocket forces.

Meanwhile, Peretz responded on Thursday to a story in Haaretz regarding Syrian efforts to rebuild its own military strength, saying that Israel should avoid making statements on developments in Syria.

Peretz was speaking at the weekly defense assessment in his office with senior officers in the defense establishment.

He said that there should be an effort to "avoid an escalation of words." The situation on the ground and along the border with Syria "will be evaluated on the basis of facts, and the IDF will prepare accordingly," he added.

The Haaretz report struck a chord in the Arab media, which gave it a leading position in its news and analysis items.

Three Syrian political analysts and politicians were interviewed on national television and denied the report on Syrian arms procurement and testing of ballistic missiles. However, all three emphasized that if there is no progress toward peace with Israel, then it is the "natural right" of Syria to take other types of action in order to liberate the Golan Heights.

Muhammed Habesh, a Syrian legislator, in an interview with the Al Arabiya satellite channel, said that "if Israel attempts to do something stupid, it will pay a hefty price for it."

He stressed that there has been no change in the border area in terms of the deployment of forces, and added that Syria was "ready for any eventuality."

It was also announced Thursday that 10,000 tons of apples will be delivered to Syria from the Golan Heights, under the auspices of the Red Cross.

The first three Red Cross trucks will cross into Syria on Monday morning. The transfer of the crop will continue for a period of 8-10 weeks. It is the third time a shipment of apples produced by Druze in the villages on the Golan Heights is being carried out, and it is expected to be the largest ever.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/829441.html

[Elemental666]

Hypocrite yes but where did I say Liar? And please you're the last one to predict us about moral values and how we should run this forum.

BTW stop that pathetic i-am-a-victim-of-anti-Semite nonsense, I won't tolerate it. How low can you go?

What?
Who the hell said something about anti-semitisem????
If you wan't to ban me go right ahead,i have seen enough hatred on this site already,but at least don't come up with pathetic claims like that.

[apple_fritta]

Israeli dude has some good points there....

[MrWanted]

What?
Who the hell said something about anti-semitisem????
If you wan't to ban me go right ahead,i have seen enough hatred on this site already,but at least don't come up with pathetic claims like that.
I pointed out your hypocrisy to which you responded:"Just shows what i'm made of?Yea go ahead and act like you know me.After all i'm just a citizen in the little satans country am i...".

If you wish to leave this forum is your choice but if I wanted to throw you out, I would've done it already. So for the second time I suggest to stop your i-am-a-victim act of yours.

[apple_fritta]

chill guys...war wont solve anything.

[mango994]

Mrwanted,
Every country has a legitimation to start a war for every violent attack.
"Just two soldiers"? two soldiers is enough to declare war on those who raise their flags beyond our border.

[Voozio]

They also seem to (always) forget the bombarding of Shelomi village to divert attention from kidnapping. :wub2:

[SS_Charlemagne]

Mrwanted,
Every country has a legitimation to start a war for every violent attack.
"Just two soldiers"? two soldiers is enough to declare war on those who raise their flags beyond our border.

Then when the US kidnapps iranian diplomats in Iraq, Iran has the right to declare the war, has not?

[mango994]

Of course they have.
But they won't.

[SS_Charlemagne]

Of course they have.
But they won't.

True, they are not idiots. Perhaps Israel and US are so idiot to launch an attack first - and then charge with the fault of the war...

[Voozio]

True, they are not idiots. Perhaps Israel and US are so idiot to launch an attack first - and then charge with the fault of the war...

Wake up. The world is not some court of law.
You threatening us? Prepare to face the consequences.

[mango994]

The situation Israel was in is not like Iran's situation.
Besides, a VIOLENT attack and VIOLATION of border is way more critical than an arrest of diplomatic outside Iran.

[SS_Charlemagne]

The situation Israel was in is not like Iran's situation.
Besides, a VIOLENT attack and VIOLATION of border is way more critical than an arrest of diplomatic outside Iran.

If there is an israeli-american attack against iranian's nuclear infrastructure, then we will see what is the ****ing situation.

[SS_Charlemagne]

Wake up. The world is not some court of law.
You threatening us? Prepare to face the consequences.

Yes. And who is threatening in the recent times? have you read the "wise" words (sarcasm) of Cheney?

[MrWanted]

To our hypocrite Zionists here:

It's really funny how someone tries to JUSTIFY something while he doesn't believe in some universal "court of LAW" or something like it, whatever you want to call it.


You forgot the lead up to the capturing of 2 soldiers. Besides they were operating just across the border. Shelomi rockets were not before the capturing those two SOLDIERS and for every one of those rockets there were tens of Israeli violations on the Lebanese sovereignty.

The diplomats where in Iranian consulate in Arbil. They have diplomatic immunity and they were civilians. But I understand your confusion. In a culture were civilians under occupation get "nabbed" but the soldier get "kidnapped" is difficult to pay any attention to small nuances.

[Voozio]

Yes. And who is threatening in the recent times? have you read the "wise" words (sarcasm) of Cheney?

You mean this?

Cheney: All options on the table

Meanwhile, Vice President Dick Cheney lashed out at a UN-defiant Iran Saturday, warning anew that "all options" are available in dealing with the Midddle East nation over its nuclear program.

Cheney, speaking at a joint news conference with Australia's Prime Minister John Howard, said the United States was working with its allies to persuade Iran to give up its nuclear weapons programs and that it was Washington's preference for that to happen peacefully.

"But all options are still on the table," Cheney told reporters.

The next step toward getting Iran to abandon its nuclear programs was still being debated, he said.

"It would be a serious mistake if a nation such as Iran became a nuclear power," Cheney said.


I did.

But somehow they dont mention those "Death to Iran!" chants at the end of his speech. Oh wait... :wub2:

[Voozio]

To our hypocrite Zionists here:
It's really funny how someone tries to JUSTIFY something while he doesn't believe in some universal "court of LAW" or something like it, whatever you want to call it.

You forgot the lead up to the capturing of 2 soldiers. Besides they were operating just across the border. Shelomi rockets were not before the capturing those two SOLDIERS and for every one of those rockets there were tens of Israeli violations on the Lebanese sovereignty.

Same old tune. I cleary remember the 1st day of war, when i rushed to openlebanon.org to try and see if theres any details from lebanese side.
I remember happy Nasralllah shining at those flashlights with the smile on his face and videos of people celebrating the succesfull kidnapping.
Of course not everyone were happy. Only the usual Shia supporters.
Why haven't i heard those claims at this day?
It is only when crap hit the fan... all of a sudden "corrections" is started to pop up.
Oh, miracle! Now, all of a sudden it wasnt a succesfull and well-planned operation by brave hizballah's fighters, but merely a self-defence action against this border-fence patrol jeep with reservists (at their last day of yearly service) in it, that somehow appeard at the lebanons territory!
And Shelomi? Oh yes! Of course they got bombed after the kidnapping... again! and again! and again!
But that (for some reason) doesn't mean that the original bombarding is not happened at the time of the kidnapping, as a diversion, which is unfortunatelly succeeded.

P.S.: If only i'd have a dollar for every time im answering this nonsense... :wub2:

[mango994]

But there's one problem MrWanted..
South lebanon wasn't lebanese soverignity. It was Hizbolla soverignity.

[MrWanted]

Same old tune. I cleary remember the 1st day of war, when i rushed to openlebanon.org to try and see if theres any details from lebanese side.
I remember happy Nasralllah shining at those flashlights with the smile on his face and videos of people celebrating the succesfull kidnapping.
Of course not everyone were happy. Only the usual Shia supporters.
Why haven't i heard those claims at this day?
It is only when crap hit the fan... all of a sudden "corrections" is started to pop up.
Oh, miracle! Now, all of a sudden it wasnt a succesfull and well-planned operation by brave hizballah's fighters, but merely a self-defence action against this border-fence patrol jeep with reservists (at their last day of yearly service) in it, that somehow appeard at the lebanons territory!
And Shelomi? Oh yes! Of course they got bombed after the kidnapping... again! and again! and again!
But that (for some reason) doesn't mean that the original bombarding is not happened at the time of the kidnapping, as a diversion, which is unfortunatelly succeeded.

P.S.: If only i'd have a dollar for every time im answering this nonsense... :wub2:

This has been discussed for zillions of times now. You may choose your version of story the results are the same. While Israel hit the civillians and their infrastructure, It also lost lot's of credibility, the weak points became clear and the undefeatable army ended were it started. The economical down fall on Israeli side was huge and leadership has been exposed. I know you see this as good points, let's agree on this point, even though we have different motivations. :D

[Voozio]

This has been discussed for zillions of times now. You may choose your version of story the results are the same. While Israel hit the civillians and their infrastructure, It also lost lot's of credibility, the weak points became clear and the undefeatable army ended were it started. The economical down fall on Israeli side was huge and leadership has been exposed. I know you see this as good points, let's agree on this point, even though we have different motivations. :D

You are right twice in here acctually :)
Whatever version of the story me and you choose - it doesn't matter.
Because the widely excepted version, is not the one you are talking about.
Your version is maybe accepted among some Muslim countries mostly.

Economical downfall? What do you mean? There was a damage of course.
But downfall? Can you elaborate?
Some weak points in our tactics popped up. True. Such as using tanks against heavily Rpg-armed militia in CQB (villages and generally limited areas) for once.
I must say that i hope lesson learned.
And our leadership? Well... what can i tell you? Olmert and Perets is a joke.
I said it before the war and i said the same after. The war hasn't changed much. But you are right. We agree on that for the whole different reasons.

[apple_fritta]

war wont solve nothing, chill.

[Suryoyo]

But there's one problem MrWanted..
South lebanon wasn't lebanese soverignity. It was Hizbolla soverignity.

Hizbollah is Lebanon.

[mango994]

Hizbolla is Iran.

[Suryoyo]

Hizbolla is Iran.

no,

Hizbollah is Lebanon.

[mango994]

Don't we agree that the lebanese government had no power in south lebanon? You can claim that Hizbolla is Lebanon for years, it won't change the fact that Hizbolla was the soveriginity in south lebanon, and not the lebanese government. The Lebanese government is worldwidely recognized as the representer of Lebanon, not Hizbolla. So you can keep claiming.

[Suryoyo]

Don't we agree that the lebanese government had no power in south lebanon? You can claim that Hizbolla is Lebanon for years, it won't change the fact that Hizbolla was the soveriginity in south lebanon, and not the lebanese government. The Lebanese government is worldwidely recognized as the representer of Lebanon, not Hizbolla. So you can keep claiming.

if lebanon was a real democracy, Hassan Nasrallah would be prime minister. therfore he is the real leader of lebanon. and Hizbollah is Lebanon.

[mango994]

Yet your country is divided to so many sects, that lines must be drawn.
The prime minister is the Sunnis', and every sect has its saved roles in the country.

[Suryoyo]

Yet your country is divided to so many sects, that lines must be drawn.
The prime minister is the Sunnis', and every sect has its saved roles in the country.

my country? im not lebanese.

the lines are un democratic, therfore the lebanese goverment arent legal and Hassan Nasrallah and Hizbollah is the leaders of Lebanon.

[mango994]

Sorry forgot..

Why are they un-democratic? Every sect has its part.

[Suryoyo]

Sorry forgot..

Why are they un-democratic? Every sect has its part.

a democracy can not have lockt positions for sects or religions. the positions must be divided fairly according to the election.