NATO & America losses in Serbia 1999.

[spirit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD1V59N3K5c

Macedonian brooders in action.
Video take during the Macedonian war, shortly after Kosovo war.

[serb08]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD1V59N3K5c

Macedonian brooders in action.
Video take during the Macedonian war, shortly after Kosovo war.
this is why they dont give albanian independence

[Ovich]

Thanks for the links gmi serbia. Unlike some people in this thread claimed, there's not a single piece of B2 wreckage in the exhibit. Only 2 manned planes were shot down by the Yugoslav Armed Forces: An F-16 and a F-117. No more, no less.

Most crushed out of serbia or were damaged. Like 2nd f-117

[racerx11080]

Here is a picture of my good friend Cy Mackintosh from Scotland... he was in bosnian brigade called "Staro bosanski Kraljevi" - " Old bosnian kings" fighting the rapist and genocidal serb aggresor... He served in UK military and he was trained there.. when he saw what was happening in bosnia and croatia he came to croatia and fought there in ranks of famous croatian military brigade "Zenge" .. after 1 year in croatia he came to Bosnia to join bosnian army... He always wore British Uniform and he was an excelent soldier... this pic was taked right after he came from the frontline :) :D

Shto izgleda kao da je retardiran, koliki mu je IQ 63?

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Most crushed out of serbia or were damaged. Like 2nd f-117And where's the evidence for that?

[rabs]

And where's the evidence for that?

Burned by president Bush duh.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Burned by president Bush duh.Before he became President? Or Bush The Elder...from the future?

[spirit]

Most crushed out of serbia or were damaged. Like 2nd f-117

And where's the evidence for that?

Burned by president Bush duh.

Before he became President? Or Bush The Elder...from the future?

Yes reports from “250. AIR DEFENSE MISSILE BRIGADE” say that there was:
1 F-117A shutdown and 1 was damaged, 1 f-16 was shutdown and one B2 was shut down but is crashed some where outside Serbia (I’m sorry but I cant remember, I thing it crashed in Romania).
Ill try to find that report

[rabs]

Yes reports from “250. AIR DEFENSE MISSILE BRIGADE” say that there was:
1 F-117A shutdown and 1 was damaged, 1 f-16 was shutdown and one B2 was shut down but is crashed some where outside Serbia (I’m sorry but I cant remember, I thing it crashed in Romania).
Ill try to find that report

That is crazy talk, we still have 21 B-2s. Only 1 F-117 was shot down and I think for sure there were more conventional planes shot down.

The shoot down of the F-117 had absloutetly nothing to do with radar and everything to do with crappy mission planning.

Not to mention when your dealing with an airframe like the B-2, you knick the damn thing and its likely to come down, its teetering on crashing in the air as it is so the chances of it going very far after being hit with a SAM are not very high. Then there is the fact that well I dont think they have ejection seats, and no B-2 pilots have came up as dead.

[spirit]

That is crazy talk, we still have 21 B-2s. Only 1 F-117 was shot down and I think for sure there were more conventional planes shot down.

The shoot down of the F-117 had absloutetly nothing to do with radar and everything to do with crappy mission planning.

Not to mention when your dealing with an airframe like the B-2, you knick the damn thing and its likely to come down, its teetering on crashing in the air as it is so the chances of it going very far after being hit with a SAM are not very high. Then there is the fact that well I dont think they have ejection seats, and no B-2 pilots have came up as dead.

Dude your F-117A was seen on Serbian radars (old P-12 and P-18), and was hit but two S-125 NEVA rockets on 27.05.1990…
F-117 is not “invisible”, it’s just hard to LOCK ON and continue being LOCKED on target.
Serbia has good radars like AN/TPS-70, AN/TPS-63 and C-600 but they are usles against „stelth“aircraft.

[spirit]

Pukovnik Zoltan Dani prvi put govori za novine o obaranju americkog bombardera F-117A kod Budjanovaca
SVEDOK
Sredoje Simic

Malo sremsko selo Budjanovci.
Ovde su naši branioci, treće ratne noći, NATO snagama udarili najjači šamar. Oborili su "nevidljivi" lovac-bombarder F-117A, zvani "noćni soko", perjanicu američke "stelt" tehnologije i poslednju reč vojne vazduhoplovne industrije. U smiraj 27. marta 1999. godine, raketaši 3. diviziona 250. brigade PVO spremni su čekali uljeze. Oko 21 sat, jedna za drugom, u razmaku od pet sekundi, u nebo su poletele dve "neve" (odavno proglašene za zastarele rakete). Sve se odigralo kao na filmu. Vatrene strele pretvorile su F-117A u užarenu loptu, koja se, ubrzo, stropoštala u blatnjavu sremsku oranicu. Očevici, tamošnji paori, kažu: "Skinuli su ga ko vrapca"! Tajna brižljivo čuvane "stelt" tehnologije rasprsnula se kao balon od sapunice. Raketaši 3. diviziona 250. brigade PVO i njihov komandant, pukovnik Zoltan Dani(46) otišli su u legendu i ušli u istorijske čitanke. Vest da je naša protivvazdušna odbrana oborila "nevidljivi" avion F-117A, čedo i ponos ratnog vazduhoplovstva SAD, odjeknula je kao "grom iz vedrog neba", postala je prvorazredna svetska senzacija, a u Pentagonu (i Briselu) su se dugo oporavljali od "sremskog šoka". Taj dogadjaj je bio najveći udarac za ratno vazduhoplovstvo SAD do sada. U razvoj aviona F-117A Amerikanci su ulozili više od sto milijardi dolara (jedan kilogram "noćnog sokola" košta kao i 1,5 kg zlata). Dve godine posle... Glavni junak drame, pukovnik Zoltan Dani, "komandant sazdan od ljudskih i vojničkih vrlina", razgrće sećanja. - Obuka na raketnim sistemima je vrlo komplikovana i složena - kaže ekskluzivno za "Svedok". - Sticajem okolnosti, NATO agresiju naš 3. divizion je dočekao u top formi. Tog 27. marta, nalazili smo na položaju u širem regionu Šimanovaca. Prema nama su, iz različitih pravaca, išla četiri aviona. Radarom posebne namene, na vreme smo, na visini od 8.000 metara, uočili F-117A. To je bilo dovoljno da odlično obučena posada odradi drugi deo posla sa nišanskim radarom i raketnim sistemom "neva", čiji je domet 18 kilometara po visini i 17,5 u daljinu. Kad je "nevidljivi" ušao u naše "dvorište" više mu nije bilo spasa. Jurile su ga dve rakete. Sve je bilo gotovo za 18 sekundi! Nije imao vremena za manevar, da pobegne sa naše teritorije i da se, eventualno, prinudno spusti. Pogodak je bio izuzetno precizan. Do te noći, 27. marta, famozni "noćni soko" je harao nebom Somalije, Paname, Libije, Iraka... U zalivskom ratu učestvovala su 42 aviona F-117A i u preko 1.300 borbenih letova, uništivši više od 30 odsto ciljeva "od izuzetnog značaja". Ali, nijedan nikad nije čak ni ogreban, a kamoli pogodjen ili oboren. Smatralo se da je nevidljiv i zato neuništiv. Američki "nebeski bauk" je, prvi put, skončao u crnici Srema. Krila su mu slomljena u Budjanovcima. Najlepši je suvenir 250. raketne brigade PVO koja je, i zbog toga, odlikovana Ordenom narodnog heroja. Kod nas, i u svetu, mnogo se spekulisalo kako su nasi raketaši uspeli da otkriju i obore "noćnog sokola". Tvrdi se da je ova spektakularna akcija izvedena zahvaljujući vremešnom uredjaju, starom ruskom radaru, sa elektronskim cevima, koji radi veoma kratko, a onda se gasi da se ohladi. Zbog toga, navodno, pilot aviona F-117A nije znao da je uhvaćen u radarski snop. Pukovnik Zoltan Dani se na ovo zagonetno smeška, i kaže: - Tada smo F-117A prvi put uočili. Primenili smo posebne taktičke metode, koji su naša tajna. Naziv "stelt" znaci da se radi o avionu manje radarske uočljivosti, a ne da je nevidljiv. Saznali smo kako može lako da se uoči i to primenili u praksi. Radi se o specifičnoj inovaciji, jedinstvenoj do sada, ali to, nažalost, ne možemo da patentiramo. Na radaru se pojavio obris koji je govorio da se, možda, radi o "stelt" avionu. Kad sam to uočio, ništa nisam govorio posadi da ne bih dizao "temperaturu". Nisam hteo da opterećujem saborce. Trebala nam je hladna glava, mirna ruka i brza reakcija. Vreme u kome radar za otrivanje i nišanjenje aviona sme da "zrači" meri se sekundama. Ako se to "zaboravi", lovac začas postaje žrtva. Rizik je veliki pa se uvek, pre svega, vodi bitka s vremenom, često i delovima sekunde. Pilot u avionu, kaže pukovnik Dani, ima uredjaj koji mu signalizira da je ozračen nišanskim radadrom. On čak i ne mora da reaguje. Protivradarska raketa će sama da poleti ako "nanjuši" izvor radarskog zračenja. Zbog toga što o tome posada nije vodila računa, poginuo je i general Ljubiša Veličković. - Bilo mi je najvažnije da sačuvam ljudstvo i tehniku, a da zadatak izvršimo koliko god nam mogućnosti dozvole - priča pukovnik Dani. - Svih 78 dana NATO agresije, za mene je to bilo Sveto pismo. Gadjali su nas 23 puta protivradarskim raketama, a u dva navrata vodjenim bombama i uvek su promašili. Naš najveći uspeh je što niko nije čak ni ogreban, što tehnika nije uništena. Često, u šali, kažem: "Pobedili smo NATO sa 2:0". Jer, pored "noćnog sokola", oborili smo, u noći 1. na 2. maj, američki F-16, koji je pao kod Šapca. A, prešli smo preko 100.000 kilometara seleći se s položaja na položaj. Sve vreme rata nisu uspeli da nas nanjuše. Jednom smo se sa svom tehnikom uvukli u neko smetlište i tako se dobro maskirali da čak i naše starešine nisu mogle da nas nadju. Iskusni raketaš, pukovnik Zoltan Dani, koji je sa odličnom ocenom završio Generalštabnu školu, ne prihvata da je "glavni junak drame" u Budjanovcima. - Za obaranje neprijateljskog aviona, a da ne budete otkriveni i uništeni, potrebna je stručna i savršeno uigrana ekipa - kaže naš sagovornik. - Zato je teško i nezahvalno bilo koga posebno izdvajati. Ipak, najviše zasluga za rušenje F-117A imaju operateri praćenja Dragan Matić i Dejan Tiosavljević, kao i oficir za vodjenje Senad Muminović. U posadi treće smene bili su i Darko Nikolić, DJordje Aničić i Vladimir Ljubenković. Svaki od njih je, na svoj način, dao ogromni doprinos. Bez obzira sto sam odabrao cilj i odredio ga za uništenje, da nije bilo njih, ne bismo ga oborili. Lovci-bombarderi F-117A i F-16 nisu jedini NATO avioni u koje su se zarile rakete 3. diviziona 250. raketne brigade PVO. - Za ta dva aviona imamo "crno na belo" da su oboreni - priča pukovnik Dani. - Pouzdano znamo, medjutim, da smo srušili i američki strateški bombarder B-2A, po imenu "Duh Misurija", koji je pao u Spačvanskoj šumi, 15 kilometara od naše granice, ali to ne možemo da dokažemo. Amerikanci su, ipak, posredno priznali njegovo uništenje, time što "Duh Misurija" više nije na spisku njihovih borbenih aviona. Naš divizion je pogodio još dva NATO aviona, koji su, iako ostećeni, uspeli da prinudno slete van naše teritorije. Radi se o još jednom F-117A i "marijeru" koji je "strelom 2" pogodio stariji vodnik Zoran Tepavac.

RATNO IME GVOZDEN DJUKIC
Dugo su mediji tvrdili da je jedinicom koja je oborila F-117A komandovao pukovnik Gvozden DJukić. Naš svedok razotkriva (i) ovu enigmu. - Radi konspiracije, svaki naš starešina je, čim je počela NATO agresija, dobio pseudonim. Koristili smo ga svakodnevno i svuda gde smo se kretali, pa i u štampi. Moje ratno ime je bilo Gvozden DJukić. Sve do nedavno javnost nije znala pravo ime komandanta 3. diviziona 250. brigade PVO - kaže pukovnik Dani.

NA POSAO I JAŠUĆI
Pukovnik Zoltan Dani deli sudbinu na hiljade oficira naše vojske. I on je beskućnik. Sa suprugom Irenom, službenicom u SO Pančevo, dva sina i ćerkom, živi kod tašte, u malom selu Skorenovac, kod Kovina, u kući od "nabijača"(Dani: "Dobra je. Leti drzi 'ladovinu, a zimi se brzo zagreje"). Svakog dana putuje na posao u Beograd. Nastavnik je na Vojnoj akademiji, na Katedri za naoružanje i vojnu opremu. Nedavno je, uz pomoć rodjaka, kupio automobil. Pre toga je ustajao u 3,45 sati, biciklom išao u šest kilometara udaljeni Kovin. Odatle autobusom u Pančevo, pa vojnim prevozom do Beograda. Kući se vraćao oko 17,30. U vreme sankcija, kad nije bilo prevoza i benzina, nekoliko puta je u kasarnu u Smederevu, gde je tada radio, stigao jašući, 10-12 kilometara po snegu i studeni, kobilu "Cilu". Do povratka kući o kobili je brinuo pastir koji je, u blizini kasarne, čuvao ovce. - Uh, ne pisite to o "Cili". Zezace me drugovi - kaže pukovnik Dani.

HRVATI NUDILI 500.000 MARAKA
Rat u Hrvatskoj 1991. godine zatekao me na mestu komandanta raketne baze u Zaboku. Bili smo u blokadi i okruženju, ali smo brzo našli rešenje. Nalazio sam se, pre toga, u ekipi koja je išla u pomoć jedinicama JNA u Sloveniji. Znao sam da će se i nama to desiti, da će nam preseći snabdevanje, "zavrnuti" struju i vodu. Zato smo se dobro pripremili – priča Dani i nastavlja: – Kad su nam 13. septembra 1991. isljučili struju, vodu i telefon, naredio sam ljudima da zauzmu svoja mesta, aktiviraju naše izvore napajanja i uključe sva svetla u bazi. Kod Hrvata je nastala panika. Iste noći uhapsili su desetak svojih ljudi odgovornih za snabdevanje. – Posle sedam dana se pojavio njihov oficir sa belom zastavom. Tražio je komandanta. Kad sam pošao prema njemu, rekao sam našem snajperisti: "Oni mene drže na nišanu, a ti drži njih. Ako ja padnem, nemoj da on slučajno ne padne". Tražili su da se predamo, ali nismo pristali. Bivši komandant naše jedinice, major Ivan Peica je prešao na njihovu stranu i bio je zainteresovan da zarobe bar jednu jedinicu PVO. Doneli su mi tašnu sa 500.000 maraka. Hteli su da prodam jedinicu. Nudili su da predjem na njihovu stranu ili da odem bilo gde. Rekli su da su spremni da plate i više. Sve sam odbio. Uspeli smo da izadjemo iz blokade 27. novembra, posle dvadesetak pregovora, i da izvučemo svu opremu - kaže pukovnik Zoltan Dani, koji je, za ratne zasluge, dna puta vanredno unapredjen.

PROSLAVILI UZ PIVO
Radili smo smireno, staloženo, profesionalno i, što je posebno važno, jako brzo. Čim smo ispalili rakete, promenili smo položaj – kaže Zoltan. – Nedugo posle toga, došli su policajci iz Pećinaca i rekli da smo oborili F-117A. Možete da zamislite našu radost i ponos. Proslavili smo uz neko pivo.

http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swscan000466aa.jpg

[Relikt]

Dude your F-117A was seen on Serbian radars (old P-12 and P-18), and was hit but two S-125 NEVA rockets on 27.05.1990…
F-117 is not “invisible”, it’s just hard to LOCK ON and continue being LOCKED on target.
Serbia has good radars like AN/TPS-70, AN/TPS-63 and C-600 but they are usles against „stelth“aircraft.

We cant prove nothing about second Nighthawk or first Spirit. There is possibility that B-2 "shoot" was in fact jamming create by Prowler. Also in US and in EU many folks watch every takeoff and landing so they will see that there is some missing B-2 bombers.
As I remember general W.Clark said that NATO can affored lost of 100 jets. Even if we down 100 jets we would still lost that war. Problem with our thinking is that we covert defeat in victory. NATO didnt lost that war. We did.

S-600 good radar???? For '70 maybe but today it is relic.

Yes Serbia have one AN/TPS 70. Croatia have five AN/TPS 117 Seek Igloo. Each radar is much more advanced then AN/TPS 70. Bulgaria have excellent Mig-29s and have it in nice numbers. About Hungary I dont want to talk. They will get JAS-39 and still have mig-29s also in future they will get Eurofighter. And what is with us? We arent so poor. We infact are richer then Bulgaria and on similar level with Croatia. And still we are far back with airdefence or airforce. Similar situation was in '90. Bulgaria and Hungary had much better jets and SAMs. I think both countries had SA-5 (S-200). Bulgaria had Mig-25 for recon while we use Jastreb(subsonic jet) :)

We never had real airforce or airdefence. In fact we were closest to that in 1941 we product Hurricanes and one best early WW2 intereceptors IK-3 which was our design. Also we start to create good airforce in early '50 when US jets came (F-86D which had radar) but we break from NATO and start to play two chair game. In the end we lost that game (all former states of SFRY are lossers not just Serbia).

here is example

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/F-84D-Yu.jpg

F-86D it time when we get it it was most advanced Sabre.
But when we start two chair play we couldnt get anything advanced from any worldpower. So we stuck with mig-21bis as best jet we had when our neighbors had Mig-23 and Mig-25. We had NEVA (SA-3) and KUB and our neighbors had SA-5(S-200), BUK and S-300.

So knowing what our airdefence look like in '80 I really think we can be very proud what we achive during '99. Many forget but we down many cruise missiles which all had some targets so we safe many lives downing those Tomhawks. As I remember our PVO priority were cruise missiles not jets.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Oh yeah, Tomahawks are sub-sonic and I don't think they're made to evade enemy fire.

[Relikt]

Oh yeah, Tomahawks are sub-sonic and I don't think they're made to evade enemy fire.

Yes but there are stealth too. One tomahawk hit target 2500m from my building.
Our air-defense couldnt down them when they flying over civilian parts of city. So you have only one option down them before they get to city. We use for this air-force(low flying attack jets) and MANPADS.

Also I dont know why I write all this to you when I was there when bombs are falling not you.

[Dolphin]

We cant prove nothing about second Nighthawk or first Spirit. There is possibility that B-2 "shoot" was in fact jamming create by Prowler. Also in US and in EU many folks watch every takeoff and landing so they will see that there is some missing B-2 bombers.
As I remember general W.Clark said that NATO can affored lost of 100 jets. Even if we down 100 jets we would still lost that war. Problem with our thinking is that we covert defeat in victory. NATO didnt lost that war. We did.

S-600 good radar???? For '70 maybe but today it is relic.

Yes Serbia have one AN/TPS 70. Croatia have five AN/TPS 117 Seek Igloo. Each radar is much more advanced then AN/TPS 70. Bulgaria have excellent Mig-29s and have it in nice numbers. About Hungary I dont want to talk. They will get JAS-39 and still have mig-29s also in future they will get Eurofighter. And what is with us? We arent so poor. We infact are richer then Bulgaria and on similar level with Croatia. And still we are far back with airdefence or airforce. Similar situation was in '90. Bulgaria and Hungary had much better jets and SAMs. I think both countries had SA-5 (S-200). Bulgaria had Mig-25 for recon while we use Jastreb(subsonic jet) :)

We never had real airforce or airdefence. In fact we were closest to that in 1941 we product Hurricanes and one best early WW2 intereceptors IK-3 which was our design. Also we start to create good airforce in early '50 when US jets came (F-86D which had radar) but we break from NATO and start to play two chair game. In the end we lost that game (all former states of SFRY are lossers not just Serbia).

here is example

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/F-84D-Yu.jpg

F-86D it time when we get it it was most advanced Sabre.
But when we start two chair play we couldnt get anything advanced from any worldpower. So we stuck with mig-21bis as best jet we had when our neighbors had Mig-23 and Mig-25. We had NEVA (SA-3) and KUB and our neighbors had SA-5(S-200), BUK and S-300.

So knowing what our airdefence look like in '80 I really think we can be very proud what we achive during '99. Many forget but we down many cruise missiles which all had some targets so we safe many lives downing those Tomhawks. As I remember our PVO priority were cruise missiles not jets.

I like the photo you posted of the F-86D in your national colors.:-)

[spirit]

If that report was on Albanian, I would understand you, but...
F-117 was seen on Serbian radar, long enough to fire two missiles, it not our fault that it flew write over Serbian AA battery…

Radarom posebne namene, na vreme smo, na visini od 8.000 metara, uočili F-117A. To je bilo dovoljno da odlično obučena posada odradi drugi deo posla sa nišanskim radarom i raketnim sistemom "neva", čiji je domet 18 kilometara po visini i 17,5 u daljinu. Kad je "nevidljivi" ušao u naše "dvorište" više mu nije bilo spasa. Jurile su ga dve rakete. Sve je bilo gotovo za 18 sekundi! Nije imao vremena za manevar, da pobegne sa naše teritorije i da se, eventualno, prinudno spusti. Pogodak je bio izuzetno precizan

Kod nas, i u svetu, mnogo se spekulisalo kako su nasi raketaši uspeli da otkriju i obore "noćnog sokola". Tvrdi se da je ova spektakularna akcija izvedena zahvaljujući vremešnom uredjaju, starom ruskom radaru, sa elektronskim cevima, koji radi veoma kratko, a onda se gasi da se ohladi. Zbog toga, navodno, pilot aviona F-117A nije znao da je uhvaćen u radarski snop. Pukovnik Zoltan Dani se na ovo zagonetno smeška, i kaže: - Tada smo F-117A prvi put uočili. Primenili smo posebne taktičke metode, koji su naša tajna. Naziv "stelt" znaci da se radi o avionu manje radarske uočljivosti, a ne da je nevidljiv. Saznali smo kako može lako da se uoči i to primenili u praksi. Radi se o specifičnoj inovaciji, jedinstvenoj do sada, ali to, nažalost, ne možemo da patentiramo. Na radaru se pojavio obris koji je govorio da se, možda, radi o "stelt" avionu. Kad sam to uočio, ništa nisam govorio posadi da ne bih dizao "temperaturu". Nisam hteo da opterećujem saborce. Trebala nam je hladna glava, mirna ruka i brza reakcija. Vreme u kome radar za otrivanje i nišanjenje aviona sme da "zrači" meri se sekundama. Ako se to "zaboravi", lovac začas postaje žrtva. Rizik je veliki pa se uvek, pre svega, vodi bitka s vremenom, često i delovima sekunde.

There is no primary target for RV and PVO, all targets are the same, no mater what they are Tomahawks, F-16, F-18 or F-117… As long as they are enemy’s they will be fired upon. It's easy for some fighter like Mig-21 or Mig-29 to shut down Tomahawk, but in our chase, Mig-29 and Mig-21 had to set on the ground, because Tomahawks where guarded by enemy planes. If our Mig’s tried to attack Tomahawks, they would be destroyed BVR by enemy fighters. AWACS has great roll in this…
About shutting down Tomahawks over city’s I agree whit you… I was in Belgrade during all 78 days of bombing!

[techvipin]

Cant post links [:(]

[Relikt]

If that report was on Albanian, I would understand you, but...
F-117 was seen on Serbian radar, long enough to fire two missiles, it not our fault that it flew write over Serbian AA battery…





There is no primary target for RV and PVO, all targets are the same, no mater what they are Tomahawks, F-16, F-18 or F-117… As long as they are enemy’s they will be fired upon. It's easy for some fighter like Mig-21 or Mig-29 to shut down Tomahawk, but in our chase, Mig-29 and Mig-21 had to set on the ground, because Tomahawks where guarded by enemy planes. If our Mig’s tried to attack Tomahawks, they would be destroyed BVR by enemy fighters. AWACS has great roll in this…
About shutting down Tomahawks over city’s I agree whit you… I was in Belgrade during all 78 days of bombing!
One F-117 was down, we have evidence for that. But now we are hearing stories from retired Dani Zoltan about B-2? I could say that our submarines down Nimitz and that US is covering up. Zoltan said that they saw something which could be B-2 and they fire on that target. So how we knew it is B-2? We never get RCS of B-2. In fact F-117 we nail wasnt clear picture on screen but much foggy picture and from that radar mens concluded it is stealth. Same thing would happen with B-2. They simply couldnt get real RCS but some foggy picture from which they only knew it is stealth.
Lets think in different way. USA using jamming planes. So why couldnt B-2 our guys saw been just some jamming from Prowler?
Also B-2 isnt just some ordinary jet. If one is missing someone would start talking. Also there is only couple of airbases in world where B-2 can land due to need of special air-condition hangar. B-2 bombing run was flight from USA refuel over Atlantic drop bombs on our heads and then turn back again refuel over Atlantic and land on same airbase in USA. During all nights US citizens watch every takeoff and landing. So they will see that one bomber is missing.

Also if planes fall in other states around us someone must take some pictures or video. No. Also if we really downed 40 jets someone in NATO will came out and say that.

There would be mass investigation in NATO and air industries of NATO states.

And 40 jets is number which we get during bombing. To me it could be simple propaganda. I remember one event. I hear on radio that we downed F-16 and later (after war) I get info that was in fact one our Mig-21 or 29. Milosevic media use lies in that fight in same way as NATO. NATO spokesman said that NATO destroy 90% of our airforce which was lie. Also NATO talk about hundreds of destroyed tanks which again was lie. In same way we use lies too but we use them to bust civilian moral. What do you think how people would react if they knew that we downed less then 10 jets? I clearly remember when attack began I listen radio and heard that we downed two Tornando jets. Many more informations we get which was lies.

Tomahawks were primer targets of air defense. My relative was in AA during war. Why Tomahawk? Because it fly low so we can down it. How to downed bomber which fly on 8km and had radar hutner jets with SA-3 NEVA?
If we had SA-5 we could kick ***. But we didnt had them USSR didnt want to sale most advanced missile to country which is playing sit on two chairs.

[Relikt]

I like the photo you posted of the F-86D in your national colors.:-)
We have interesting jets in our air museum. I am sad because we didnt had F-100 super sabre because it is one of best looking jets to me.

[masqqqq]

Hi,
For me defence of Serb Army is good example well-thought-out and effective strategy in the conditions of NATO domination in air. Respect for skilful dispersal and camfulage of forces.

[Ovich]

Hi,
For me defence of Serb Army is good example well-thought-out and effective strategy in the conditions of NATO domination in air. Respect for skilful dispersal and camfulage of forces.
Thanks.
But as we all know NATO target wasnt Serbian army. If they shot only on army the war would never be finished. Al least not while they have bombs.

Do you know how many tanks and other equipement they managed to destroy in 3 month?

[skhara]

Thank you, I have many lot of that. This is thrue but meny people on this world don't see that becouse NATO don't want that and then NATO bobing Radio Televizija Srbije TV! and want to HIDE losses.
Sorry becouse my english.
Bye

Hi,

In 1999, I was in highschool -- I watched RTS broadcasts on CSPAN whenever they were available. I don't remember Serbs claiming these many losses of jets though. I do remember some F-16s, definitely remember F-117, and a bunch of cruise missiles and UAVs.

[skhara]

Thanks.
But as we all know NATO target wasnt Serbian army. If they shot only on army the war would never be finished. Al least not while they have bombs.

Do you know how many tanks and other equipement they managed to destroy in 3 month?

Yeah it was a bombing strategy to target civilians and civilian infastructure until the army could not bear to watch civilians suffer any longer. Otherwise you right, Yugoslavia had a very clever war doctrine using camoflauge and misdirection.

[yugoslav101]

[quote=gmi serbia]

You wanted to control part of Croatia and Bosnia and you lost the war

UM NO WE DIDNT BECAUSE IN THE END SERBIA CONTROLED 50% OF BOSNIA WHICH IS STIL TODAY IT IS CALED REPUBLIKA SRPSKA AND IS RUNE BY A SERBIAN PRESIDENT!:)

[yugoslav101]

Today marks the 8th anniversary of the start of the liberation of Kosova from brutal and relentless chetnik forces against mainly the civilian Kosovars. long live NATO.

HHAHAHAH KOSOVO WAS NEVER LIBERATED BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER INDEPENDANT!:biggrin1:

[yugoslav101]

Yeah it was a bombing strategy to target civilians and civilian infastructure until the army could not bear to watch civilians suffer any longer. Otherwise you right, Yugoslavia had a very clever war doctrine using camoflauge and misdirection.

I HATE NATO! KILLING INNOCENT CIVLIANS!

[Prinz Eugen]

Yeah it was a bombing strategy to target civilians and civilian infastructure until the army could not bear to watch civilians suffer any longer.

Do you have a source that confirms that NATO targeted civilians on purpose?


I HATE NATO! KILLING INNOCENT CIVLIANS!

I dont belive it was NATO that killed the most civilians on the Balkans...
Or do you?

[skhara]

Do you have a source that confirms that NATO targeted civilians on purpose?

What I am going to give a straight admission from the NATO war cabinet that would admit they deliberately targeted civilians? I can find you sources of targeting the nations electric grid, Radio-Television Serbia, Chemical plants, water treatment plants, etc...

There is a specific witnessed case where a NATO pilot is said to have targeted a trolley full of people.

The strategy is pretty simple and nothing complicated.

Given that NATOs bombing was tactically worthless, it was switched to a strategic campaign. Think about it, how exactly do you defeat an army if you are unable to engage that army tactically?

Code-named "Stage Three," Nato’s civilian targets included public transport, hospitals, schools, museums, churches. "It was common knowledge that Nato went to Stage Three [after a couple of weeks]," said James Bissell, the Canadian ambassador in Belgrade during the attack. "Otherwise, they would not have been bombing bridges on Sunday afternoons and market places."

The tactic is basically inflicting suffering on the general population, devastating the nation economically, and engaging in selective terrorism in order to generate grousome scenes.

It was said during last summer's Hezbollah-Israel war, that the Israelis went to school on NATOs Serbia campaign.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

What I am going to give a straight admission from the NATO war cabinet that would admit they deliberately targeted civilians? I can find you sources of targeting the nations electric grid, Radio-Television Serbia, Chemical plants, water treatment plants, etc...

There is a specific witnessed case where a NATO pilot is said to have targeted a trolley full of people.

The strategy is pretty simple and nothing complicated.

Given that NATOs bombing was tactically worthless, it was switched to a strategic campaign. Think about it, how exactly do you defeat an army if you are unable to engage that army tactically?

Code-named "Stage Three," Nato’s civilian targets included public transport, hospitals, schools, museums, churches. "It was common knowledge that Nato went to Stage Three [after a couple of weeks]," said James Bissell, the Canadian ambassador in Belgrade during the attack. "Otherwise, they would not have been bombing bridges on Sunday afternoons and market places."

The tactic is basically inflicting suffering on the general population, devastating the nation economically, and engaging in selective terrorism in order to generate grousome scenes.

It was said during last summer's Hezbollah-Israel war, that the Israelis went to school on NATOs Serbia campaign.What are your sources? I know that NATO targeted some civilian structures like power plants and industry. I did not know about hospitals and radio and TV stations.

[mustavaris]

What are your sources? I know that NATO targeted some civilian structures like power plants and industry. I did not know about hospitals and radio and TV stations.

They bombed at least one military hospital (in Novi Sad or Belgrad, dont remember) and various radio/tv stations were hit. Some were given prior warning before being destroyed. There is plenty of information available. NATO did not target civilian life but their aim was to make life miserable and push Serbs to accept the terms as they could not destroy the Serbian military with air power only.

[Prinz Eugen]

They bombed at least one military hospital (in Novi Sad or Belgrade, don’t remember)
Do you have a source fort this? I don’t believe that NATO bombed a target that was under the red cross on purpose. Maybe the hospital was in a military area and was damaged/hit accidentally.


and various radio/TV stations were hit. Some were given prior warning before being destroyed. There is plenty of information available.


To destroy the communication lines of your enemy is a legitimate action during war.
The same goes for bombing bridges, power supply etc. because all those targets have a military value.



NATO did not target civilian life but their aim was to make life miserable and push Serbs to accept the terms as they could not destroy the Serbian military with air power only.

Do you have a source that claims that NATO has chosen civilian targets to make the people of Serbia suffer under the war more than necessary or make their life more miserable?
That the tactical air strikes weren’t as effective as thought wasn’t clear during the bombing campaign. That the majority of the bombs destroyed fake positions instead of real ones was discovered at the end of the war when the NATO ground troops entered the area. So it is kind of unlikely to me that NATO targeted civilian installations in a “Moral” bombing campaign…

[Prinz Eugen]

Code-named "Stage Three," Nato’s civilian targets included public transport, hospitals, schools, museums, churches. "It was common knowledge that Nato went to Stage Three [after a couple of weeks]," said James Bissell, the Canadian ambassador in Belgrade during the attack. "Otherwise, they would not have been bombing bridges on Sunday afternoons and market places."
NATO bombed churches and museums on purpsoe? :huh_oh3:
Why didnt they start to bomb some random kindergarden?
I would like to see the source of that "interview"..


It was said during last summer's Hezbollah-Israel war, that the Israelis went to school on NATOs Serbia campaign.
Who said that? Some serbian newspaper or the Hezbollah "News-Channel"?

[skhara]

What are your sources? I know that NATO targeted some civilian structures like power plants and industry. I did not know about hospitals and radio and TV stations.

Hi,

You could do a search for "civilian targets" and "Operation allied force". Radio-Television Serbia was actually on the official target list. From what I remember the stated purpose was for "spreading propaganda". Basically, NATO command did not like RTS reporting on the types of targets being hit on the ground, and they didn't like RTS reporting the losses and damage to NATO aircraft either.


Who said that? Some serbian newspaper or the Hezbollah "News-Channel"?

Neither. CNN commentary.

[skhara]

NATO did not target civilian life

musta, my opinion is that civilian life was targeted. I don't mean that NATO was engaging in massive massacres, but selective terrorism against civilian life. This too makes life of civilians miserable. There are two documented strafing attacks against bridges when small passenger trains were coming across. There is also a documented attack on Albanian refugees in a convoy attacked by NATO aircraft who were going the wrong way. Anyway, taking away electricity, water, and heat; getting it to the point where food supply and medicine starts to run low, and creating gruesome scenes on the streets has a major psychological impact on the military who's families are the ones suffering. This was really the only way for NATO to dictate terms to the FRY.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Reminds me of a recent Family Guy episode in which Stewie is riding a hydraulic toy plane outside a store to make poor immigrant kids jealous. He then throws out pieces of paper, one of the kids picks one up and asks "What is this?" He replies "It's a pamphlet on why I'm bombing you." It works on so many levels. Funny, yet sad.

[Relikt]

NATO bombed churches and museums on purpsoe? :huh_oh3:
Why didnt they start to bomb some random kindergarden?
I would like to see the source of that "interview"..


Who said that? Some serbian newspaper or the Hezbollah "News-Channel"?
How can you talk about this event "Nato bombing of Serbia" when you wasnt there?
I was. So I could talk, NATO did target civilians. Couple of times. Grdelica train ,Nis market, Aleksinac, refugee colon etc.

But yes there was not some grand strategy like in WW2 to blast civilians.
Also attacking electric network was against civilians too. Our military had enough oil for back-up power.

Nato also blast many factories even they knew that military program of this factories was underground and on other location. Nato blast automobile factory which never had any connection with military programs.

Nato screw up in Serbia. It was big humiliation for NATO. They failed in almost everything which had military prefix.


P.S. Dragisa Misovic hospital was name of hospital blast by Nato. It is in Belgrade and hadnt any military value.

[skhara]

Nato screw up in Serbia. It was big humiliation for NATO.

Militarily speaking, it was a failure -- politically -- NATO did succeed. I think the biggest humiliation was Russia's in this ordeal.

[mustavaris]

Short comment: I will be back later today/tomorrow, but the NATO briefings (official) are available in the net day by day. Read them and there you find a lot of information.

NATO targeted civilian infra/dual use infra while they did not try to kill civvies, two different things. There was a change in tactics during the course of war. The first part of the campaign hit almost solely the military and paramilitary targets and then they shifted their targets to dual use infra, and hit also very essential targets when considering the civilian life, and they also increased pressure by destroying economically essential targets like non-military related factories... But I am not saying it was illegal. It happened. I can find info on that military hospital, but I cannot remember off my head whether they hit it on purpose or accidentally or whether they legitimized it somehow.. But I remember that they hit it. It was in Novi Sad or Beograd as far as I remember.

The Albanian convoy was bombed accidentally, like when they bombed (and lied about the situation) railroad bridge and caused an accident when civvie train fell.. but their intention was not to kill civvies.

[Prinz Eugen]

How can you talk about this event "Nato bombing of Serbia" when you wasnt there?
I was. So I could talk, NATO did target civilians. Couple of times. Grdelica train ,Nis market, Aleksinac, refugee colon etc.

All those occasions that you are mentioning where accidents where NATO planes attacked targets in the believe that they where military and/or that no civilians where present. That is what a lawyer would call “error in objecto”, so its just wrong to say that NATO targeted civilians.
NATO may have killed/injured civilians in a negligent way but never on purpose.


But yes there was not some grand strategy like in WW2 to blast civilians.

Glad that we agree in that point.


Nato screw up in Serbia. It was big humiliation for NATO. They failed in almost everything which had military prefix.


We can discuss that point forever. You have your opinion and I have mine. The fact that NATO won the war and the former president of Serbia was charged for war crimes remains for history...



P.S. Dragisa Misovic hospital was name of hospital blast by Nato. It is in Belgrade and hadnt any military value.

Serb officials say Nato has killed at least three patients in a Belgrade hospital during the alliance's biggest attack on the city for two weeks.

Nato said four planes, each carrying two laser-guided missiles, attacked the barracks but one bomb missed.

Spokesman Jamie Shea said: "One laser bomb failed to guide correctly. We can confirm that it struck the base of the building about 1,500ft from the centre of the target area."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/348287.stm

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Short comment: I will be back later today/tomorrow, but the NATO briefings (official) are available in the net day by day. Read them and there you find a lot of information.

NATO targeted civilian infra/dual use infra while they did not try to kill civvies, two different things. There was a change in tactics during the course of war. The first part of the campaign hit almost solely the military and paramilitary targets and then they shifted their targets to dual use infra, and hit also very essential targets when considering the civilian life, and they also increased pressure by destroying economically essential targets like non-military related factories... But I am not saying it was illegal. It happened. I can find info on that military hospital, but I cannot remember off my head whether they hit it on purpose or accidentally or whether they legitimized it somehow.. But I remember that they hit it. It was in Novi Sad or Beograd as far as I remember.

The Albanian convoy was bombed accidentally, like when they bombed (and lied about the situation) railroad bridge and caused an accident when civvie train fell.. but their intention was not to kill civvies.How can you hit dual use infrastructure without killing the civilians within?

[skhara]

The Albanian convoy was bombed accidentally, like when they bombed (and lied about the situation) railroad bridge and caused an accident when civvie train fell.. but their intention was not to kill civvies.

The convoy was bombed multiple times. I'm sorry but villagers on tractors look nothing like military on APCs and tanks. The fact that it was going North towards Serbia proper could be your answer.

Railroad bridge and train is claimed as "accident", of course NATO is going to claim as accident, but strong evidence exists that it was not. You know what would put everything to rest? The confiscation and examination of all NATO flight recordings and conversations between pilots and controllers.

How can you hit dual use infrastructure without killing the civilians within?

Exactly. Civilian structures. Civilians work inside those structures.

[mustavaris]

How can you hit dual use infrastructure without killing the civilians within?

In some instances they gave warnings before struck (at least tv/radio station comes to my mind), you can attack bridges during the hours when there is little traffic or do mock up attacks before real attack, and powerplants are legitimate targets in any case, so the civvies in there are kinda legitimate game however tragic casualties. And so forth.

[skhara]

We can discuss that point forever. You have your opinion and I have mine. The fact that NATO won the war and the former president of Serbia was charged for war crimes remains for history...


The Rambouillet accord called for the complete capitulation of Serbia before a single bomb was dropped. That at least, didn't happen due to Serb resistance.

[mustavaris]

The convoy was bombed multiple times. I'm sorry but villagers on tractors look nothing like military on APCs and tanks. The fact that it was going North towards Serbia proper could be your answer.

Railroad bridge and train is claimed as "accident", of course NATO is going to claim as accident, but strong evidence exists that it was not. You know what would put everything to rest? The confiscation and examination of all NATO flight recordings and conversations between pilots and controllers.



Exactly. Civilian structures. Civilians work inside those structures.

1# Many militaries use tractors and trucks. Serbs used at least the later. The NATO aircraft were ordered to fly (too) high to avoid AAA and MANPADS thus decreasing the chances of proper target identification. If it was an A-10, the terrain could have been a factor and in such case the target identification is not so sure either (though ought to be much easier).

2# Bridge was not an accident. It is legitimate target- The accident happened when they did not notice the train before it was too late. And then they presented a video footage which was played too fast.. while trying to make an excuse. That was a mistake + lying.

[Oluf]

No civilians were attacked intentionally (the NATO had no interest in attacking civilians).
It is true that civilians worked inside some of the vital installations attacked (ministries, etc…), however when one is as strong and defiant as the Great Serbia, one should know that the attack is coming and it is up to Serbian authorities to evacuate or not the installations.

It is unrealistic to organize ethnic massacres for ten years and then except that the world will come after you with silk gloves.

I wonder if the many thousands of (Muslim) civilians massacred by the Serbs in Sebrenitza (1995) was massacred intentionally, or if it was an incident.

[skhara]

1# Many militaries use tractors and trucks. Serbs used at least the later. The NATO aircraft were ordered to fly (too) high to avoid AAA and MANPADS thus decreasing the chances of proper target identification. If it was an A-10, the terrain could have been a factor and in such case the target identification is not so sure either (though ought to be much easier).]

musta,

The Albanian witnesses said that they were attacked by a Serb plane in a low flying strafing attack and that the aircraft made several passes, or at least coached by NATO/KLA personnel to make the claim. NATO commanders proudly backed that allegation also saying they don't deploy any low flying aircraft. Radio/Television Serbia debunked this claim by showing the debris of the dropped bombs and basically exposing NATOs commands lie.

My strong opinion, is that this convoy was bombed because it was heading for Serbia proper. Simply put, there were 10,000 Albanian refugees in Serbia, the more of them there, the more it debunks the claims being made by NATO.

It is legitimate target- The accident happened when they did not notice the train before it was too late.

There exists annalysis from the video footage that the pilot not only noticed the train, but waited for it be on top of the bridge. I am much more inclined to believe that then NATOs claims of mistakes, given the Chinese embassy "mistake", and other "mistakes" all around the nation. My conclusion is "selective terrorism".

Although to be honest, I don't know if the whole world thought the same way I do about it, there would be any consequence as a result. Probably not, so its hardly relevant.

[mustavaris]

Chicom embassy was the only target pointed out by CIA (so they say) and they had ELINT station there. Love it or hate it. Old addressbook, believe it or not. And the Chicoms did pretty much swallow it... their shame.

Convoy heading for Serbia proper = probably Serbs, hit them. There arent to many Serb civvies around, go for it.. Very plausible conclusion for a pilot looking for targets.

Confusing reports = nothing new from the fog of war, old story since the great wars of Mesopotamia. Propaganda? Yes, probably, from both sides.

The A-10s did strafing runs in Kosovo. NATO said so too. They may have used also many other aircraft while A-10s were the most suitable. The soil is still containing those DU shells... they did not drop there from high altitude.

The 1999 campaign was very clean campaign by all standards excl. the environmental ones. The number of dead civvies tell it all, too little to make any difference, but a PR failure.. if they wanted to achieve something by killing the civvies, the numbers would be bigger. Now the dead civvies were just unavoidable side-effect and crappy thing that was not planned by NATO but had to accepted in war.

[Prinz Eugen]

Official NATO charts about the airstrikesincluding the weather conditions:

http://www.defenselink.mil/DODCMSShare/briefingslide/246/990610-J-0000K-007.jpg



http://www.defenselink.mil/DODCMSShare/briefingslide/246/990610-J-0000K-008.jpg

[skhara]

You do realize, that all that "equipment", were wooden dummies. :roflmao3:

[Prinz Eugen]

Those are the cleared figures.
During the aircampain NATO said it had hit more then 230 tanks. The number shown in the charts are the losses that where confimred after NATO entered the area of operation.

[Relikt]

1998 FRY had 14 Mig-29A. Todya we have 4 Mig-29A.
1998 FRY had 2 Mig-29UB (trainer). Today we have 1 Mig-29UB.

Even if we count that 10 Mig-29A where lost in war it is 71%. But fact is that we had only on paper 14 Mig-29A. Some planes were cannibalize for spare parts.

SA-2 and SA-3 are not mobile systems. I would like to know what NATO count as KILL. Destruction of full operational SA-3 (with missile on launch ramp) or NATO count destruction of launch ramp (without missiles) as KILL. I could tell they count ramp too. Similar story was with Iraq's SCUD TELs. What is success of destroying those TELs when SCUDs were allready launch.
How good (bad) NATO was we can see in number of destroyed KUBs. What NATO would do if we had BUK or S-300?

P.S. Tanks which were destroyed are mostly junk. T-34, T-55 even couple of Hellcats.

[mustavaris]

Colonel Pekka Visuri (a Finn) was in Kosovo supervising and documenting the Serbian withdrawal and in his assesments he mentions that majority of the MBTs destroyed by NATO were old nearly useless material which were used to lure NATO.. He also mentions T34s and Hellcats. So the number could be true, but the real question is: how many M-84s and T72s were destroyed? And how much did the actual fighting capability of Serbian forces decrease.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

1998 FRY had 14 Mig-29A. Todya we have 4 Mig-29A.
1998 FRY had 2 Mig-29UB (trainer). Today we have 1 Mig-29UB.

Even if we count that 10 Mig-29A where lost in war it is 71%. But fact is that we had only on paper 14 Mig-29A. Some planes were cannibalize for spare parts.

SA-2 and SA-3 are not mobile systems. I would like to know what NATO count as KILL. Destruction of full operational SA-3 (with missile on launch ramp) or NATO count destruction of launch ramp (without missiles) as KILL. I could tell they count ramp too. Similar story was with Iraq's SCUD TELs. What is success of destroying those TELs when SCUDs were allready launch.
How good (bad) NATO was we can see in number of destroyed KUBs. What NATO would do if we had BUK or S-300?

P.S. Tanks which were destroyed are mostly junk. T-34, T-55 even couple of Hellcats.Destroyed TELs and launch ramps can't be reloaded.

[skhara]

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/Kosovo/War/PhotoAlbum/photos-war-10.html

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/images/NatoWar/F-16.jpg

NATO said it had only lost one F-117 in 79 days of war. Take a look at the above F-16 wreck to understand why the Truth in Media termed NATO spokespeople the "lie and deny" news spinners.

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/images/NatoPeace/sam-9.jpg

What you see on the above photo is a Yugoslav SA-9 "Gaskin" mobile SAM system (BRDM-2 transporter with 9M31M missiles, Flat Box passive detection and IR, max range 9km (5 miles), max altitude 5.2km (3.5 miles). If you take a close look, under the serial number (22260) you will see two stenciled planes indicating two destroyed NATO aircraft (see the red arrow). The photo also gives an insight into how the Yugoslav army camouflaged its SAMs. The upper section of the vehicle, containing the missiles, can be pulled down and a camouflage net can be easily and quickly deployed over the entire position.

Mig-29 Decoys:
http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/images/NatoWar/mig-29-4.jpg

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/images/NatoWar/mig-29-8.jpg
:(

[skhara]

Yugoslav tactics that worked against NATO

http://black-science.org/wikipedia/k/ko/kosovo_war.html

The tactics used by the Yugoslav army to avoid damage to its military at Kosovo were quite efficient, according to Wesley Clark and other NATO generals who analyzed these tactics a few years after the conflict. [1]

The Yugoslav army, with its military doctrine developed during the Cold War with the main purpose to resist much stronger enemy (Russian or American invasion) has put many of these tactics to work. While it may be argued that these effects were not enough to block a technological highly advanced army from causing serious damage to civilian infrastructure, some of these techniques were provably effective, especially in preserving army inside Kosovo virtually intact:

* U.S. stealth aircraft were tracked by using radars operating on long wavelengths. Also, if stealth jets got wet or started to drop bombs they would become visible on the radar screens. An F-117 stealth bomber was downed in this way.
* The precision-guided missiles were often confused and unable to pinpoint radars, because radar beams were reflected off heavy farm machinery like old tractors and plows.
* Many low tech approaches were used to confuse heat-seeking missiles and infrared sensors. Decoys such as small gas furnaces were used to simulate nonexisting positions on Kosovo mountainsides. Scout helicopters would land on flatbed trucks and rev their engines before being towed to camouflaged sites several hundred metres away. Heat-seeking missiles from NATO jets would then locate and go after the residual heat on the trucks. Similar tactics were planned in the case of the ground invasion - covert placement of heat emmiters on territory that NATO troops were to enter, tricking B-52s into carpet-bombing their own positions and causing friendly-fire incidents.
* Dummy targets were used very extensively. Fake bridges, airfields and decoy planes and tanks were used. Tanks were made using old tires, plastic sheeting and logs, and sand cans and fuel set alight to mimic heat emissions. They fooled NATO pilots into bombing hundreds of such decoys. NATO claimed that Yugoslav air force had been decimated. In reality, as it turned out after the war, most of Yugoslav planes and armored vehicles survived unscathed.
* Bridges and other strategic targets were defended from missiles with laser-guidance systems by bonfires made of old tires and wet hay, which emit dense smoke filled with laser-reflecting particles.
* Old electronic jammers were used to block U.S. bombs equipped with GPS guidance.
* Yugoslav jets flew combat missions over Kosovo at extremely low altitudes, taking advantage of mountainous terrain to remain undetected by AWACS flying radars.
* Hispano-Suisa anti-aircraft cannons from the WWII era were used efficiently against drones predator drones while Apache attack choppers and C-130 Hercules gunships considered too vulnerable to be deployed at all after two Apaches suffered accidents during training in Albanian mountains.

[Prinz Eugen]

Believe what ever you want...
NATO said that it lost 1 F117 and 1 F16 in operation allied force, so I don’t know what you are trying to show with the wreckage of 1 F16....

But a big :lol3: at your source, do you really believe in a webpage that compares Hitler with Clinton?



Sorry, but that page is full of crap....

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/images/NatoPeace/sam-9.jpg

What you see on the above photo is a Yugoslav SA-9 "Gaskin" mobile SAM system (BRDM-2 transporter with 9M31M missiles, Flat Box passive detection and IR, max range 9km (5 miles), max altitude 5.2km (3.5 miles). If you take a close look, under the serial number (22260) you will see two stenciled planes indicating two destroyed NATO aircraft (see the red arrow). The photo also gives an insight into how the Yugoslav army camouflaged its SAMs. The upper section of the vehicle, containing the missiles, can be pulled down and a camouflage net can be easily and quickly deployed over the entire position.While soldiers do tend to draw silouettes of enemy vehicles they destroyed on their own vehicles, it does not constitute evidence. Show me some pictures of the two aircraft it downed, then we'll talk.

[skhara]

While soldiers do tend to draw silouettes of enemy vehicles they destroyed on their own vehicles, it does not constitute evidence. Show me some pictures of the two aircraft it downed, then we'll talk.

I'm not really sure what NATOs losses were, I would bet anything its more than they would ever admit. I think the original poster did a decent compilation, can can talk to him. That was mostly to show the misdirection tactics used.

[Relikt]

Destroyed TELs and launch ramps can't be reloaded.
OK. You know how much cost launch ramp and how much cost SA-3 missile?

I just want to point out that launch ramp (is very simple to build) is fraction of system cost. And if NATO count destroyed ramps (I concluded this because USA count destroyed Iraq's SCUD TEL's) to me it is stupid. Any small workshop can build launch ramp.
I cant understand how such superior force can count destruction of non mobile systems as success? And if they count ramps as systems then they are fools or incompetent. And still no one didnt answer on my question. Did NATO count launch ramps as scores too?

[Relikt]

Colonel Pekka Visuri (a Finn) was in Kosovo supervising and documenting the Serbian withdrawal and in his assesments he mentions that majority of the MBTs destroyed by NATO were old nearly useless material which were used to lure NATO.. He also mentions T34s and Hellcats. So the number could be true, but the real question is: how many M-84s and T72s were destroyed? And how much did the actual fighting capability of Serbian forces decrease.
NATO decrease fighting capability of Serbian forces very little. Probable they never consider ground war as real option.

[gisse]

Well, where to start.

In start i am Serb and i was in Serbia during bombardment.:biggrin1:

About NATO loses: Yes they lost planes but they wont admit because that is politic. I can't tell numbers but i also think that 60 planes is to much. Lot of UAV was misplaced with planes. Also lot of cruising rockets was misplaced with planes.

About NATO air superiority: Well, they had 30+ planes on 1 our. Our planes where old and we had only 14 planes which could fight. Our air defense was great! Whit all that junk they managed at least to scare NATO pilots with all that firework over Serbia.Our guys worked great job with old tools :)

What NATO done in Serbia?Well, in military view nothing. They didn't make any significant loses to Serbian military.All those junk they hitted was meant to be hit.They hit some buildings and military buildings. They show great precision in some situation like hitting Army HQ (building) and lot of times they show such amateur shots which made so much damage to them (train in Grdelicka klisura).

NATO bombed Nis with claster bombs with purpose to scare Serbs.When they drop bombs on Shiptars first they sad that Serbian Mig-s done that and when they was forced to the wall they sad that that was collateral damage and couple hours earlier was telling that that was massacre of Serbian airplanes on Shiptars civilians.

Ground attack happened. While i was in army 2001 i was in army police unit which was during war 1999 near border with Albania. Officers was talking to us about that and that Albanian Army was attacking from Albania with terrorists in front. First where terrorists, then regular Albanian army and then after all ends there was coming NATO guys which was trying to come in territory of Serbia.Lot of them stayed on border in peaces, didn't pass.Only special force guys from NATO where coming not Marines or some troupes in large numbers, 10-15 mans max.

I hope that i helped to somebody here :)

To guys which think that they are Bosnjaks:What is name of your grand grand father?

To guy which think that Serbia will give up Kosovo:Kosovo was in Otoman Impery for almost 350 years and then again was Serbia. Do you think that you will be able to keep it longer then Otomans?

And to all guys:Do you realy think that NATO could win in this war if we would really fight?

As i remember biggest barbecue in Serbia was during bombardment when they hit power plants and we lost electricity for 4 days and didn't know what to do with meet from fridge :biggrin1: Can you fight against such people?

[skhara]

The job that Serbian air defense did was nothing other than terrific soldiering. Welcome.

[Mxm]

Well, where to start.

In start i am Serb and i was in Serbia during bombardment.:biggrin1:

About NATO loses: Yes they lost planes but they wont admit because that is politic. I can't tell numbers but i also think that 60 planes is to much. Lot of UAV was misplaced with planes. Also lot of cruising rockets was misplaced with planes.

About NATO air superiority: Well, they had 30+ planes on 1 our. Our planes where old and we had only 14 planes which could fight. Our air defense was great! Whit all that junk they managed at least to scare NATO pilots with all that firework over Serbia.Our guys worked great job with old tools :)

What NATO done in Serbia?Well, in military view nothing. They didn't make any significant loses to Serbian military.All those junk they hitted was meant to be hit.They hit some buildings and military buildings. They show great precision in some situation like hitting Army HQ (building) and lot of times they show such amateur shots which made so much damage to them (train in Grdelicka klisura).

NATO bombed Nis with claster bombs with purpose to scare Serbs.When they drop bombs on Shiptars first they sad that Serbian Mig-s done that and when they was forced to the wall they sad that that was collateral damage and couple hours earlier was telling that that was massacre of Serbian airplanes on Shiptars civilians.

Ground attack happened. While i was in army 2001 i was in army police unit which was during war 1999 near border with Albania. Officers was talking to us about that and that Albanian Army was attacking from Albania with terrorists in front. First where terrorists, then regular Albanian army and then after all ends there was coming NATO guys which was trying to come in territory of Serbia.Lot of them stayed on border in peaces, didn't pass.Only special force guys from NATO where coming not Marines or some troupes in large numbers, 10-15 mans max.

I hope that i helped to somebody here :)

To guys which think that they are Bosnjaks:What is name of your grand grand father?

To guy which think that Serbia will give up Kosovo:Kosovo was in Otoman Impery for almost 350 years and then again was Serbia. Do you think that you will be able to keep it longer then Otomans?

And to all guys:Do you realy think that NATO could win in this war if we would really fight?

As i remember biggest barbecue in Serbia was during bombardment when they hit power plants and we lost electricity for 4 days and didn't know what to do with meet from fridge :biggrin1: Can you fight against such people?



haha really fight are you an retard ?? did those bombs cause braindamage to you lol ofc Nato could win what do you think with your mig 21 and super g4 galebs lol tincans airforce of an ppoor african country and your m84 then :roflmao3: they might be something heavy against civillians cause those where the only ones your army killed but they are nothing to an proper army let alone Nato


:angry3::angry3:

[gisse]

haha really fight are you an retard ?? did those bombs cause braindamage to you lol ofc Nato could win what do you think with your mig 21 and super g4 galebs lol tincans airforce of an ppoor african country and your m84 then :roflmao3: they might be something heavy against civillians cause those where the only ones your army killed but they are nothing to an proper army let alone Nato


:angry3::angry3:

I see that again Shiptars are weary interested in treads. Are you paid for all that?

Who sad that we can attack some F-16 and F-15 with Mig-21 or G-4? Only total idiot will do that.

Well, on the ground situation is little bit different.Tanks are not so important, infantry is. Do you know how many solder do you need to take some territory if enemy is ready to fight? Usually 5 to 1. maybe you didn't noticed that US in Iraq have bigger loses after war then in it.

Serbian army had bigger loses from terrorists then from NATO.And terrorists weren't organized as good as they could be.

So you really think that all that war would be cat walk for NATO?To attack Serbs in Serbia? Need to remind you on same situation in First World War when mighty Austrian-Hungarian army have stuck in Serbia for 3 times in row.

In WW2 German pilot over Belgrade was terrified with Serbian pilots which when they left out of ammo was cutting tails of German airplanes with wings and after that jumping out and going to airfield for new plane.

Here you are not fighting simply against Army, you are fighting against people.

Read some Army books and every of them say:You can't conquer country until you don't conquer people.

If you again check past you will see that almost all our enemies left monument to Serbs against which they fight.Why do you think is that?Because we fight bad?

I hope that all that we wont be in situation again to prove that we fight good.

And please don't talk about Croatia and Bosnia because there was not regular Serbian army, there was simply people which wanted theres like you want yours.

[azrael]

Yugoslav tactics that worked against NATO

http://black-science.org/wikipedia/k/ko/kosovo_war.html

The tactics used by the Yugoslav army to avoid damage to its military at Kosovo were quite efficient, according to Wesley Clark and other NATO generals who analyzed these tactics a few years after the conflict. [1]

The Yugoslav army, with its military doctrine developed during the Cold War with the main purpose to resist much stronger enemy (Russian or American invasion) has put many of these tactics to work. While it may be argued that these effects were not enough to block a technological highly advanced army from causing serious damage to civilian infrastructure, some of these techniques were provably effective, especially in preserving army inside Kosovo virtually intact:

* U.S. stealth aircraft were tracked by using radars operating on long wavelengths. Also, if stealth jets got wet or started to drop bombs they would become visible on the radar screens. An F-117 stealth bomber was downed in this way.
* The precision-guided missiles were often confused and unable to pinpoint radars, because radar beams were reflected off heavy farm machinery like old tractors and plows.
* Many low tech approaches were used to confuse heat-seeking missiles and infrared sensors. Decoys such as small gas furnaces were used to simulate nonexisting positions on Kosovo mountainsides. Scout helicopters would land on flatbed trucks and rev their engines before being towed to camouflaged sites several hundred metres away. Heat-seeking missiles from NATO jets would then locate and go after the residual heat on the trucks. Similar tactics were planned in the case of the ground invasion - covert placement of heat emmiters on territory that NATO troops were to enter, tricking B-52s into carpet-bombing their own positions and causing friendly-fire incidents.
* Dummy targets were used very extensively. Fake bridges, airfields and decoy planes and tanks were used. Tanks were made using old tires, plastic sheeting and logs, and sand cans and fuel set alight to mimic heat emissions. They fooled NATO pilots into bombing hundreds of such decoys. NATO claimed that Yugoslav air force had been decimated. In reality, as it turned out after the war, most of Yugoslav planes and armored vehicles survived unscathed.
* Bridges and other strategic targets were defended from missiles with laser-guidance systems by bonfires made of old tires and wet hay, which emit dense smoke filled with laser-reflecting particles.
* Old electronic jammers were used to block U.S. bombs equipped with GPS guidance.
* Yugoslav jets flew combat missions over Kosovo at extremely low altitudes, taking advantage of mountainous terrain to remain undetected by AWACS flying radars.
* Hispano-Suisa anti-aircraft cannons from the WWII era were used efficiently against drones predator drones while Apache attack choppers and C-130 Hercules gunships considered too vulnerable to be deployed at all after two Apaches suffered accidents during training in Albanian mountains.

Let's clear some things up regarding modern warfare:

i) ram coated planes deliver precision guided munitions from any altitude they wish, they can avoid the rain. Secondly their rcs doesn't go up more than an order of magnitude when the bomb doors pop open and this increased signature doesn't last long.

ii) the second a helo lands, regardless of whether it's on a flatbed or not, you undertake actions to reduce it's heat footprint, not increase it. If you want to create false positives then you don't use the engine of the helo to undertake that task.

iii) Heat seeking missiles aren't used for air to ground strikes because of thermal clutter, missiles with thermal cameras are used but these are just tv guided bombs which require pilot/co-pilot input.

iv) B-52 are bomb trucks they don't target designate, i.e. unless a u.s. soldier calls down a strike from a b-52 running a track above the battlefield then no bombing will result as the initiative of the b-52 crew.

v) Decoys made of wood and plastic don't fool hyperspectral imaging libraries.

vi) Dense absorbent fogs are water based misting systems with organic dyes, these are effective against laser guided munitions. Burning hay, oil , dung, etc... is not; whenever you use combustion to spread absorbent particles you create convection cells and these create open windows for a missile to ride a guidance beam to it's target.

vii) Jamming gps is a b*tch, it's effectively done by utilizing a large number of small transmitters networked with gps receivers spread over a wide area, not a few old jammers.

Hope this has been a helpful introduction to modern warfare.

[gisse]

Let's clear some things up regarding modern warfare:

i) ram coated planes deliver precision guided munitions from any altitude they wish, they can avoid the rain. Secondly their rcs doesn't go up more than an order of magnitude when the bomb doors pop open and this increased signature doesn't last long.

ii) the second a helo lands, regardless of whether it's on a flatbed or not, you undertake actions to reduce it's heat footprint, not increase it. If you want to create false positives then you don't use the engine of the helo to undertake that task.

iii) Heat seeking missiles aren't used for air to ground strikes because of thermal clutter, missiles with thermal cameras are used but these are just tv guided bombs which require pilot/co-pilot input.

iv) B-52 are bomb trucks they don't target designate, i.e. unless a u.s. soldier calls down a strike from a b-52 running a track above the battlefield then no bombing will result as the initiative of the b-52 crew.

v) Decoys made of wood and plastic don't fool hyperspectral imaging libraries.

vi) Dense absorbent fogs are water based misting systems with organic dyes, these are effective against laser guided munitions. Burning hay, oil , dung, etc... is not; whenever you use combustion to spread absorbent particles you create convection cells and these create open windows for a missile to ride a guidance beam to it's target.

vii) Jamming gps is a b*tch, it's effectively done by utilizing a large number of small transmitters networked with gps receivers spread over a wide area, not a few old jammers.

Hope this has been a helpful introduction to modern warfare.


I see that you know all that by the book, good.

Just to inform you. All that things that you sad that are not possible we have done.

B-52 was bombing Serbian Army positions on Kosare on Albanian border while Albanian Army was attacking to get in Serbia.

Decoy made from wood and plastic with some addons work just fine to confuse enemy.

About GPS, you can confuse it easy.And Serbian army don't use old jammers ;)

Maybe you don't know but here we have lot of high education facilities which have helped with all kind of home made and high tech stuffs.

Simplest stuff was laser radiation detector, is that lights run like hell ;)

[Mxm]

I see that you know all that by the book, good.

Just to inform you. All that things that you sad that are not possible we have done.

B-52 was bombing Serbian Army positions on Kosare on Albanian border while Albanian Army was attacking to get in Serbia.

Decoy made from wood and plastic with some addons work just fine to confuse enemy.

About GPS, you can confuse it easy.And Serbian army don't use old jammers ;)

Maybe you don't know but here we have lot of high education facilities which have helped with all kind of home made and high tech stuffs.

Simplest stuff was laser radiation detector, is that lights run like hell ;)

haha your an retard you take your information out of your behind if you know what i mean

koshare happent weeks before nato bombing even began the albanian army with use of artillery fired into serbian postion while albanian airforce bombed you guys 300 kla went in and toke over when the whole operation was over there where 400 dead serb soldiers while the others fleed for their lifes

[azrael]

I see that you know all that by the book, good.

Just to inform you. All that things that you sad that are not possible we have done.

B-52 was bombing Serbian Army positions on Kosare on Albanian border while Albanian Army was attacking to get in Serbia.

Decoy made from wood and plastic with some addons work just fine to confuse enemy.

About GPS, you can confuse it easy.And Serbian army don't use old jammers ;)

Maybe you don't know but here we have lot of high education facilities which have helped with all kind of home made and high tech stuffs.

Simplest stuff was laser radiation detector, is that lights run like hell ;)

Again, if a b-52 bombed a position, it did not designate that target. The target was designated by a uav, commando or another plane. The b-52 merely delivered it's load on a particular vector.

wood and plastic decoys will fool perhaps an inexperienced helo pilot or an a-10 pilot using their eyeballs, but in a fighter-bomber with a hyperspectral targetting pod it will appear as something whose spectral signature says "wood" and "plastic".

Again , someone else said serbian army used old jammers to disable gps signals , i'm merely pointing out that will not work. Unless you network several jammers and take into account the changing directions of the gps satellites the a single point source jammer can be filtered by military gps receivers as background noise. Military gps is designed to work in an environment with very high levels of background noise.

[skhara]

Hope this has been a helpful introduction to modern warfare.

Boy do you sound "smart". Fact is Serbs deployed many decoys, many of which were bombed. Fact is NATO claimed to inflict massive damage of Serbian military with footage to back it up -- nothing materialized after the war.

You are not dealing with kids there, you are dealing with someone who knows and understands all the weapons and tactics deployed by their massively armed enemy.

[Mxm]

Some of Kukesi Division War Fighting Actions


In order to come up with a real conclusion of Kukesi Division activity anyone should work hard, because they had been tens and hundreds of them. All soldiers, NCO-s and officers had more then one chances to be in the battlefield.
Pogaj engagement was very intensive. Our forces in that war intercooperated so much to make the success of that war happen. Many traditional values such as brevity, baldness, commitment our forces and local population were not seen before. Our forces did have a multifaceted cooperation between each others, such as artillery, military police, border protection forces, intelligence, other coordination of diplomatic and political efforts with military ones. Our forces proved to be invincible against enemy artillery, because our bunkers worked very well and were very efficient in defense fighting protection. Such war fighting situation took place in man area a and in particular in Morine, Pogaj, Cahan, Vlahen, Dobrune, Qafe Prushi, etc.
Real offensive and defensive fighting went on during 11, 12, and 13 May 1999 in Kamenice and 17 May in Qafe Prushi.
In 19 May, Serbian paramilitary forces of a battalion, well armed and equipped, supported by their artillery and tanks fire, with the aim to break through the front line in Koshare, from the beck and flanks of Inf. Division AOR. Very soon they showed up 2.1 km inside our borders. Our forces reacted relatively very late, which gave Serbs forces the chance for short time success. So that, Serbs forces would capture the peak of Geshtenjave. Anyway our forces would redeployed in that regain and regain the captured territory. On May 12th 1999, 05.00hs our forces set on attack against enemy forces by forcing the enemy forces to withdraw back. About 20 enemy forces were injured and dead, and they left their equipment and military assets in the region.
The preparation took some hours, and the enemy was attacked in many points, and by all military fighting capability of our forces. Our firing intensity was so high and the Serbian captured territory was set on fire. That was unforeseen for enemy forces, and as a result they were chaught in panic. This way our forces obtained the initiative forces the enemy forces in 13 May give up their intentions and pull out in their previous positions. During those fighting our forces could capture enemy’s war planning documents. During then afternoon fighting of 12 May in our forces efforts to capture Kamenica Post, Disdari infantry battalion performed such the heroic fighting actions which will be commented later by our history.
In May 17th, we were informed that toward Qafe Prushi and Perollaj an attack was planned, which was scheduled to start with minor provocation, and in case of success, the fighting might have gone on, with the aim to capture and hold the main supply route (MSR) Krume-Bajram Curri. This sound and timely information did make possible that our forces take all necessary measures to react and respond appropriately and in time. Therefore our forces were positioned along Qafe-Pru****- Qarr-Dobrone line where forces of Kruma battalion were planned to engage in those fighting, intelligence platoon, tank coy of Krruma, air-defense artillery and field artillery battalion in Golaj. Operative group was deployed in Suka peak. The main attacking force was the tank coy which did cooperate with 12,7 mm machine gun unit and forces the enemy to fight back very soon. Meanwhile the enemy forces asked for support from their superiors, support which never came.
We should say that during those fighting the Serbian Artillery launched intensive and accurate artillery firing. The grenades use to fly in the targets chosen and our tanks from two directions, Goden and Gjakova. However our tank unit had no any damage and our forces no injuries, while Serbs confirmed 70 forces dead.
After those fighting the overall terrain was set on fire the Serbian loses were tremendous. According to secure sources Serbia lost some 12 000 fighters in Kosova conflict.

Translated: Ahmet Krasniqi

[gisse]

haha your an retard you take your information out of your behind if you know what i mean

koshare happent weeks before nato bombing even began the albanian army with use of artillery fired into serbian postion while albanian airforce bombed you guys 300 kla went in and toke over when the whole operation was over there where 400 dead serb soldiers while the others fleed for their lifes

Thanks on first sentence.

Like i sad, B-52 was bombing Serbian lines. You probably know what is that "carpet bombing"

When infantry didn't pass they start with that.

Albanian air force don't have with what to bomb.Or you think on airplanes which you will buy in 2025?

and 300KLA didn't went in, they left on side of hill.

And you say that there was 400 dead Serbian solders?that is 1/4 from all loses of Serbian army during 78 days of bombing and KLA attacks in Kosovo and Metohija.

[Mxm]

Thanks on first sentence.

Like i sad, B-52 was bombing Serbian lines. You probably know what is that "carpet bombing"

When infantry didn't pass they start with that.

Albanian air force don't have with what to bomb.Or you think on airplanes which you will buy in 2025?

and 300KLA didn't went in, they left on side of hill.

And you say that there was 400 dead Serbian solders?that is 1/4 from all loses of Serbian army during 78 days of bombing and KLA attacks in Kosovo and Metohija.

lol you read to much serbian propaganda mine friend albanian air force had 100 airplanes ready to fly in 99 wich where beter then your mig 21 and super g4 galebs lolol and besides that how did we manage to kill 400 of you then and here



Troops Killed: 5,000
Troops Wounded: 10,000
Tanks Lost: 93
APC's Lost: 153
Artillery Pieces Lost: 389
Military Vehicles: 339
Aircraft Lost in Dogfights: 6 Mig-29's & 1 Mi-8
Aircraft Lost on the Ground: about 40-50( 5 Mig-29's, about 20 Mig-21's)


Targeting and hitting Serb troops in Kosovo proved to be a challenge due to bad weather and the terrain allowed the Serbs to hide better. During the final days NATO was given another advantage to hit Serb troops, and that was the KLA. The KLA would attack Serbs in Kosovo until NATO aircraft would come down and drop bombs on the Serbs. In one such incident near the end the KLA brought about 800 Serb troops into the open. A single B-52 Stratofortress bomber carpet bombed the area and all 800 Serb soldiers lost their lives. After the war, NATO investigated the area to see if there were any clues left behind and what they saw only cleared up the fact that around 800 Serb soldiers were caught in the open and obliterated. At the site wreckage abandoned by the Serbs was still present.


http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/kosovo.htm



5000 isnt right we killed at least 5000-7000



oh wow 800 serbs in 1 day not bad :)

[parm3nion]

hi,

well i read a bit this thread and i couldn't stay away without posting. Well i'm greek so u can say i'm biased. Anyways.
I wanna say 2 things. First i will never forget the dayly "sorry" by NATO spokesman every day. EVERY DAY. For me NATO did a crime there.
Second i remember how we did count every downed nato airplane mentioned in GREEK NATO news i also don't gonna hide that we used to drink lots of beer for every NATO plane gone boom.
U can go forward and argue there weren't any downed planes and ppl counted planes taking off and so on. Well if my country is able to launch aircrafts without anyone seeing them than i bet USA can do it also.
U can argue however you want, i can understand u because thats all nato propaganda u r repeating.
Also i can't forget what i saw with my eyes on tv, the dead american bodies at the greek/fyrom border and later in salonica.
I feel sad for every one american dead guy there but i also feel sad for every one serbian dead guy. May noone dies in future in that way.
My 2 cents are that usa has nothing lost over serbia neither germany nor holland nor anyone else.

p.s. i gonna never forget the nato spokesman saying sorry everyday. Mistakes? oh yeah sure.
If u think im biased than remeber what U saw in tv and are repeading now and what GREEK media have shown during the bombings, its actually easy to find out.
peace

[azrael]

The serbs launched a series of destabilizing wars that gained them nothing but shame and disgrace. If you have something worth fighting over, then fight, win or die there is no dishonour, just skill, luck and the admiration of heaven. But what did the serbs fight and die for? To run rape camps? to kill old men and women? To preserve yugoslavia, a synthetic creature. Fools, just sad fools. The serbs let their politicians lead them to ruin, everything their leaders said turned out to be lies. They could have lived in peace , been a member of the e.u. , kept their ancestral lands. Many nations would poor economies like serbia would have given anything for those rewards. Look at rumania, did they start a war over moldovia? No , they said some rough words and then sent in their application to nato and the e.u. Look at helene, did they start a war over macedonia, cyprus or to protect serbia? Hell no, they said some harsh words and then went to their nato meetings and their e.u. ministerial meetings. Why did rumania and helene do this? Because it wasn't worth the fight. What they would lose by fighting was far worse then what they would gain by winning. Their would be no honour in winning, no dishonour in not fighting. The leaders of rumania and helene are not angels, maybe they don't things just for the sake of their people, but they are not stupid. They understand that their fortunes, power and prestige are tied to the welfare of their people. I still can't understand why serbia's leaders choose to damn their people to such shame and misery.

During the second world war/ great patriotic war, many nations choose to sit out the fighting. Sweden abandoned her fraternal neighbors norway, denmark and finland, she even allowed german troops to use her as a logistics branch for occupying norway. Franco's fascist espana, who relied so much upon italia and deutchland for support during the civil war, nonetheless choose to turn his back on them for the sake of preserving his nation. Switzerland maintained her long and lucrative neutrality, trading with all sides until the last gestapo officer ran across the frontier with a suitcase, some pillaged artworks and a pamphlet on how to forget your grammar and learn swiss german. Were they wrong? No, if you can avoid a costly war that serves no purpose then do it. More than a hundred million people perished during that war , very few of whom were spainards, swiiss or swedes. Why? Good leaders? Maybe. Lucky to have been in a geostrategic position to declare neutrality unlike hungary? That as well. But ultimately the why's are not too important, not too important to all the allied and axis citizens who died and not important to all the spainards, swiss and swedes who survived because they didn't go to war. The only difference? The swedes, swiss and spainards, who otherwise would be dead, got to live a full life and if they wanted to could ponder such things over a plate of tapas, some strudel or beer, if they cared. How would the world look had the sebian leaders found a reason not to fight. Croatia, slovenia, bosnia and macedonia would all be independent nations, just like now. Maybe montenegro would have remained, kosovo would've stayed. Oh yes, many serbs would not be dead and many more would not be refugees wondering whether renting their daughters or selling kidneys would bring them more money.

When you have a reason to fight, fight , win or lose, there is no dishonour. But make very sure you have a reason to fight or you'll wind up like the serbs covered in shame with their leaders dying in foreign prisons.

[parm3nion]

Dear friend,

there are a lot propaganda said by NATO to make it possible for them to follow their goals in the region. They are very good in propganda very professional. They make the world believe what they want to believe.
Remeber that today no country or organization can attack someone else without a casus beli. I mean Italy for example can not go and attack spain only because they want to do it. They need a reason to do so because 1) the whole world would react against them and 2) their own citizens would react. But how can someone attack some other? The solution is to make the "enemy" look bad to make him tha bad boy.
Now if NATO said "hey the serbs are cool guys, peacefull and didn't do anything but we gonna bomb them because they dont accept the new worldorder, kosovo has plenty of resources we wanna have and we dont want them to go into russian influence."
With that statemaent do u think any european citizen would accept that his country goes in a war against serbia? Obviously not.
But with saying "they attack their neighbors they do genocide, they kill moslems, they kill albanians, they are evil" most of the european citizen will say "damn serbs bomb them away".
Now i explained to u why propaganda is essential. And that was how it worked. Its the same like the WMD's of Iraq. WHERE are the WMD's of Iraq? DIdn't an american oficial in the UN holding a small bottle with a "probe" of Sadams WMD's? Now WHERE are the WMD.

Another "sorry' by the americans "sorry we made a mistake, bad CIA didn't research enough." Doesn't that sound familiar? "Sorry, sorry, sorry?"

I try to explain quoting you what i mean.
The serbs launched a series of destabilizing wars that gained them nothing but shame and disgrace.

Not true. Serbs didn't launch ANY war. If u disagree please name me the war they launched.
Also i like to point out that NATO did what it did regardles of what serbs done or not. To stress that out i like to point to cyprus. Now 30 years later WHY does USA/NATO not intervene there? Are you aware that turkey still holds cypriot/greek prissoners and never said what has happened to them? If nato bombs serbia now they have to bomb turkey.(ironic)



If you have something worth fighting over, then fight, win or die there is no dishonour, just skill, luck and the admiration of heaven. But what did the serbs fight and die for? To run rape camps? to kill old men and women? To preserve yugoslavia, a synthetic creature.

I agree with you no dishomor to loose a war when u fight. Same goes for the serbs they fought braverely for their ideals, for their country, or isnt krajina or half bosnia and kosovo their country? i can not blame them. In my eyes they showed courage and sorry my language they showed "balls". I cant say the same for usa/NATO.
Rape camps, kill old man woman? U don't wanna tell me that the croats or the moslems or the albanians didn't raped killed old man and woman?
Can u show me a "rape camp", notice that i researching that stuff long time now, and please dont show me the nato propaganda material that goes around, it would be too easy for me to counter. Please look for intepended sources. No NATO, no moslem no croatian no serbian no albanian sources. If u find any than show it to me so i can research it.


When you have a reason to fight, fight , win or lose, there is no dishonour. But make very sure you have a reason to fight or you'll wind up like the serbs covered in shame with their leaders dying in foreign prisons.

I wont quote everything you posted because this post is long enough but i can do later if u want me to do.
I assure you they had many reasons to fight, the most importand was that they wanted to keep their country complete as it was, i like to remind you that krajina for example is now in croatia that was serbian, also half of bosnia is serbian. Also keep in mind that serbia as a country did not officialy gone to war. They may supported bosnian/serbian forces like iran supported the moslems nothing more. I dont think the world saw a full largescale serbian attack.

About greece u mentioned. I m greek. Well greece did everything in their hands to help serbia. From weapons, oil, food, medicaments information directly from nato headquarters, lightening the maritim embargo etc. The greek EYP (like CIA) was heavyly engaged in the wars and also greek people fought with the serbs, no regular oficial greek troups but people with serbian AND greek weaponry/supplies with heavy support from the oficial country. I give u a hint, check srebrenica u will find lot of greek troops there. While the bosnia war was going one u like to notice it was the only NATO country that was aloud to send journalists etc into serbian areas.
They helped serbia because its one of the few countries which is able to understand what was going on. Greece knows very good that it can have exactly the same future as serbia had. Its compilation is similar to serbia. I can tell u more about that if u like but i try to keep my response a small as possible.

edited for corrections. Yes my english isn't that good.

[azrael]

Member parm3nion, this isn't an english literature class, there is no need for apologies.

Yes, there were serbs throughout yugoslavia, and there were croats, muslims, gypsies throughout as well. Yet, yugoslavia was like the ottoman empire, the power of the center could not keep it from flying apart. Had serbs relented and allowed peaceful separation there would still be serbs in croatia today. All these nations would have joined the e.u. and the serbs could work and live where ever they wanted in croatia, bosnia, anywhere in the e.u. without shame. Instead they choose war, now they work poor jobs in greece, germany and elsewhere.

And regarding the wars and greece, yes some right wing orthodox groups did send volunteers north, but the government and military of helene held to it's nato obligations. Had helene threatened to leave nato, chances are good they could have stopped the bombing, but the leadership in athens didn't want to take the chance. You know that, i know that and belgrade knew that.

Next time you see a poor young serbian girl in helene, with a much older foreign tourist, ask her if it was worth it, if milosevic's path brought honour to her nation. Yugoslavia before the war was one of the wealthiest nations of the eastern bloc; the average per capita standard of living was higher than any other communist nation. Their transition should have been the easiest, they should right now be a group of wealthy first world nations. Serbia, with kosovo and montenegro would have become the second orthodox member of nato. Instead serbia, stripped of everything , now fights with moldovia to see which country is the poorest in far west eurasia.

[gisse]

Yes, there were serbs throughout yugoslavia, and there were croats, muslims, gypsies throughout as well. Yet, yugoslavia was like the ottoman empire, the power of the center could not keep it from flying apart. Had serbs relented and allowed peaceful separation there would still be serbs in croatia today. All these nations would have joined the e.u. and the serbs could work and live where ever they wanted in croatia, bosnia, anywhere in the e.u. without shame. Instead they choose war, now they work poor jobs in greece, germany and elsewhere.

You sad that they could stay in Croatia.

Why Albanians don't stay in Serbia when they have bigger rights then Serbs in Croatia?Or just Albanians have right to separate?

I will right this but that is probably for some other thread.

Serbs didn't want to stay in Croatia because 45 years earlier NDH (Independent State of Croatia) in camps have killed around 700 000 Serbs and Gypsies. Serbs saw rising of that state where theirs grandfathers and fathers was killed just because they where orthodox and Serbs. Politic of NDH was 1/3 kill, 1/3 send somewhere else and 1/3 get to catholics. All that was supported from official Vatican. And that is why Serbs didn't want to live in Croatia.

In Slovenia there was no such problem and JNA (Yugoslav National Army, official army of that Yugoslavia) was going out but was couple times attacked by Slovenian paramilitary troops.JNA had loses because in JNA in that time was only regular army (boys which have 19-21 years) which was serving in army and they where usually unarmed.

JNA wasn't only controlled by Slobodan Milosevic because there was also lot of Croats and others in HQ of army. Job of army was to protect Yugoslavia and that is what they was doing.

Serbia never went directly in war in Bosnia and Croatia.Lot of Serbs went there to support relatives in Bosnia and Croatia.Officially Serbs owned 65% of territory in Bosnia (private property) before war.

Maybe you don't remember Markale. Market place in Sarajevo where was one massacre for which they accused Serbs and set Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) under UN sanction. Later UN proved that Serbs didn't throw mortar mine there and that lots of body (there was around 120 dead people) was brought from side.

Srebrenica was also interesting. There was before war almost half Serbs. During war they simply gone and nobody talk about that.
In Srebrenica was one Bosnian Muslim brigade which Serbs surrounded.For 150 days that same brigade was attacking Serbs and when it was enough they got proposal to take all people out except solders.They didn't and later Serbs attacked and lot of civilians died in that fight. That 6000 people about Bosnian Muslims talk died during 150 days not after Serbs get in city.And from that 6000 there was small percentage of civilian.One group which was killing civilians was cough and shotted on place and one other was sent to Belgrade for trial (Scorpions).They are now in jail for long long time.

Bosnian Croats and Muslims and Croats had full support from NATO. NATO bombed Serbs in Bosnia and also give full logistic support during operation "Oluja" and "Bljesak" when almost 500 000 Serbs was thrown out of theirs homes.

In Croatia before war was 1,25 mil of Serbs and 2,25 mil of Croats.

Serbs, Bosnians and Croats speak almost same language. They understand perfectly each other.

About Kosovo.

During 1974 Serbia got new constitution by which Kosovo and Vojvodina parliament could block parliament of Serbia what was nonsense for any state.In 1990 that constitution was changed only in that part but Albanians still had right to go to Albanian school and universities, to speak and write on Albanian, all documents where in 2 language in Kosovo.Also there was agreement that Albanians need to be employed just because they are Albanians. In every company in Kosovo there was necessary to be at least 30% of Albanians.SO they employed them with or with out necessary knowledge.I maybe don't need to mention that there was small percent of Albanians which payed taxes or any other bill to state but all was taking pensions and money which they getting for every child.In which country people don't need to pay taxes??????In USA?????

In Vojvodina there was 6 or 7 languages in official use. In every area that depend from nations of which live there.In Pancevo on bus station on board where write "Buss station" it is written in 6 different languages.


In 1997 Serbia proposed to Albanians to come to Belgrade to talk about problems in Kosovo but couple times they refused.Serbia called rest of minorities from Kosovo to talks about solving problems.During 1998 there was talks in Rambue in France where Serbs and Albanians got proposal and Serbs accepted. BUT couple hours before signing proposal Mary Olbright sad for CNN "If Serbs refuse we will bomb them, if Albanians refuse we can't support them"

Then they brought more papers where was written:"Serbia need to allow NATO to build bases where he find proper for him in Serbia", "Serbia need to allow to NATO troops free movement across Serbia", "NATO troops don't obey to laws of Serbia", "Serbia will provide all necessary for NATO in Serbia".

In that couple lines was written:We will get in your country, we can do what ever we want, you will pay for building our base in your country where ever we want and for as much time we want.

Who would accept that?


Racak was fake.There was 40 dead people for which Kristofer Walker sad that they are civilians and bombing have started. Later during bombing some Finish pathologist proved that those 40 people was killed in gun fight not executed like Walker sad.


I hope that now i have lighted you at least for little.

[gisse]

Next time you see a poor young serbian girl in helene, with a much older foreign tourist, ask her if it was worth it, if milosevic's path brought honour to her nation. Yugoslavia before the war was one of the wealthiest nations of the eastern bloc; the average per capita standard of living was higher than any other communist nation. Their transition should have been the easiest, they should right now be a group of wealthy first world nations. Serbia, with kosovo and montenegro would have become the second orthodox member of nato. Instead serbia, stripped of everything , now fights with moldovia to see which country is the poorest in far west eurasia.

Serbs don't wont to go to NATO

[gisse]

I have noticed that last comment from some "nice" guy Azemy was removed.

About baby in Racak?????There was no baby in Racak only 40 mens. That can confirm you mr Walker.But he sad that they was executed, something like shoot in head. Later come Finish pathologist and showed that guys died in fight.

Don't listen all what CNN and BBC say. I was listening yesterday and laughing.Everybody know that Albanians had biggest right in Europe and wider but they wanted theirs "Big Albania" and accusing Serbs for "Big Serbia". So now you almost close to the finish line. Let we see what will you do with your new state. Will it end like Albania which doesn't control almost 30% of hers territory or will be real state where gangs wont be above government.

I hope that you will develop fast at least to that level which Serbia left 1991.

Sincerely yours Gisse

[azemi]

I have noticed that last comment from some "nice" guy Azemy was removed.

About baby in Racak?????There was no baby in Racak only 40 mens. That can confirm you mr Walker.But he sad that they was executed, something like shoot in head. Later come Finish pathologist and showed that guys died in fight.

Don't listen all what CNN and BBC say. I was listening yesterday and laughing.Everybody know that Albanians had biggest right in Europe and wider but they wanted theirs "Big Albania" and accusing Serbs for "Big Serbia". So now you almost close to the finish line. Let we see what will you do with your new state. Will it end like Albania which doesn't control almost 30% of hers territory or will be real state where gangs wont be above government.

I hope that you will develop fast at least to that level which Serbia left 1991.

Sincerely yours Gisse
haha it doesnt control 30% of its terretory lolol in Albania 96% is albanian the rest is 4% turks,gorania,greeks,gipsies,romas lol while look at serbia sangjak,vojvodina,presheva haha your serbia will tare apart mark mine words just like kosova next is vojvodimna

[gisse]

haha it doesnt control 30% of its terretory lolol in Albania 96% is albanian the rest is 4% turks,gorania,greeks,gipsies,romas lol while look at serbia sangjak,vojvodina,presheva haha your serbia will tare apart mark mine words just like kosova next is vojvodimna

Please read again my post.

I sad that Albania don't control 30% of territory not that 30% of population are not Albanians.

[Relikt]

haha it doesnt control 30% of its terretory lolol in Albania 96% is albanian the rest is 4% turks,gorania,greeks,gipsies,romas lol while look at serbia sangjak,vojvodina,presheva haha your serbia will tare apart mark mine words just like kosova next is vojvodimna
I seem you drink to much during celebration. He say Albanian state control 30% of Albania rest of Albania is controled by criminal gangs. Is this true or not is irrelevent. What is relevant is Interpol data about 23.000 Albanians in EU prisons becuase of drug traffic. So next time when Gon4z or you say Serbs are biggest criminals in Europe, please post some evidence.

And about Rachak, Finish pathologist Helen Rant (she was leading finish pathologist during investigation) wrote book
couple years ago where she said Rachak probable wasnt execution but NATO use it to aprove agression.

[Relikt]

Member parm3nion, this isn't an english literature class, there is no need for apologies.

Yes, there were serbs throughout yugoslavia, and there were croats, muslims, gypsies throughout as well. Yet, yugoslavia was like the ottoman empire, the power of the center could not keep it from flying apart. Had serbs relented and allowed peaceful separation there would still be serbs in croatia today. All these nations would have joined the e.u. and the serbs could work and live where ever they wanted in croatia, bosnia, anywhere in the e.u. without shame. Instead they choose war, now they work poor jobs in greece, germany and elsewhere.

And regarding the wars and greece, yes some right wing orthodox groups did send volunteers north, but the government and military of helene held to it's nato obligations. Had helene threatened to leave nato, chances are good they could have stopped the bombing, but the leadership in athens didn't want to take the chance. You know that, i know that and belgrade knew that.

Next time you see a poor young serbian girl in helene, with a much older foreign tourist, ask her if it was worth it, if milosevic's path brought honour to her nation. Yugoslavia before the war was one of the wealthiest nations of the eastern bloc; the average per capita standard of living was higher than any other communist nation. Their transition should have been the easiest, they should right now be a group of wealthy first world nations. Serbia, with kosovo and montenegro would have become the second orthodox member of nato. Instead serbia, stripped of everything , now fights with moldovia to see which country is the poorest in far west eurasia.
Azrael what you know about Croatia?
Do you hear for Serbian family Zec. They were killed by Croatian police months before war started. It happen in Zagreb.
They were executed in their family house. They didnt fire on police in fact they were handcuffed. Why they were killed?
Official investigation didnt give any reason or this police action in fact they could say why police arrested them in first place. But they were respectable, old and rich serbian family in Zagreb. They were robbed too. This was just one of event in which croatian police mistreated Serbs before war.
You probable hear for Franjo Tudjman, croatian president. He is well known croatian nationalist (Milosevic is kid in nationalism if we compare him with Tudjman). Franjo T. said in one interview "I am glad my wife isnt Jew or Serb". So how you expect Serbs could accept such president.
In croatian parliament you could hear very nice words about croatian "ustaše" ww2 nazi organisation. Many representatives talk how they are going to finish job which ustaše begin in ww2.

Also Serbs were fire from any important jobs before war started.

It is western propaganda made story about crazy Serbs which woke one day and decide to kill Croats.

Was that war brought anything good for Serbs? No. But in our history we had much bigger disasters which we survive(for example WW1 probable our biggest disaster). Serbia is like Phoenix so we will survive this disaster too. We only need to convince people to give their best and not sit around and complain. We have excellent geographic position and good economy&agricultural base we only need leader which wish good to his people.

[azemi]

I seem you drink to much during celebration. He say Albanian state control 30% of Albania rest of Albania is controled by criminal gangs. Is this true or not is irrelevent. What is relevant is Interpol data about 23.000 Albanians in EU prisons becuase of drug traffic. So next time when Gon4z or you say Serbs are biggest criminals in Europe, please post some evidence.

And about Rachak, Finish pathologist Helen Rant (she was leading finish pathologist during investigation) wrote book
couple years ago where she said Rachak probable wasnt execution but NATO use it to aprove agression.

the same counts for you provide some facts and albania isnt under mafia control this is 2008 not the 90s anymore find me the facts about those 23,000 prisinores and 1 more thing i dont care what that helen rant whore says do you want me to post pictures and look for yourself if they where tortuered or not without half faces and no eyes no arms or legs and you tell me its an lie shame on you i thought you relikt where smarter then that but deep inside you know that what happent there was an massacer

[gisse]

I have noticed that all Shiptars here on this Forum know only to say that Serbs are bad and don't know nothing and that they are mass murders and ...................

I never heard any real prof which is not coming from some NATO spokesman.I think that all world know how true is that what NATO say.You have saw in Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran now.

[gisse]

the same counts for you provide some facts and albania isnt under mafia control this is 2008 not the 90s anymore find me the facts about those 23,000 prisinores and 1 more thing i dont care what that helen rant whore says do you want me to post pictures and look for yourself if they where tortuered or not without half faces and no eyes no arms or legs and you tell me its an lie shame on you i thought you relikt where smarter then that but deep inside you know that what happent there was an massacer

After all that massacre there is 250 000 Serbs less on Kosovo and 500 000 more Albanians. How is that possible?

[azemi]

I have noticed that all Shiptars here on this Forum know only to say that Serbs are bad and don't know nothing and that they are mass murders and ...................

I never heard any real prof which is not coming from some NATO spokesman.I think that all world know how true is that what NATO say.You have saw in Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran now.


its shqiptar you understand or dont you know how to write shka capice and yes serbs are bad not all but most of them are i dont know nothing pff i was there you kid when you where playing with your toys i was there in kosova in 97\98\99 and i am still here aint i from who do you want to come the news from when the whole world saw what you did only russia and greece back you up but greece said we will prob recognize kosova in some months wow you guys have some reall allies only backstabbers your alone serbs face it

[Relikt]

the same counts for you provide some facts and albania isnt under mafia control this is 2008 not the 90s anymore find me the facts about those 23,000 prisinores and 1 more thing i dont care what that helen rant whore says do you want me to post pictures and look for yourself if they where tortuered or not without half faces and no eyes no arms or legs and you tell me its an lie shame on you i thought you relikt where smarter then that but deep inside you know that what happent there was an massacer
Look there was very bad things done by our police but Rachak I dont think was that.
So now Helen Rant isnt good enough for you guys? Look their work was strictly professional, and I really dont see why we wouldnt believe in finish pathologists team.

[azemi]

After all that massacre there is 250 000 Serbs less on Kosovo and 500 000 more Albanians. How is that possible?

in 99 1 million albanians left their homes when albanians came back the serbs where afraid we might take revenge on them so they left it isnt like we went and killed them straight away if they want to leave sure we wont stop them we dont care about them

[azemi]

Look there was very bad things done by our police but Rachak I dont think was that.
So now Helen Rant isnt good enough for you guys? Look their work was strictly professional, and I really dont see why we wouldnt believe in finish pathologists team.

she isnt good enghouf no how can those guys have no faces or no eyes or no legs or no arms and tortuerded body how does that stinky whore explain that

[gisse]

in 99 1 million albanians left their homes when albanians came back the serbs where afraid we might take revenge on them so they left it isnt like we went and killed them straight away if they want to leave sure we wont stop them we dont care about them

why then during 1997-1999 was that many dead and missing Serbs in Kosovo?

Do you count in that 23 000 also those which you killed because they didn't want to fight against Serbs and those which NATO killed with theirs bombs?

You will care about them because they have lot of land in Kosovo and all that you will need to return in case you don't have valid papers. Lot of Serbs sold land but lot more didn't.It would be interesting to see demarcation of border.

[gisse]

she isnt good enghouf no how can those guys have no faces or no eyes or no legs or no arms and tortuerded body how does that stinky whore explain that

They had all parts of body except holes from bullets.You probably watched some photos from Vietnam war.

[azemi]

why then during 1997-1999 was that many dead and missing Serbs in Kosovo?

Do you count in that 23 000 also those which you killed because they didn't want to fight against Serbs and those which NATO killed with theirs bombs?

You will care about them because they have lot of land in Kosovo and all that you will need to return in case you don't have valid papers. Lot of Serbs sold land but lot more didn't.It would be interesting to see demarcation of border.
700 serb civillian died in total of wich the most cause of the nato bombing why did 23000 albanians die or are missing huh i see your an retard saying we killed the albanians wow your stupid get an life from now on i will discuss it with relikt not with you anymore

[azemi]

They had all parts of body except holes from bullets.You probably watched some photos from Vietnam war.

do you want me to post the pictures then do you you can see it for yourself now do you ?

[gisse]

700 serb civillian died in total of wich the most cause of the nato bombing why did 23000 albanians die or are missing huh i see your an retard saying we killed the albanians wow your stupid get an life from now on i will discuss it with relikt not with you anymore


No, i am saying that you where killing your own people if they didn't want to fight against Serbs. Albanians from Kosovo didn't want to fight against Serbs. Only Albanians which later come from Albania wanted that.Ask your parents what they didn't have in Serbia?Can you tell me please what Albanians didn't have in Serbia?One thing?

[azemi]

No, i am saying that you where killing your own people if they didn't want to fight against Serbs. Albanians from Kosovo didn't want to fight against Serbs. Only Albanians which later come from Albania wanted that.Ask your parents what they didn't have in Serbia?Can you tell me please what Albanians didn't have in Serbia?One thing?

ok here is 1 thing they didnt have rights

[gisse]

do you want me to post the pictures then do you you can see it for yourself now do you ?

Post. and there is still missing more then 2500 Serbs. I think that organization is called ""Zene u Crnom" which have data. I will check later and will send you.

I know that police during 1995-1999 was not nice to Albanians.

[gisse]

ok here is 1 thing they didnt have rights

And can you tell me what Albanians didn't have in Serbia?

[azemi]

Post. and there is still missing more then 2500 Serbs. I think that organization is called ""Zene u Crnom" which have data. I will check later and will send you.

I know that police during 1995-1999 was not nice to Albanians.

not nice lol they tried to kill all of the albanians thats more then just not nice not nice is giving you tickets or taking your car but trying to kill an entire race goes beyond not nice

[azemi]

And can you tell me what Albanians didn't have in Serbia?

they did not have rights

[gisse]

not nice lol they tried to kill all of the albanians thats more then just not nice not nice is giving you tickets or taking your car but trying to kill an entire race goes beyond not nice

Don't tell nonsense. If Serbs wanted to eradicate Albanians they could do that easy even now. Consequences would be tremendous for Serbia but that would not be problem.You still don't have strong army even in Albania.With out NATO you almost don't have chances.Be honest.I know that you are proud but that is true. Same as that Serbia don't have chances in long turns against NATO.

[gisse]

they did not have rights

Except right to have own university, to speak and write own language, to have own newspaper, TV, to have Albanian as one of official languages...

What i forgot, remind me...

Majority in parliament...

What else....

At least one time be honest and write true.

[azemi]

Don't tell nonsense. If Serbs wanted to eradicate Albanians they could do that easy even now. Consequences would be tremendous for Serbia but that would not be problem.You still don't have strong army even in Albania.With out NATO you almost don't have chances.Be honest.I know that you are proud but that is true. Same as that Serbia don't have chances in long turns against NATO.

We have chances enghouf chances we can take on serbia it will be an long war but in the end we will win ALbania is upgrading its army meaning they still need to buy new tanks,airplanes,artilley,sawl,attackhelicopters and so on most will get accomplished this year when we join in april this year but albania still has enghouf modern anti tanks to destroy 300 m84s and also the airdefense is more then good to destroy all of your airplanes ;) so it will be an ground war wich you will lose and you guys having an chance against nato hahahaha you will get slautgherd

[azemi]

Except right to have own university, to speak and write own language, to have own newspaper, TV, to have Albanian as one of official languages...

What i forgot, remind me...

Majority in parliament...

What else....

At least one time be honest and write true.

no jobs so meaning no food no money to buy things to have an normal what do you want more we where living like animals :frown3:

[gisse]

We have chances enghouf chances we can take on serbia it will be an long war but in the end we will win ALbania is upgrading its army meaning they still need to buy new tanks,airplanes,artilley,sawl,attackhelicopters and so on most will get accomplished this year when we join in april this year but albania still has enghouf modern anti tanks to destroy 300 m84s and also the airdefense is more then good to destroy all of your airplanes ;) so it will be an ground war wich you will lose and you guys having an chance against nato hahahaha you will get slautgherd

I see that you don't have any relevant answer on my question.All what you always doing when don't have what to answer are fair tales how you are big and brave and always right.

That stories they told to us also. We have passed that part 15 years ago.

They was talking to us same like to you that first was Serbs (Albanians) then ameba's and then rest of nation.

I thought that we can have some constructive talk but nothing from that.You will remember this in 15 years when forine help stop to come to Kosovo. Same as all ex Yugoslav's remembered how great was in SFRJ

[gisse]

no jobs so meaning no food no money to buy things to have an normal what do you want more we where living like animals :frown3:

By the law in every company was necessary to be at least 1/3 of Albanians.

[azemi]

I see that you don't have any relevant answer on my question.All what you always doing when don't have what to answer are fair tales how you are big and brave and always right.

That stories they told to us also. We have passed that part 15 years ago.

They was talking to us same like to you that first was Serbs (Albanians) then ameba's and then rest of nation.

I thought that we can have some constructive talk but nothing from that.You will remember this in 15 years when forine help stop to come to Kosovo. Same as all ex Yugoslav's remembered how great was in SFRJ

pff look who is talking -_- in 15 years we wil be an developed country 15 years is an long time 15 years ago look where serbia was and look how its know lol :tired1_24:

[azemi]

By the law in every company was necessary to be at least 1/3 of Albanians.

wow what an great milosevic propaganda

[gisse]

pff look who is talking -_- in 15 years we wil be an developed country 15 years is an long time 15 years ago look where serbia was and look how its know lol :tired1_24:

Well, look how Serbia looks now after 15 year of wars and sanctions ;)

For that time i think that look nice. Check it for next 15 years because Serbia produce all what is necessary for her.

Good night my dear friend even if you don't want to admit that.:biggrin1:

[gisse]

wow what an great milosevic propaganda

Check constitution

[azemi]

Well, look how Serbia looks now after 15 year of wars and sanctions ;)

For that time i think that look nice. Check it for next 15 years because Serbia produce all what is necessary for her.

Good night my dear friend even if you don't want to admit that.:biggrin1:

good night is it allready bed time >? your only managing cause you sold half of the valuabel things for an cheap price to russia but we will see when you will isolate yourself its beter for us when your not in nato or eu i hope you guys never join its beter for us for the croats,bosnians, and albanians wich are your enemies look around mine friend whole balkans hate you --_--

[gisse]

good night is it allready bed time >? your only managing cause you sold half of the valuabel things for an cheap price to russia but we will see when you will isolate yourself its beter for us when your not in nato or eu i hope you guys never join its beter for us for the croats,bosnians, and albanians wich are your enemies look around mine friend whole balkans hate you --_--

I also hope that Serbia will never join EU. Ask Polish guys. payment there is 100 euros higher then is Serbia, only thing they have better is used cars from Germany.

It is bed time here, tomorrow need to work.

[azemi]

I also hope that Serbia will never join EU. Ask Polish guys. payment there is 100 euros higher then is Serbia, only thing they have better is used cars from Germany.

It is bed time here, tomorrow need to work.

wow thats early i wake up each morning at 6 o clock but i never go to bed this early anyways goodnight

[Relikt]

they did not have rights
Can you be more specific. They had some rights and some they didnt had. As I know they were fired from their jobs because they didnt want to sign some loyalty paper which Serbs signed.

As I remember in 1968 Albanians also protest and scream "kosovo republik" what was problem then?

[parm3nion]

u all can say what u want but if it was not america and germany albania would be back in asia and tirana would be new serbian province.
So albanians wannabe ilirians (LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL) i still wait for your sources about your claims! U are only talking talking talking talking talking talking talking.
In fact u only hide behind uncle sam. Guys balkan people have balls they dont hide. Meh u arent from balkan so u can hide. cheers

[skampa]

u all can say what u want but if it was not america and germany albania would be back in asia and tirana would be new serbian province.
So albanians wannabe ilirians (LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL) i still wait for your sources about your claims! U are only talking talking talking talking talking talking talking.
In fact u only hide behind uncle sam. Guys balkan people have balls they dont hide. Meh u arent from balkan so u can hide. cheers

Hehe Funny guy.
Here take a look. According to this source we are closest genetically to Austrians. We were on the border with them before the Slavic invasion, since we were Illyrians.

http://www.irandefence.net/showthread.php?p=229592#post229592

Oh what does the name Bardhylli mean in Greek or Serbian or whatever? He was the most important Illyrian king. It means white star in Albanian. Bardh-white, ylli-star. There are so many others like this. Quite a coincidence wouldn't you say. Most of the Scholars agree that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians with possibly Thracian mixture. The very few who do not are mostly Serbs, Greeks or Ruskies who could use their conclusion for political reasons. Hell, even the Tsar Lasar (if that's how you spell it) monkeys admitted we were Illyrian.
Albania itself was a tribe of Illyria. There is no dispute here.

The toponym Arbon (Άρβων or Αρβών) is mentioned by Polybius in the History of the World (second century BC). The people who lived there were called Arbonitai (Αρβωνίται). Biris relates the name Arbon with the name Arbanitai, and notes the similarities of Arbon with Arben and Arbana.


Hehe look at that
Albanoi first occurs in extant written sources in a work of Ptolemy dating back to 130 AD. "Albanopolis of the Albanoi" appears on a map of Ptolemy, a place located in what is now North central Albania.

The Illyrians did not have a written language so this a draw-back but there is genetic, linguistic, customary, and historical evidence that Albanians are in fact Illyrian. The only opposition I have come across is from Ignorant Serbs and Greeks who claim that we came from space, or might as well do that, or some ignorant reporter looking for a story contrary to what evidence supports so that he may shock the uneducated general public (that's you) and get a broader audience.

What I and some others find interesting is that many Greek pagan gods can perfectly be explained in Albanian, which gives way to suspicion if the Greek gods really were Greek or Borrowed from Illyrians, or Pellazgians. This is just an unproven thesis so do not come and attack me if it is proven wrong. Some evidence of this is that:

Aphrodite could have come from the Albanian word Aferdita (meaning near the day or dawn). Since the sunrise is considered beautiful this may have come to be a name for beautiful girls.

Athena could have come from E'thena (Albanian for that which is said, or wise word).

Thetis could have come from Deti (Albanian for sea)

Anyhow you are obviously very ignorant and you just wasted some time for me. I suggest you read more and talk less. I no longer wish to communicate with you until you gather a decent amount of knowledge. Good luck!!!

PS the word Illyrian itself can be interpreted in Albanian as the land of the free.

[gisse]

Hehe Funny guy.
Here take a look. According to this source we are closest genetically to Austrians. We were on the border with them before the Slavic invasion, since we were Illyrians.

http://www.irandefence.net/showthread.php?p=229592#post229592

Oh what does the name Bardhylli mean in Greek or Serbian or whatever? He was the most important Illyrian king. It means white star in Albanian. Bardh-white, ylli-star. There are so many others like this. Quite a coincidence wouldn't you say. Most of the Scholars agree that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians with possibly Thracian mixture. The very few who do not are mostly Serbs, Greeks or Ruskies who could use their conclusion for political reasons. Hell, even the Tsar Lasar (if that's how you spell it) monkeys admitted we were Illyrian.
Albania itself was a tribe of Illyria. There is no dispute here.




Hehe look at that


The Illyrians did not have a written language so this a draw-back but there is genetic, linguistic, customary, and historical evidence that Albanians are in fact Illyrian. The only opposition I have come across is from Ignorant Serbs and Greeks who claim that we came from space, or might as well do that, or some ignorant reporter looking for a story contrary to what evidence supports so that he may shock the uneducated general public (that's you) and get a broader audience.

What I and some others find interesting is that many Greek pagan gods can perfectly be explained in Albanian, which gives way to suspicion if the Greek gods really were Greek or Borrowed from Illyrians, or Pellazgians. This is just an unproven thesis so do not come and attack me if it is proven wrong. Some evidence of this is that:

Aphrodite could have come from the Albanian word Aferdita (meaning near the day or dawn). Since the sunrise is considered beautiful this may have come to be a name for beautiful girls.

Athena could have come from E'thena (Albanian for that which is said, or wise word).

Thetis could have come from Deti (Albanian for sea)

Anyhow you are obviously very ignorant and you just wasted some time for me. I suggest you read more and talk less. I no longer wish to communicate with you until you gather a decent amount of knowledge. Good luck!!!

PS the word Illyrian itself can be interpreted in Albanian as the land of the free.


About name, you could get it from that what was there. Same like Bulgarian got name from other tribe which dominated some time over them but was assimilated because Slavs (now Bulgarians) had bigger population.

Can you please tell me where Car Lazar told you that you are Ilirians?

If you know to read Serbian please read.
"http://www.klanrur.co.yu/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t47854.html"
"http://www.yurope.com/zines/republika/arhiva/98/192/192_8.HTM"
Maybe that is not official history but it is close to that.

First scripts about Albanians on Balkan was in 9. century.

And this is map made in time of Karlo the Great.
"http://www.dejanlucic.net/cirilica/images/top3-2.gif"
same map from German Wikipedia
"http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Europe_814.jpg "

This is Franch map made in 1914.
"http://www.antikvarne-knjige.com/mape/files/etno_macedonie_1914.jpg"

And one more thing, Your so preshes Skender-beg officially was write in old Serbian ;) He was great man.

And yes, do you know who is Esad-pasa?

[Relikt]

Hey guys please dont start this argue again. Gisse I dont see how genetic origin is relative. I am still waiting azemi to answer on my question about human rights.

Also what is funny to me is statement of western states that independent Kosovo will bring peace in region while Albanians announce Macedonia is next.

[skampa]

Funny guy too. We had an argument just like this a year ago in some Dukovich thread. So you are basically claiming that There were two Albanias, one in the Balkans (since there is written evidence) and the other one in the Caucus. And then all of a sudden in the 10th cent. the Albanians in the Caucus decided to move. But, they did not move just anywhere, no, no, they moved exactly where the Balkans Albania was so that their descendants later can say we are from the Balkans Albania. :roflmao3::roflmao3:

First, the Caucus Albania was a misspelling to the best of my knowledge. I have heard Alania mostly, followed by Aghania, etc.
Second, in the 10 cent. the Balkans were already settled, and kingdoms were not just going to allow a whole group of immigrants to move thought there Kingdom, let alone that there is absolutely no evidence of such a movement.
Third, why out of all the places would these Alanians chose to move to Albania?
Fourth, what do you have to say to the linguistic evidence, as Bardhylli. It is exactly letter for letter correct. Take a look at more words if not convinced:
http://www.illyrians.org/illyrian-alb.html
What, about the genetic evidence. If we truly were from Alania wouldn't we be closest to the Armenians, or Azeris.
Fourth, What about lack of historical evidence to support such a ridiculous claim.

Hehe, your source was a forum. Are you that desperate for sources to support your ridiculous claims that you bring forward articles which might have as well been written by you. And no I do not read Serbian. And even if I could I would not read that biased untrue crap. I rarely even read Albanian articles, I usually read western articles as they tend to be unbiased.

I saw the map, So now the Serbs claim that they had almost all of Greece? The Greeks aren't going to be happy about that.

Oh and I almost forgot yesterday. How rude of me, To all Greeks everywhere, From the bottom of my heart I congratulate you for being the only Europeans who are genetically related tot the Ethiopians!

[skampa]

Now if you buffoons don't mind I will write an essay on Columbus, I have already wasted enough time with these ridiculous conspiracy theories.

[gisse]

Funny guy too. We had an argument just like this a year ago in some Dukovich thread. So you are basically claiming that There were two Albanias, one in the Balkans (since there is written evidence) and the other one in the Caucus. And then all of a sudden in the 10th cent. the Albanians in the Caucus decided to move. But, they did not move just anywhere, no, no, they moved exactly where the Balkans Albania was so that their descendants later can say we are from the Balkans Albania. :roflmao3::roflmao3:

First, the Caucus Albania was a misspelling to the best of my knowledge. I have heard Alania mostly, followed by Aghania, etc.
Second, in the 10 cent. the Balkans were already settled, and kingdoms were not just going to allow a whole group of immigrants to move thought there Kingdom, let alone that there is absolutely no evidence of such a movement.
Third, why out of all the places would these Alanians chose to move to Albania?
Fourth, what do you have to say to the linguistic evidence, as Bardhylli. It is exactly letter for letter correct. Take a look at more words if not convinced:
http://www.illyrians.org/illyrian-alb.html
What, about the genetic evidence. If we truly were from Alania wouldn't we be closest to the Armenians, or Azeris.
Fourth, What about lack of historical evidence to support such a ridiculous claim.

Hehe, your source was a forum. Are you that desperate for sources to support your ridiculous claims that you bring forward articles which might have as well been written by you. And no I do not read Serbian. And even if I could I would not read that biased untrue crap. I rarely even read Albanian articles, I usually read western articles as they tend to be unbiased.

I saw the map, So now the Serbs claim that they had almost all of Greece? The Greeks aren't going to be happy about that.

Oh and I almost forgot yesterday. How rude of me, To all Greeks everywhere, From the bottom of my heart I congratulate you for being the only Europeans who are genetically related tot the Ethiopians!

Well, i have read in couple places that Albanians where nomads in Balkan but they was not connected with Ilirians. They sad that because of language difference.

It is possible that Albanians where on Balkan before Slavs but it is also possible that they come there with Bulgarian tribe from Iran.That part for 10 century was written from some Vizantian guy, i forgot name.


But it is enough from me to go of topic. Thanks to admins that they didn't ban me and Azemy for yesterday long talks.

[Argon637]

This is the single most ridiculous thread in posting history of computer era.

According to these washed-up serbian patriots, NATO lost like a dozen fleets of Nighthawks, Eagles and Vipers...

Another ******** is that it's really true that these plain poor Serbians are really buying this crap, which makes them World Champions in propaganda, mythologies and utter lies.

But on the other hand, I really don't want to insult no one, but it's symptomatic how they are able to make their roles from bullies to victims and place the 1999 blame on NATO?

This is something really, really disgusting, knowing that they will teach their kids with the same patriotic myths and lies that they have been feeding all of the soldiers that lost the war for Serbia in Slovenia, lost the war in Croatia, lost the war in Bosnia, lost the war in Kosovo, lost territory of Montenegro and now lost Kosovo.

And for one coutry to have such losses in 10 year span and still think they're the victims is really beyond comprehension for any half-normal brain on this planet.

You may describe this post as a flame, but it isn't...true flame is this ********, these lies about NATO losses, the way the serbs are turning the 10 years of terror on neighbour countries into their own sorrow. They wanted the war, they started the war, they lost every single aspect of that war but still they don't stop lying and fooling themselves, even after 10 years.

It sickens me, but on the other hand, I+m not the one living in the only country in Europe that had cities bombed at the end of 20th century, in the country that is under sanctions, poverty, corrupt crooks and thugs who kill democratic politicians etc. That's something I wouldnt be proud of, but they are.

They goverment fell apart few days ago, and the Radical Party with killers like Seselj and Nikolic are peoples favourite. Now how's that for pride.

So, if the young blindfolded serbs are ready to take the ******** from their elders about the famous serbian victories (where in fact there weren't any), about their pride they have (is Vukovar and Srebrenica something to be proud of? Sarajevo? And that's just the tip of the iceberg, I'm not getting into details at all...) and lastly, their military.

Their complete airforce is property of Yugoslavia, Titos regime and funding. When USSR and communist regime fell apart, Yugoslavia was bound to fall apart, but under the lies of "keeping the Yugoslavia together" they started a war, for their twisted idea of Great Serbia, and in process they stole most of the weapons, including airforce from once Yugoslavia's military. Which makes them thiefs also.

So, I don't see what pride do they have, I feel bad for normal serbs that see the true situation Serbia gotten into, but unfortunately, as always, the peasants, the dumb and nacionalistic people are always the louder crowd....

So, keep on bring on the estimated losses of NATO if that feeds your petty soul, the others know the truth, you got stomped, by every of your opponents, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and now - Kosovo.

You had everything, you lost it, and now you trying to twist the story in your own favour. Well, unfortunately, the rest of the world just won't buy that crap. Sorry.

[gisse]

This is the single most ridiculous post in posting history of computer era.

According to these washed-up serbian patriots, NATO lost like a dozen fleets of Nighthawks, Eagles and Vipers...

Another ******** is that it's really true that these plain poor Serbians are really buying this crap, which makes them World Champions in propaganda, mythologies and utter lies.

But on the other hand, I really don't want to insult no one, but it's symptomatic how they are able to make their roles from bullies to victims and place the 1999 blame on NATO?

This is something really, really disgusting, knowing that they will teach their kids with the same patriotic myths and lies that they have been feeding all of the soldiers that lost the war for Serbia in Slovenia, lost the war in Croatia, lost the war in Bosnia, lost the war in Kosovo, lost territory of Montenegro and now lost Kosovo.

And for one coutry to have such losses in 10 year span and still think they're the victims is really beyond comprehension for any half-normal brain on this planet.

You may describe this post as a flame, but it isn't...true flame is this ********, these lies about NATO losses, the way the serbs are turning the 10 years of terror on neighbour countries into their own sorrow. They wanted the war, they started the war, they lost every single aspect of that war but still they don't stop lying and fooling themselves, even after 10 years.

It sickens me, but on the other hand, I+m not the one living in the only country in Europe that had cities bombed at the end of 20th century, in the country that is under sanctions, poverty, corrupt crooks and thugs who kill democratic politicians etc. That's something I wouldnt be proud of, but they are.

They goverment fell apart few days ago, and the Radical Party with killers like Seselj and Nikolic are peoples favourite. Now how's that for pride.

So, if the young blindfolded serbs are ready to take the ******** from their elders about the famous serbian victories (where in fact there weren't any), about their pride they have (is Vukovar and Srebrenica something to be proud of? Sarajevo? And that's just the tip of the iceberg, I'm not getting into details at all...) and lastly, their military.

Their complete airforce is property of Yugoslavia, Titos regime and funding. When USSR and communist regime fell apart, Yugoslavia was bound to fall apart, but under the lies of "keeping the Yugoslavia together" they started a war, for their twisted idea of Great Serbia, and in process they stole most of the weapons, including airforce from once Yugoslavia's military. Which makes them thiefs also.

So, I don't see what pride do they have, I feel bad for normal serbs that see the true situation Serbia gotten into, but unfortunately, as always, the peasants, the dumb and nacionalistic people are always the louder crowd....

So, keep on bring on the estimated losses of NATO if that feeds your petty soul, the others know the truth, you got stomped, by every of your opponents, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and now - Kosovo.

You had everything, you lost it, and now you trying to twist the story in your own favour. Well, unfortunately, the rest of the world just won't buy that crap. Sorry.

I see that you are person with all information and with full history facts in one place ;)

I agree, there wasn't so much planes.

Montenegro is not lost.

Bosnia is 49% Serbian.

Please get in details, i would like that.You will be just one more with mouth shut.

:xmas_emot3:

read this please
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbophobia"

[Argon637]

Hey, you can shut my mouth, you can shut anybodies mouth, see what I care.

But you won't prove me different then that you lost the whole war.

You won't prove me that you battled Vukovar for 90 days from distance, until you destroyed the whole city (in which there were 50% serbs), you attacked Sarajevo from the hills, and you have numerous records of camps, slaughters, murders, mass graves etc.

So, shut my mouth, but hey, you keep fighting the windmills...

Truth is what it is, and no ban from forum will change it, ever. So...yeah, I have my facts right, I know who lost, I know who cried about "bombings" and was on that "oh poor us, they bombing us" wagon, but at the same time screamed Milosevics name, supported his policy and hoped that he takes over half of Croatia and Bosnia...

Well...I'm sorry, but that didnt' and wont happend, in fact, you keep losing, on daily basis, but - if you will take pride in losses, please do, I don't really care what you are doing as long as you don't interfere with other people's lives as you oh so dearly done in the past.

So, to conclude my post, get off my back with that Serbophobia ****, I'm not buying that either, please don't try to make Serbians modern jews and turn 1999 into your own holocaust.

You are just one poor, peasant and nationalistic bunch, and well, you didnt succeed in your intentions while others did.

I know losing is a bitter pill to swallow but hey - somebody has to do it.

The reason I posted this, is cause the fact that anybody would actually believe that NATO lost like 2525 boats, 5256125 planes and 50932'658'85'981' dollars fihting the Mighty serbs is pure comedy.

[gisse]

Hey, you can shut my mouth, you can shut anybodies mouth, see what I care.

But you won't prove me different then that you lost the whole war.

You won't prove me that you battled Vukovar for 90 days from distance, until you destroyed the whole city (in which there were 50% serbs), you attacked Sarajevo from the hills, and you have numerous records of camps, slaughters, murders, mass graves etc.

So, shut my mouth, but hey, you keep fighting the windmills...

Truth is what it is, and no ban from forum will change it, ever. So...yeah, I have my facts right, I know who lost, I know who cried about "bombings" and was on that "oh poor us, they bombing us" wagon, but at the same time screamed Milosevics name, supported his policy and hoped that he takes over half of Croatia and Bosnia...

Well...I'm sorry, but that didnt' and wont happend, in fact, you keep losing, on daily basis, but - if you will take pride in losses, please do, I don't really care what you are doing as long as you don't interfere with other people's lives as you oh so dearly done in the past.

So, to conclude my post, get off my back with that Serbophobia ****, I'm not buying that either, please don't try to make Serbians modern jews and turn 1999 into your own holocaust.

You are just one poor, peasant and nationalistic bunch, and well, you didnt succeed in your intentions while others did.

I know losing is a bitter pill to swallow but hey - somebody has to do it.

The reason I posted this, is cause the fact that anybody would actually believe that NATO lost like 2525 boats, 5256125 planes and 50932'658'85'981' dollars fihting the Mighty serbs is pure comedy.

In Vukovar still was JNA, not Serbian Army.

Please read some posts back.

If you don't want to believe to my posts then go on Google and try to find something what CNN or BBC didn't post. You have lot of UN reports about Masrkale, Srebrenica, Racak and all talk one thing. All that stink bad.

I am glad that you are interested in this subject. :)

[azrael]

Montenegro is not lost.
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbophobia"

What are you smoking? How strong is your bloody hash? Montenegro is gone, it declared independence and even claimed they were victims of serb aggression

.http://www.me/english/naslovna/index.htm

And the only serbiaphobia I know of is that which rape victims have when they see serbs with guns.

[Gon4z]

Oh and I almost forgot yesterday. How rude of me, To all Greeks everywhere, From the bottom of my heart I congratulate you for being the only Europeans who are genetically related tot the Ethiopians!
HEHEHEHEHHEHE :roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3:

[Gon4z]

Well, i have read in couple places that Albanians where nomads in Balkan but they was not connected with Ilirians. They sad that because of language difference.

It is possible that Albanians where on Balkan before Slavs but it is also possible that they come there with Bulgarian tribe from Iran.That part for 10 century was written from some Vizantian guy, i forgot name.


But it is enough from me to go of topic. Thanks to admins that they didn't ban me and Azemy for yesterday long talks.

You have been reading crap.

Albanian language is 75% - 80% identical to the ancient illyrian one it is very understandable that its not 100% becuase there is no such thing on earth Iranians don't speak the actually Persian language that was spoken, the English don't speak the proper saxon language once spoke their languages don't even relate 50% to their ancient language but they are still ancient people.
Albanian is almost identical to the ancient illyrian language and no foreign tribe can learn that and completely adopt it.... whats more our language is proven to be illyrian because it does not fall in any language family in the world Albanian is the only indigenous language on earth, every language falls into a family except for Albanian/Illyrian.

Your claim of Albanians being Iranians is totally observed no that I have anything against Iranian but there is not a single proof that we come from the middle east or Asia or Africa.
There are only two theroy for origins of ALBANIANS:

1 = is that we are Illyrians and have been living in Balkans for a minimum of 10,000 years & all land south of DANUBE belonged to us, a fact with around 90% of the world accept.

2 = or that Albanians are Thracians, that lived in east Balkans (todays Bulgaria) for around several thousand years (still before Serbs and slavs) a theory that is supported by CLEVER Serbs, Greeks & Macedonians simply for the fact to try to denounce Albania from claiming their land. this theroy is completely dismissed by the knowledgeable world and accept the 1st theroy.



and there is a 3rd theory that has no proof what so ever its totally **** CRAP but idiotic Greeks, Serbs, Macedonians and some otehr slavs claim that we are Turks or Azeris or Iranians that moved to Balkans during ottoman empire less than 1,000 years.... this si such **** crap that any person that knows something about history would laugh at you for bring in it up.

[Gon4z]

Montenegro is not lost.

Bosnia is 49% Serbian.

Please get in details, i would like that.You will be just one more with mouth shut.

:xmas_emot3:

read this please
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbophobia"

150,000 of Montenegro is made up of Muslims Albanians & Boshnjaks and that number is growing everyday.
Serbs make 170,000 of the population in Montenegro & the Montenegrins make up 265,000 people 20,000 is made up of other ethnicities.

Montenegro's Serbs & Montenegrins & no Muslim population is very fast decreasing Albanians are the fastest growing there, BOSHNJAKS Following so withing the next 20 years that country will be with an Albanian majority and a large Boshnjak minority. same as Macedonia that country will be with an Albanian majority by 2030.


as for Bosnia well that will take longer but sooner or later it will fall completely into the hands of Boshnjaks, unless there is war or something...lol :worried2:

[skampa]

You have been reading crap.

Albanian language is 75% - 80% identical to the ancient illyrian one it is very understandable that its not 100% becuase there is no such thing on earth Iranians don't speak the actually Persian language that was spoken, the English don't speak the proper saxon language once spoke their languages don't even relate 50% to their ancient language but they are still ancient people.
Albanian is almost identical to the ancient illyrian language and no foreign tribe can learn that and completely adopt it.... whats more our language is proven to be illyrian because it does not fall in any language family in the world Albanian is the only indigenous language on earth, every language falls into a family except for Albanian/Illyrian.

Your claim of Albanians being Iranians is totally observed no that I have anything against Iranian but there is not a single proof that we come from the middle east or Asia or Africa.
There are only two theroy for origins of ALBANIANS:

1 = is that we are Illyrians and have been living in Balkans for a minimum of 10,000 years & all land south of DANUBE belonged to us, a fact with around 90% of the world accept.

2 = or that Albanians are Thracians, that lived in east Balkans (todays Bulgaria) for around several thousand years (still before Serbs and slavs) a theory that is supported by CLEVER Serbs, Greeks & Macedonians simply for the fact to try to denounce Albania from claiming their land. this theroy is completely dismissed by the knowledgeable world and accept the 1st theroy.



and there is a 3rd theory that has no proof what so ever its totally **** CRAP but idiotic Greeks, Serbs, Macedonians and some otehr slavs claim that we are Turks or Azeris or Iranians that moved to Balkans during ottoman empire less than 1,000 years.... this si such **** crap that any person that knows something about history would laugh at you for bring in it up.

Don`t bother, it is a waste of time. Not all people were made for academic research, it is as simple as that. Let him live in his own fantasy world.

[gisse]

You have been reading crap.

Albanian language is 75% - 80% identical to the ancient illyrian one it is very understandable that its not 100% becuase there is no such thing on earth Iranians don't speak the actually Persian language that was spoken, the English don't speak the proper saxon language once spoke their languages don't even relate 50% to their ancient language but they are still ancient people.
Albanian is almost identical to the ancient illyrian language and no foreign tribe can learn that and completely adopt it.... whats more our language is proven to be illyrian because it does not fall in any language family in the world Albanian is the only indigenous language on earth, every language falls into a family except for Albanian/Illyrian.

Your claim of Albanians being Iranians is totally observed no that I have anything against Iranian but there is not a single proof that we come from the middle east or Asia or Africa.
There are only two theroy for origins of ALBANIANS:

1 = is that we are Illyrians and have been living in Balkans for a minimum of 10,000 years & all land south of DANUBE belonged to us, a fact with around 90% of the world accept.

2 = or that Albanians are Thracians, that lived in east Balkans (todays Bulgaria) for around several thousand years (still before Serbs and slavs) a theory that is supported by CLEVER Serbs, Greeks & Macedonians simply for the fact to try to denounce Albania from claiming their land. this theroy is completely dismissed by the knowledgeable world and accept the 1st theroy.



and there is a 3rd theory that has no proof what so ever its totally **** CRAP but idiotic Greeks, Serbs, Macedonians and some otehr slavs claim that we are Turks or Azeris or Iranians that moved to Balkans during ottoman empire less than 1,000 years.... this si such **** crap that any person that knows something about history would laugh at you for bring in it up.


All that is nice but how the oldest Balkan culture is old 6500 years 4500BC??



About that under Ottomans, well, part of you are from there, you are mixture same like Bulgarians.

[gisse]

What are you smoking? How strong is your bloody hash? Montenegro is gone, it declared independence and even claimed they were victims of serb aggression

.http://www.me/english/naslovna/index.htm

And the only serbiaphobia I know of is that which rape victims have when they see serbs with guns.

When will you post some source for your words, at least wiki if you don't have anything else?

[gisse]

Don`t bother, it is a waste of time. Not all people were made for academic research, it is as simple as that. Let him live in his own fantasy world.

And you have done so much academical researches. Give one please :)

Or to let you live with your side of medal?

[gisse]

HEHEHEHEHHEHE :roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3:

Добро је што си почео да учиш Ћирилицу :)

[Gon4z]

All that is nice but how the oldest Balkan culture is old 6500 years 4500BC??
Europe has been populated for over 25,000 years and Balkans & todays Turkey were the first places.
Man has still not found enough evidance for the sort of cultures Europe had before 10,000 years ago.

About that under Ottomans, well, part of you are from there, you are mixture same like Bulgarians.
Ummm.... again you have shown to pretty clew less, Albanians have no jeans associated with any people neither European or Asian people so stop pulling stuff from your butt.

[gisse]

Europe has been populated for over 25,000 years and Balkans & todays Turkey were the first places.
Man has still not found enough evidance for the sort of cultures Europe had before 10,000 years ago.


Ummm.... again you have shown to pretty clew less, Albanians have no jeans associated with any people neither European or Asian people so stop pulling stuff from your butt.

But you still say that you are 10000 years here and there is no evidence??????


Then from where you are when you don't have jeans associated with any others????

[mustavaris]

To put it short:

It seems that Europe was inhabitated in few waves. And the genetical map shows divisions, and from them one can see the population movements. Albanian and Basque people seem to be from the older period and have rather solid & homogenous genetical heritage, and some other people have similar influences though in varying degrees.

For example Finnish genes include a little bit of old stuff (though cranial measurements show rather clear connection to Cro Magnons..), but we are mainly made of younger Indo-European and Siberian/Asiatic genes.

[Gon4z]

Добро је што си почео да учиш Ћирилицу :)

Jest JA učen Ćirilica iz televizija pa oba Bugarski & Srpski jezik malo, JA isto početi znanje Arapski to lice od TO BE u prezentu dobar za knotkle mnogobrojan jezik
Žalostan da moj srpski nije vrlo dobar pa današji lice od TO BE u prezentu dobro Engleski jezik hod

[Gon4z]

But you still say that you are 10000 years here and there is no evidence??????


Then from where you are when you don't have jeans associated with any others????

There is evidance up to 10,000 years In my opinion we were there much longer than 10,000 years but 10,000 is all we can prove since science has still not gone that far.

Well mate I dunno where I'm from I want alive 50,000 years ago, all I know is that Albanians like all other human being on earth descent from ADAM & EVE... :smile1:

[Gon4z]

To put it short:

It seems that Europe was inhabitated in few waves. And the genetical map shows divisions, and from them one can see the population movements. Albanian and Basque people seem to be from the older period and have rather solid & homogenous genetical heritage, and some other people have similar influences though in varying degrees.

For example Finnish genes include a little bit of old stuff (though cranial measurements show rather clear connection to Cro Magnons..), but we are mainly made of younger Indo-European and Siberian/Asiatic genes.

You put it very nicely.

[gisse]

Jest JA učen Ćirilica iz televizija pa oba Bugarski & Srpski jezik malo, JA isto početi znanje Arapski to 3. lice od TO BE u prezentu dobar za knotkle mnogobrojan jezik
Žalostan da moj srpski nije vrlo dobar pa današji lice od TO BE u prezentu dobro Engleski jezik hod

:smile1::biggrin1:Great man.

:smile1:

[gisse]

There is evidance up to 10,000 years In my opinion we were there much longer than 10,000 years but 10,000 is all we can prove since science has still not gone that far.

Well mate I dunno where I'm from I want alive 50,000 years ago, all I know is that Albanians like all other human being on earth descent from ADAM & EVE... :smile1:

:smile1:

It is possible that Albanians have left from Ilirians but i have read on lot of places that they have different language, not like you sad Sacksons and English language.But also on lot places they sad that they are Ilirians. ?????

[Gon4z]

:smile1:
It is possible that Albanians have left from Ilirians but i have read on lot of places that they have different language, not like you sad Sacksons and English language.But also on lot places they sad that they are Ilirians. ?????

Well if you are reading Serbian, Macedonian & Greek propaganda then you really should STOP... read some western writing its from a third party they don't take sides but they all say Albanians descent from Illyrians & our language is almost identical.

[ahmed_mayyat]

I tried to post link(s) but I need 30 posts before I can post link(s).

[gisse]

Well if you are reading Serbian, Macedonian & Greek propaganda then you really should STOP... read some western writing its from a third party they don't take sides but they all say Albanians descent from Illyrians & our language is almost identical.

Why did i even try?:tired1_24:

[lowe1941 Ahmagh]

NATO in the war with Yugoslav lost 1 AH-64 Helicopter,,, two American pilots of the helicopter, Army Chief Warrant Officers David Gibbs and Kevin L. Reichert, died in that crash. They were the only NATO casualties during the war, according to NATO official statements.

The alliance reported the loss of the first U.S. stealth plane (a F-117 stealth fighter) ever shot down by enemy fire.[49]

After the war, the alliance reported the loss of the first U.S. stealth plane (a F-117 stealth fighter) ever shot down by enemy fire.[49] Furthermore 32 unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) from different nations were lost.[citation needed] The wreckages of downed UAVs were shown on Serbian television during the war and reported as being downed allied aircraft.

The Yugoslav armed forces claimed to have shot down seven helicopters, 30 UAVs, 61 planes and 238 cruise missiles, counting only those they said crashed within the territory of Yugoslavia.

This pretty well how one sided it would be in a war between the USA and Iran. Yugoslav got its *** kicked bad,,,,with out almost any losses by Nato...they Yugoslav,, is so embarassed,, they lie like an Arab.

[lowe1941 Ahmagh]

NATO losses

Tail and canopy of F-16C shot down on May 2, 1999. Museum of Aviation in Belgrade, SerbiaMilitary casualties on the NATO side were light—according to official reports the alliance suffered no fatalities as a result of combat operations. However, in the early hours of May 5, an American military AH-64 Apache helicopter crashed not far from the border between Kosovo and Albania.[46]

An American AH-64 helicopter crashed about 40 miles (64 km) northeast of Tirana, Albania's capital, very close to the Albanian/Kosovo border.[47] According to CNN the crash happened 45 miles (72 km) northeast of Tirana.[48] The two American pilots of the helicopter, Army Chief Warrant Officers David Gibbs and Kevin L. Reichert, died in that crash. They were the only NATO casualties during the war, according to NATO official statements.

There were other casualties after the war, mostly due to land mines. After the war, the alliance reported the loss of the first U.S. stealth plane (a F-117 stealth fighter) ever shot down by enemy fire.[49] Furthermore 32 unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) from different nations were lost.[citation needed] The wreckages of downed UAVs were shown on Serbian television during the war and reported as being downed allied aircraft. Most of these cases could be proved to be Serbian propaganda, because many of the types reportedly shot down were not used in the war at all. A second F-117A was also heavily damaged, and although it made it back to its base, it never flew again.[50] The Yugoslav armed forces claimed to have shot down seven helicopters, 30 UAVs, 61 planes and 238 cruise missiles, counting only those they said crashed within the territory of Yugoslavia. I assume we are talking about the same war...:roflmao3:

[lowe1941 Ahmagh]

US Army sources report that 14 Abrams tanks were damaged and two destroyed during the war. US Tank Losses in the Iraq War,, hell we are not supermen,,, Nato lost about 3 planes in the war with Yugoslavia,, was wondering when you are hiding planes in tunnels are they much use.

[gisse]

US Army sources report that 14 Abrams tanks were damaged and two destroyed during the war. US Tank Losses in the Iraq War,, hell we are not supermen,,, Nato lost about 3 planes in the war with Yugoslavia,, was wondering when you are hiding planes in tunnels are they much use.

well, that is number of planes they say. Yugoslavian numbers are to high to be true, for planes. There was maybe that many hits of airplanes but i don't think that all was down.

When you have only systems which can shot to 5-6000m then you can't shoot down airplane which is on 10 000m.

US airplanes didn't go lower because they didn't have b**ls to have precise shoot on they targets and they is why they didn't do nothing to Yugoslavian Army.

Have you checked number of planes used bu NATO and US?Have you checked amount and type of airplanes Yugoslavia had?Why to send airplanes to be shoot down first day when you expects land invasion?

Well, yes NATO have destroyed Yugoslavia but only economically not military. They bombed power plants, TV station, markets..... All that with cluster bombs and uranium.

[iskander]

:Hello to everyone on this forum. I`m reading some posts about defending Serbian border on the line of Koshare...I was fighting on Koshare (border). The many albanian soldiers (KLA) was drogged, only in that way thay will be brave. Every time, when we organize contraatac, in theirs rows we founding injections with drogs. Just in two days we are killed more than 1000 KLA "fighters". The KLA strategic was frontal atac, no mether on casulties, with no elementary military knowlege...But that is problem of KLA...Only problem we had with italians light artilery. They are good. Not eficciency with ours casulties, but we had wounded soldiers...(I think you underdstand me)...And something else - only 472 soldiers defending border on the line of Koshare. Just enough for our enemy on the other side of border...
Big greetings for Serbian special forces, specially for antiterorist unite of military police from Pristina - brothers - for Serbia and Serbian kingdom - united in batlle for name of Serbia...Za Srbiju i Srpstvo - ujedinjeni u borbi za ime i cast Srbije !!!

[Bumble Bee]

Massage for NATO and America 1999.

"Let them know (NATO) that hell awaits them here. The people and the Army are determined to defend Kosovo at any price. The price which we are offering, they can not afford. They can not enter our territory without great casualties. Naturaly, our casualties are also inevitable. But, if they come here, they have to know that they will not survive, and that they would, for days and months, face a slow and horrible death. Our strength, their fear, despair and uncertainty will kill them."
-Lt. General Nebojsa Pavkovic

Map of killed and captured pilot's

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4715/yumapkilledandcaptured5db.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Map of shot down planes & helicopter's

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/2180/orloviranolete5bj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)But now Serbia has disarmed and lost Kosovo. They had potential but have been downgraded by the United States. They have no allies because no one really stand beside them inconflicts.

[DeepEyes]

They have no allies because no one really stand beside them inconflicts.

Serbia never had any allies, except Greece (Balcan wars 1912. , WWI and WWII)
And Biggest enemy of Serbia is Germany and Vatican ( in last 100 years Germany attacked us for 3 times, killed about 3 million Serbs in WWI and WWII which is 30% of today's population of Serbs on Balkans...)

To make it clear. Bulgaria were more natural ally of Russia, so during history they support them more than Serbia.
And oh the west, Croatians (as Roman catholic) were always supported by Vatican and by them, Germany.

In conclusion Serbia were always trading goods between great powers :US, Germany, France, UK, Russia, Ottomans.

[jimbodogg]

Did anyone notice that the US ended the Bosnian war only when the Bosnians started winning?

I was glad when Arkan the Tiger was killed.

what a tradgedy for serbs when the croats rolled back their offensive, and those thousands of serb civilians became refugees.

were not all the bridges around Belgrad destroyed?

Sarejevo was hated for its modernity, pluralism, and harmony.

Shame on the world for playing their Olympic games there, and then doing nothing as it got trashed. Shame on the UN for letting the slaughter of srebinica happen.

(the UN guy, when asked for air support, said call me back in the morning. The UN said to the Bosnians, we will protect you, but you must give up your guns. and then they wouldn't give the guns back.)

How ironic that the Serbs, fighters of Nazis, would become fascists themselves. that is what great evil can do.

[gisse]

Did anyone notice that the US ended the Bosnian war only when the Bosnians started winning?

I was glad when Arkan the Tiger was killed.

what a tradgedy for serbs when the croats rolled back their offensive, and those thousands of serb civilians became refugees.

were not all the bridges around Belgrad destroyed?

Sarejevo was hated for its modernity, pluralism, and harmony.

Shame on the world for playing their Olympic games there, and then doing nothing as it got trashed. Shame on the UN for letting the slaughter of srebinica happen.

(the UN guy, when asked for air support, said call me back in the morning. The UN said to the Bosnians, we will protect you, but you must give up your guns. and then they wouldn't give the guns back.)

How ironic that the Serbs, fighters of Nazis, would become fascists themselves. that is what great evil can do.


I see that you watch lot of CNN.

Bosnian Muslimans newer started wining in that war. Milosevich placed Bosnian Serbs on place and told them to sign treaty. Bosnian Muslimans had full air support of US air force.


Croats rolled offensive with support of US instructors which was also in Georgia.

In Sarajevo if i am not mistaking was around 130 000 Serbs before war and now around 13 000.

Srebrenica was nice TV show for rest of world. Like usual, they sad part of truth which is good for them but not all. Why they didn't noticed that for almost 2 years Serbian villages around Srebrenica was terrorized from Musliman forces from Srebrenica?

We still fight against Nazi, they only got new form in US and NATO.

[mustavaris]

Croats rolled offensive with support of US instructors which was also in Georgia.
.

Yes, there are many similarities between the Operation Oluja and this year´s failed effort..

But well, Russian wars are not fought by ragtag militia.

[spirit]

only difference is that Russia intervened and stopped Georgia and Serbia didn't stop Croatia...

[jimbodogg]

Bosnian 5th army became powerful and was pushing Serbs back towards Sarejevo. Only then did US take out the Serb guns around the city and thereby stop the war.

Only answer i can think of is because the west's fear of moslims, and didn't mind standing by while they were being slaughtered. Belgrade wasn't bombed until Kosovo war.

[jimbodogg]

by the way, need some extra $$$? click link!

http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/index.cfm?page=Mladic

[gisse]

by the way, need some extra $$$? click link!

http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/index.cfm?page=Mladic



The individual listed above was indicted by the United Nations War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia for the murders and rapes of thousands of innocent civilians in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina between April 1992 and July 1995.

He was also indicted for genocide and numerous counts of crimes against humanity, including hostage-taking of peacekeepers, destruction of sacred places, torture of captured civilians, and wanton destruction of private property.

A reward may also be paid for information leading to the transfer to, or conviction by, the International Criminal Tribunal of an indicted war criminal.

In addition to the reward of up to $5 million, informants may be eligible for protection of their identities and relocation for their families.


He is stud :D

That same thing you can write under photo of any US president :D

[Relikt]

Bosnian 5th army became powerful and was pushing Serbs back towards Sarejevo. Only then did US take out the Serb guns around the city and thereby stop the war.

Only answer i can think of is because the west's fear of moslims, and didn't mind standing by while they were being slaughtered. Belgrade wasn't bombed until Kosovo war.
Why would Belgrade be bombed? Serbia wasnt official in Bosnian war. If we were 5th army would be wiped out without problem.
Why USA wanted end of that war in 1995? Because it wanst usefull to them any more. Bosnians and Serbs could made peace much earlier but then USA will not became saver of Balkan.

[jimbodogg]

So Nelgrade was bombed anyhow, a few years too late.

I applaud Arkan's death. Good Work, whomever did this deed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDeljko_Ra%C5%BEnatovi%C4%87

[gisse]

So Nelgrade was bombed anyhow, a few years too late.

I applaud Arkan's death. Good Work, whomever did this deed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDeljko_Ra%C5%BEnatovi%C4%87

And what new information you have here to give?Or to ask?

[spirit]

Bosnian 5th army became powerful and was pushing Serbs back towards Sarejevo. Only then did US take out the Serb guns around the city and thereby stop the war.

Only answer i can think of is because the west's fear of moslims, and didn't mind standing by while they were being slaughtered. Belgrade wasn't bombed until Kosovo war.

Get lost kid!!!
5th army... :roflmao3: its 5th corps you idiot and saying that they pushed Bosnian Serb army back towards Sarajevo is like saying that German army won WWII ;)

[DeepEyes]

Just ignore him. We have seen enough people like him here on IranDefnce. Report him to the moderators, he post off-topic.

[AlbanianMario]

I think you guys should go and check the 5vids posted below and see the true story of jow the serbian military made a fool out of the NATO forces and how they tricked them..i think the serds had a great strategy on defending themselfs when it came to nato airstrikes on their military..

Youtube..
Lessons of Kosovo #1 of 5: Operation Allied Force
Lessons of Kosovo #2 of 5: A Limited War
Lessons of Kosovo #3 of 5: Stop Ethnic Cleansing
Lessons of Kosovo #4 of 5: Attack the Serb Military
Lessons of Kosovo #5 of 5: Aftermath

[DeepEyes]

It's USA Political propaganda film.
It's NOT nato AirForce documentary, although they called it that way.
One more poor effort to justify agression against Yugoslavia.

They forbid posting comments. Why?

1. There was no refugees before war, (before 24. march. 1999.)
Note that they explained that they start to bomob Yugoslavia to allow returning of refugees forom neibhour countries, wich before war didn't exist. Paradox.


2. Albanians were no unarmed. They were well equiped and organised. Since 1997. when they started to provocate(kill) Yugoslav police officers. There are dozens of documentaries, where Albanian leaders talk how they attacked and kill Yugoslav Police officers.

Interesting that NATO pilots can't make difference between Albanian refuge column with RED tractors and Yugoslav army green Tanks.

[Apolonia2, his request..]

I think you guys should go and check the 5vids posted below and see the true story of jow the serbian military made a fool out of the NATO forces and how they tricked them..i think the serds had a great strategy on defending themselfs when it came to nato airstrikes on their military..

Youtube..
Lessons of Kosovo #1 of 5: Operation Allied Force
Lessons of Kosovo #2 of 5: A Limited War
Lessons of Kosovo #3 of 5: Stop Ethnic Cleansing
Lessons of Kosovo #4 of 5: Attack the Serb Military
Lessons of Kosovo #5 of 5: Aftermath

Where are you from?

[AlbanianMario]

Where are you from?

im from tirana y do u ask?

[Apolonia2, his request..]

im from tirana y do u ask?

Just wanted to know.

Fier here.

[Stena]

Vidim da se niko nije setio... Vrlo mi je zao zbog toga...
Bio sam danas na mitingu na trgu u Beogradu i bilo je svega nekoliko hiljada ljudi, i to
vise od pola ili stranaca ili iz dijaspore, bilo je visokih ruskih, bugarskih zvanicnika i onaj Amerkianac Clark, al onaj dobar Clark, bio je neki istaknuti amer, a od Rusa je najupecatljiviji bio predsednik pokreta "Mlada Rusija"...
Od domacih bili su nestranacki,umetnici,borci, profesori, Bora, Ivana Zigon, i td...
Poenta je u tome, da to niti je bilo medijski propraceno, niti najavljeno, 100% ignorisano... jos jedna bruka u nizu ove nase prenapacene zemlje :(:(:(

24.03.1999, exactly 10 years before, begun NATO aggression on my country, aggression which were against UN security council and violating ALL international documents !
They have killed between 2400 and 2700 Serb civilians and 271 armed Serbs- 249 soldiers and 22 policeman, till aggression ended, at 10.06.1999 !
Aggression didn't lasted 3 days, like NATO generals predicted ....
Serbian army won, but Serbian state still fighting . . .
First day NATO air forces counted 464 aircraft's and after 70 days of aggression, that number raised at 1040 .... US itself engage 748 planes ! ! !
Of all attacks, attacks on military targets numerate 60 % .
40% of all attacks where on civilian targets ...
Here is a table of all civilian objects that were attacked, but it is on Serbian, from army documents . . .

RIP

[Stena]

1026 civilian objects attacked by NATO in 1991 strikes, 907 heavily damaged, 119 totally destroyed

[Stena]

For 78 days of aggression NATO aviation executed 26095 flights- - - battle aviation 18168 (or 69.60%) and assistance aviation 7927 (30.40%).
Average day rush of NATO planes where 334 flights daily - - - battle jets 232, assistance planes 101 . . .
From 18168 battle aviation flights, US jets performed 12854 (or 70.75%), and other 12 NATO countries performed rest of it 5314 (29.25%)
NATO fired on Serbian territory around 419000 missiles different kinds (of total mass 22000 ton)
NATO fired around 350000 cluster bombs ( Serbian designation for concrete type is БЛУ-91,92,97 and also 108Б ) around 49000 pieces (grenades) of depleted uranium ammunition , so you can easily say that aggression was also kind a nuclear ...
NATO bombs killed 88 kids.
Youngest victims where unidentified Albanian baby, and also 11 months old Serbian baby girl, which was killed at 11 April in Serbian village Merdare...
( Who wants, can also count 3 unborn babies........... )
RIP

[gisse]

Poginulima neka je vecna slava

[SniperVRS]

Slava poginulima.

[anti_nato]

Кровь за кровь!

Смерть за смерть!