India clears move to buy 126 fighter jets

[aviator]

NEW DELHI, JUN 29 (PTI)

India today cleared the floating of its biggest ever global tender for purchasing 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft in a defence deal that could run up to a staggering Rs 42,000 crore (approximately US $10 billion).

Ending almost six years of suspense since the Request for Information was circulated in 2001 among international manufacturers, an official announcement said the "process for procurement of the fighters had been cleared".

The Request for Proposals (RFP) will be issued by the first week of August, Defence Ministry spokesman Sithansu Kar said.

Under the deal, India will acquire 18 fighters in a flyaway condition and 118 will be manufactured under licence in the country.

In a break from existing norms, the chosen manufacturer will have to spend 50 per cent as direct offsets on the aircraft or defence manufacturing industry in India, the official announcement said. Under current rules, there is a 30 per cent offset clause in all defence deals worth over Rs 300 crore.

Though the official announcement did not not specify any timeframe for the supply and manufacture of the fighters, top Defence Ministry sources said the first of the jets were expected to be delivered within three years of the signing of the contract.

India clears move to buy 126 fighter jets (http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=484652)

[Kashif]

NEW DELHI, JUN 29 (PTI)

India today cleared the floating of its biggest ever global tender for purchasing 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft in a defence deal that could run up to a staggering Rs 42,000 crore (approximately US $10 billion).

Ending almost six years of suspense since the Request for Information was circulated in 2001 among international manufacturers, an official announcement said the "process for procurement of the fighters had been cleared".

The Request for Proposals (RFP) will be issued by the first week of August, Defence Ministry spokesman Sithansu Kar said.

Under the deal, India will acquire 18 fighters in a flyaway condition and 118 will be manufactured under licence in the country.

In a break from existing norms, the chosen manufacturer will have to spend 50 per cent as direct offsets on the aircraft or defence manufacturing industry in India, the official announcement said. Under current rules, there is a 30 per cent offset clause in all defence deals worth over Rs 300 crore.

Though the official announcement did not not specify any timeframe for the supply and manufacture of the fighters, top Defence Ministry sources said the first of the jets were expected to be delivered within three years of the signing of the contract.

India clears move to buy 126 fighter jets (http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=484652)
Which Aircraft/Aircrafts ???

[RAAWI]

any plane with one must option that is big ejection button with size of watermellon. lol

but i think they will go for beast F-35. but IAF is thinking somthing else they are considering also euorpian + american. but my opinion is f35.

regards

[aviator]

any plane with one must option that is big ejection button with size of watermellon. lol

but i think they will go for beast F-35. but IAF is thinking somthing else they are considering also euorpian + american. but my opinion is f35.

regards

This thread wasn't meant for people like you. When you don't know , don't speak and prove yourself something else. F-35 is not even in the race . F-35 hasn't even been offered to India .

[KingoftheHill]

Which Aircraft/Aircrafts ???

Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-16C/D Block 52+/60, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Saab Gripen and the Mikoyan MiG-35.

[Kashif]

Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-16C/D Block 52+/60, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Saab Gripen and the Mikoyan MiG-35.
Havent they selected yet i know that theeese all are in their hit list.

[Kashif]

This thread wasn't meant for people like you. When you don't know , don't speak and prove yourself something else. F-35 is not even in the race . F-35 hasn't even been offered to India .
If they move a proposal that they want F35 then??? It is a good idea isant it.

[aviator]

Which Aircraft/Aircrafts ???

Friday it was finalised by A k Antony RFP's will be issued now and proposal will be send and then invitation will have to be submitted by manufacture and then will be studied by IAF and then plane will be finalised . RFP's have been issued , plane has not been decided , it will be based on specification of manufacturers and how much ToT they will offer.

If they move a proposal that they want F35 then??? It is a good idea isant it.

The answer is NO. JSF F-35 has 9 participating countries and its production will start from 2009 , first those 9 countries will get those aircrafts and then if India wants it can get it in that case aircraft won't come before 2017. Also India has joined Russia in PAK FA project and they are looking for MCA so there si no point in going for such an expensive 5th gen aircraft .

[Kashif]

Friday it was finalised by A k Antony RFP's will be issued now and proposal will be send and then invitation will have to be submitted by manufacture and then will be studied by IAF and then plane will be finalised . RFP's have been issued , plane has not been decided , it will be based on specification of manufacturers and how much ToT they will offer.



The answer is NO. JSF F-35 has 9 participating countries and its production will start from 2009 , first those 9 countries will get those aircrafts and then if India wants it can get it in that case aircraft won't come before 2017. Also India has joined Russia in PAK FA project and they are looking for MCA so there si no point in going for such an expensive 5th gen aircraft .
Dont you thaink that if there are 10 then India can get them too atleast on the 10th place.India have a lot of money they can spent on them.And if India can get AESA then why cant they get the JSF

[RAAWI]

This thread wasn't meant for people like you. When you don't know , don't speak and prove yourself something else. F-35 is not even in the race . F-35 hasn't even been offered to India .

Sorry it was my typo or i was not concentrating well i want to type mig 35 not f-35.

and please dont be so personal i will not ask any one while posting and specially you. answer it or ignore it dont comment personnaly, I know you know more than me or every meber here is well informed specially in forces than me iam here to learn.

regards

[aviator]

Dont you thaink that if there are 10 then India can get them too atleast on the 10th place.India have a lot of money they can spent on them.And if India can get AESA then why cant they get the JSF

NO. Even if India joins so late as 10th member still India would be last one to get JSF and US is not really an reliable partner in these terms, India wont get ToT. I guess our leaders must have learnt from British and Australian experiences with American equipment. Britain almost pulled out of the JSF project, because the US was not ready to let Britain maintain full operational control over the JSF. The Aussies are $6 billion poorer, because they bought 24 (yes, only twenty four) Super Hornets from the US. And that was an off-the-shelf purchase. Zero ToT. And these countries are America's most allied allies. The Su-30MKIs came far cheaper. With deep ToT.

The US is unreliable as far as India is concerned.They even provide downgraded systems to their bosom buddies like the UK or Australia .And thats the main issue here.Many times has the US dumped the Indians to their fate.Its the ingenuity of the Indians and the help from the Russians that they have overcome most of them and will continue to do so.

If India goes for F-35 we wont get ToT and who knows after 20yrs how India's reln with US may be ,and we may face situation of F-14 with Iran. Its better for India to go with Russia in PAK FA project .Learn and work together.

Sorry it was my typo or i was not concentrating well i want to type mig 35 not f-35.

and please dont be so personal i will not ask any one while posting and specially you. answer it or ignore it dont comment personnaly, I know you know more than me or every meber here is well informed specially in forces than me iam here to learn.

With your very first line you tried to flame the topic and thats what prompted me to say that either speak something meaningful or don't speak.

[Maverick]

NO. Even if India joins so late as 10th member still India would be last one to get JSF and US is not really an reliable partner in these terms, India wont get ToT. I guess our leaders must have learnt from British and Australian experiences with American equipment. Britain almost pulled out of the JSF project, because the US was not ready to let Britain maintain full operational control over the JSF. The Aussies are $6 billion poorer, because they bought 24 (yes, only twenty four) Super Hornets from the US. And that was an off-the-shelf purchase. Zero ToT. And these countries are America's most allied allies. The Su-30MKIs came far cheaper. With deep ToT.

The US is unreliable as far as India is concerned.They even provide downgraded systems to their bosom buddies like the UK or Australia .And thats the main issue here.Many times has the US dumped the Indians to their fate.Its the ingenuity of the Indians and the help from the Russians that they have overcome most of them and will continue to do so.

If India goes for F-35 we wont get ToT and who knows after 20yrs how India's reln with US may be ,and we may face situation of F-14 with Iran. Its better for India to go with Russia in PAK FA project .Learn and work together.

True. You know even after all the discussions and threats of pullouts and arm wringing and negotiations I still doubt that Britain will be provided full operational control especially the source code and stealth technology secrets.

I also believe that India will probably go for the Mig-35 as they will be cheaper (in terms of unit cost, ToT, ammunition, spares and most importantly training) as Indian pilots are used to the Russian Jets, migration to F-16 (Block 60 or 70) or F/A-18 (Super Hornets) will probably be very cost ineffective in terms of training and clocking. Besides that will probably also open the door for possible future sale of Russian jets to Pakistan (directly or indirectly) as Russia will require exports to new countries to offset potential loss of sales to India.

All in all I believe India, Pakistan, China, Iran and Russia need to set all their conflicts and problems aside, solve them with future prosperity, harmony, development and trust and unite to emerge stronger then the EU and the US combined not only financially and technologically but militarily as well(in a few decades!).

[not-now]

mig-35 is the best choice excellent plane and russians are reliable partners.

All in all I believe India, Pakistan, China, Iran and Russia need to set all their conflicts and problems aside, solve them with future prosperity, harmony, development and trust and unite to emerge stronger then the EU and the US combined not only financially and technologically but militarily as well(in a few decades!).

finally the best post i have seen on the india/pakistan forums my family is split between india and pak so i really don't wanna see em fight or with anyone else for that matter:)

[aviator]

India to shop for more combat aircraft (http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=cef0b97b-f25c-4ce2-a5be-20aa16ccafa6)

India is likely to substantially increase its demand for multi-role combat aircraft (MRCAs) from 126 to 180-190, but the higher numbers would be for the Navy.

The Government had earlier wanted the MRCAs for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The requests are to be issued to France's Rafale, the US' F-16 and F/A 18, Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, senior IAF officials confirmed.

This increase would significantly boost the cost of the deal to around $10 billion or even more, Defence Ministry sources said.

[Vladimir80]

India to shop for more combat aircraft (http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=cef0b97b-f25c-4ce2-a5be-20aa16ccafa6)

India is likely to substantially increase its demand for multi-role combat aircraft (MRCAs) from 126 to 180-190, but the higher numbers would be for the Navy.

The Government had earlier wanted the MRCAs for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The requests are to be issued to France's Rafale, the US' F-16 and F/A 18, Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, senior IAF officials confirmed.

This increase would significantly boost the cost of the deal to around $10 billion or even more, Defence Ministry sources said.

Man..... I am waiting for news of who wins, not a six month old press release of what we already know! :frown3:

[ironbar]

This thread wasn't meant for people like you. When you don't know , don't speak and prove yourself something else. F-35 is not even in the race . F-35 hasn't even been offered to India .

read again clown the f-35 is being offered

[Vladimir80]

read again clown the f-35 is being offered

Who is you calling a clown... he said it was typo and meant to type Mig-35... not F-35. :frown3:

[ironbar]

Who is you calling a clown... he said it was typo and meant to type Mig-35... not F-35. :frown3:

either way you are wrong both f-35 and mid 35 is being offered:roflmao3:

[aviator]

read again clown the f-35 is being offered

The only thing you seem to be good at is Ad-hominem attacks not at English. I guess this thread is about MRCA and I said "F-35 is not in race for MRCA" . The report about F-35 for India says that if India goes for F-16 then F-35 may be offered later.

Moreover check out when report about F35 offer came , did it came before I made that statement or later.

US wants India's fighter jet order, dangles F-35 carrot (http://www.ibnlive.com/news/us-wants-indias-fighter-jet-order-dangles-f35-carrot/45214-3.html)

New Delhi: Unmatched stealth and super cruise - the Indian Air Force got a glimpse of the future of air combat in an American presentation on its next-generation fighter, the F-35, on Tuesday.

There were indications that the US is willing to share this new weapon with India, but it's clearly a carrot for giving the older F-16 a leg up in the Indian tender for 126 fighter aircraft.

Says Lockheed Martin's Royce Caplinger, "Beyond the RFP that's on the horizon, the F-35 too could play a role, sometime in the future."

[apple_fritta]

I agree with aviator: don't trust US unles they're giving you complete ToT. Anyways as a Pakistni i am supposed to be encouraging india to go with USA :P But seriously: stuff USA.

[Vinay]

I agree with aviator: don't trust US unles they're giving you complete ToT. Anyways as a Pakistni i am supposed to be encouraging india to go with USA :P But seriously: stuff USA.


Open secret that the US is not reliable.

I think India will be shooting itself in the foot if it goes with the USA. It is clear with their talking, IF you do this, you get that.
that is not a partnership. that is a master slave relation.

The Russians will provide us with cheaper and better planes than the junk we will get from the US.

They have superb tech, example Su MKI even if it is fitted out with Israeli avionics.


And Apple dont have to be so Anyways as a Pakistni i am supposed to be encouraging india to go with USA .

[Maverick]

Open secret that the US is not reliable.

I think India will be shooting itself in the foot if it goes with the USA. It is clear with their talking, IF you do this, you get that.
that is not a partnership. that is a master slave relation.

The Russians will provide us with cheaper and better planes than the junk we will get from the US.

They have superb tech, example Su MKI even if it is fitted out with Israeli avionics.


And Apple dont have to be so .

Hey Vinay how about applying concrete measures to our friendship? Buy 350 JF-17's from us for $10 Billion :)

This way the regions money will stay in the region ;)

[ironbar]

why would india want a third generation plane when they can buy a 5th generation plane?

[Maverick]

why would india want a third generation plane when they can buy a 5th generation plane?

Currently there is only 1 5th generation Air Craft, the US F-22 Raptor, which is not for sale! So where is India going to buy that 5th Generation Air Craft today? Pretty dumb, wasn't your reasoning? And while we are on the subject let me, please, also clarify, before you insult yourself some more, that India will acquire PAK-FA and/or Mig 1.44 (And possibly some MCA) when they are inducted but the current requisition program is only a fill gap measure to make sure IAF does not suffer from Air Craft shortage because of the large fleet of Mig-21's that are about to retire and the future of LCA not so certain!

Now that brings us back to the JF-17, which you so understandingly consider a 3rd Generation Air Craft, please either correct your knowledge or trust to learn other learned people, especially experts who all agree that the current JF-17's are 4th Generation at the least, who knows with some modifications such as TVC, AESA, Super Cruise and possibly radar absorbing material to make it stealthier in the future this Air Craft could well become a 4.5th generation Jet!

And lastly please also understand that my post was posted in a light humorous mood and was not to be taken for word! Simply it was just a joke :)

[Vladimir80]

Now that brings us back to the JF-17, which you so understandingly consider a 3rd Generation Air Craft, please either correct your knowledge or trust to learn other learned people, especially experts who all agree that the current JF-17's are 4th Generation at the least, who knows with some modifications such as TVC, AESA, Super Cruise and possibly radar absorbing material to make it stealthier in the future this Air Craft could well become a 4.5th generation Jet!

And lastly please also understand that my post was posted in a light humorous mood and was not to be taken for word! Simply it was just a joke :)


Have you forgotten to look at the price... stop making jokes and get serious.

[Maverick]

Have you forgotten to look at the price... stop making jokes and get serious.

On the serious side, which price are you referring to?

[Vladimir80]

On the serious side, which price are you referring to?

The price of JF-17 is 15 million dollars

[Maverick]

The price of JF-17 is 15 million dollars

Estimated cost of the Aircraft at the moment is close to $20 Million flyaway. With armaments, training, spares etc the cost will likely rise to $28-$30 million each :)

[aviator]

why would india want a third generation plane when they can buy a 5th generation plane?

Currently there is only 1 5th generation Air Craft, the US F-22 Raptor, which is not for sale! So where is India going to buy that 5th Generation Air Craft today? Pretty dumb, wasn't your reasoning?

And lastly please also understand that my post was posted in a light humorous mood and was not to be taken for word! Simply it was just a joke :)

Seems to me he was talking about F-35 that was informally offered by Lockheed official some dys back that F-35 may be sold to India if India goes for F-16.

[Vladimir80]

Estimated cost of the Aircraft at the moment is close to $20 Million flyaway. With armaments, training, spares etc the cost will likely rise to $28-$30 million each :)


The project of 300 aircraft has a unit cost of 15-20 million. If PAF want's the 500 it would be reduced even further. No fighter in this price range is going to give you 4.5 gen capabilties. It's radar is lame, the engine is underpowered, the avionics are OTS, and the talk about AESA has honey combs as big as my fist making it less capable than PESA.

[Maverick]

Seems to me he was talking about F-35 that was informally offered by Lockheed official some dys back that F-35 may be sold to India if India goes for F-16.

Yes my friend but I guess when the tone changed from humor to logic we should have dropped the JF-17 altogether albeit for another reason: Discussion on JF-17 itself :)

Anyway in that time frame we were talking about Air Craft that are under production and hence no mention of the F-35, even though the supposed sale depends on India spending $10 Billion or more on F-16's first (which is a major catch in itself). So how far down the track the USA would actually be willing to sell the F-35's to india (if like ever) would atleast be 15 years from today. So we are back to square one.....or the JF-17 ;)

Oh and did I mention if India ever decides to actually go for US A/C it will open the doors for Russia to sell to Pakistan directly......a man's gotta eat right; only in this case it is the country that does have to make sales!

[Maverick]

The project of 300 aircraft has a unit cost of 15-20 million. If PAF want's the 500 it would be reduced even further.

The cost of the Project and the A/C covering the cost of the project is close to $20 Million each. When the A/C is sold to another country the cost price changes to accommodate profit plus the A/C is usually supplied with armaments, avionics, spares, training etc which adds up to a hefty upgrade in base cost. Take the F-16's for example that Pakistan is purchasing, the cost is as follows:

1) 36 New F-16's: $3 Billion
2) Armaments/Weapons - $650 Million
3) 60 MLU Kits - $1.3 Billion
4) F-16 A/B Engine Modification - $150 Million

In total $5.1 Billion! So if we only take Item 1 & 2 the cost comes to $3.65 Bn which implies each F-16 to be worth $100 Million or more. In reality the base cost of the Air Craft is close to $45 Million but it is the avionics, armaments, spares, training etc that push the price up to $100 Million a pop!



No fighter in this price range is going to give you 4.5 gen capabilties. It's radar is lame, the engine is underpowered, the avionics are OTS, and the talk about AESA has honey combs as big as my fist making it less capable than PESA.

Let me ask you some questions:

1) How are the Italian FIAR Grifo-S7 and the yet undeclared Chinese Radars lame?
2) How is the upgraded RD-33 (named RD-93 for JF-17's) underpowered for this light weight Jet?
3) How are OTS avionics any weaker then Specific made to order avionics as the Jet was designed with the OTS avionics?
4) How is AESA talk has 'honey combs' as big as your fist (whatever the hell that means)?

[ironbar]

Currently there is only 1 5th generation Air Craft, the US F-22 Raptor, which is not for sale! So where is India going to buy that 5th Generation Air Craft today? Pretty dumb, wasn't your reasoning? And while we are on the subject let me, please, also clarify, before you insult yourself some more, that India will acquire PAK-FA and/or Mig 1.44 (And possibly some MCA) when they are inducted but the current requisition program is only a fill gap measure to make sure IAF does not suffer from Air Craft shortage because of the large fleet of Mig-21's that are about to retire and the future of LCA not so certain!

Now that brings us back to the JF-17, which you so understandingly consider a 3rd Generation Air Craft, please either correct your knowledge or trust to learn other learned people, especially experts who all agree that the current JF-17's are 4th Generation at the least, who knows with some modifications such as TVC, AESA, Super Cruise and possibly radar absorbing material to make it stealthier in the future this Air Craft could well become a 4.5th generation Jet!

And lastly please also understand that my post was posted in a light humorous mood and was not to be taken for word! Simply it was just a joke :)

india is being offered the f-35 with no strings attached
the f-35 is 5th generation
the jf-17 is an over glorified 3th generation plane already obsolete

[Vladimir80]

The cost of the Project and the A/C covering the cost of the project is close to $20 Million each. When the A/C is sold to another country the cost price changes to accommodate profit plus the A/C is usually supplied with armaments, avionics, spares, training etc which adds up to a hefty upgrade in base cost. Take the F-16's for example that Pakistan is purchasing, the cost is as follows:

1) 36 New F-16's: $3 Billion
2) Armaments/Weapons - $650 Million
3) 60 MLU Kits - $1.3 Billion
4) F-16 A/B Engine Modification - $150 Million


In total $5.1 Billion! So if we only take Item 1 & 2 the cost comes to $3.65 Bn which implies each F-16 to be worth $100 Million or more. In reality the base cost of the Air Craft is close to $45 Million but it is the avionics, armaments, spares, training etc that push the price up to $100 Million a pop!


Only a fool would pay 100 million for 15 year old F-16s. Your example isn't an accurate measure for pricing aircraft. You don't count weapons, engine modifications, and MLU kits when talking about a NEW aircraft. The JF-17 is straight off the production line. Your F-16 shipment is already 15 years old. Counting weapons price certainly isn't accurate. The flyaway cost of the base JF-17 is 15 million, if you get some of the upgrades it is 20 million.



Let me ask you some questions:

1) How are the Italian FIAR Grifo-S7 and the yet undeclared Chinese Radars lame?
2) How is the upgraded RD-33 (named RD-93 for JF-17's) underpowered for this light weight Jet?
3) How are OTS avionics any weaker then Specific made to order avionics as the Jet was designed with the OTS avionics?
4) How is AESA talk has 'honey combs' as big as your fist (whatever the hell that means)?

1) Who says you are getting Grifo radars? Even if you did they are inferior to the Russian Super Komar option. PAF's aircraft will have Chinese avionics and everyone knows they suck.
2) The RD-93 was designed to be used in tandem pairs for the Mig-29. JF-17 only has one... you do the math.
3) OTS avionics are not designed especially for the aircraft. It looks like the first 50 for PAF will have Chinese avionics and everyone knows they suck.
4) The honey combs of an electronically scanned radar determine the quality of that radar, the smaller the combs the more channels you get the better your radar is. The mock up I seen to go on FC-1 has HUGE honey combs which makes that radar less capable than PESA.

[Maverick]

india is being offered the f-35 with no strings attached
the f-35 is 5th generation

:roflmao3::roflmao3:



the jf-17 is an over glorified 3th generation plane already obsolete

:roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3:

Hilarious mate, you and your posts....at last some one who makes the sane ones laugh!

[Maverick]

Only a fool would pay 100 million for 15 year old F-16s. Your example isn't an accurate measure for pricing aircraft. You don't count weapons, engine modifications, and MLU kits when talking about a NEW aircraft. The JF-17 is straight off the production line. Your F-16 shipment is already 15 years old. Counting weapons price certainly isn't accurate. The flyaway cost of the base JF-17 is 15 million, if you get some of the upgrades it is 20 million.

That is why I made it so pretty clear that I was referring to the 36 New F-16's which are Block 50/52+ (they haven't even started building these yet and yet you claim they are 15 year old). Why don't you ever pay attention?

And the dumbness continues with the assessment and comparison of base cost with the cost of the Air Craft with accessories! Yes mate you do count armaments, spares, modifications, training etc to figure the end cost you will have to pay per air craft. The base cost of $45 Million looks great but the cost that you will have to pay is close to $100 million which doesn't paint a very pretty picture (MLU kits were not added, please read the post again, carefully! And I am getting tired of requesting that you read posts carefully mate!). Those F-16's without training, spares, armaments etc would be useless and if you can't get that through your head then I cant explain any more mate!

The cost of our JF-17 was 15 million, it was even less then that (suggested at $10 Million a piece) but most of the updated web pages suggest the base cost has increased to $20 million each! In any case the cost is not disputed because India is not going to buy it, ever. Besides if we do sell it to other countries they will end up paying a lot more then our cost! You can check it out at wiki as well. That was the idea behind my posts.



1) Who says you are getting Grifo radars? Even if you did they are inferior to the Russian Super Komar option. PAF's aircraft will have Chinese avionics and everyone knows they suck.
2) The RD-93 was designed to be used in tandem pairs for the Mig-29. JF-17 only has one... you do the math.
3) OTS avionics are not designed especially for the aircraft. It looks like the first 50 for PAF will have Chinese avionics and everyone knows they suck.
4) The honey combs of an electronically scanned radar determine the quality of that radar, the smaller the combs the more channels you get the better your radar is. The mock up I seen to go on FC-1 has HUGE honey combs which makes that radar less capable than PESA.

1) Most of the pages on JF-17 suggest the Italian FIAR Grifo-S7 will be fitted on the Pakistani versions (later ones ofcourse). We all know they are not top of the line but they hold their own advantages over others. Besides there are rumors all over the internet about AESA radar upgrades on J-10's for Pakistan, who knows if feasible they will be installed on JF-17's as well :)
2) Corrections my friend RD-33's were designed for Mig-29's and still carried on the same Air Craft. RD-93 was specifically designed for the JF-17 which is a more powerful engine, also be advised that the JF-17 is much lighter then the Mig-29. The Mig-29 weights 11,000 Kg's where as the JF-17 weights 6,450 Kg's. Hope that helps :)
3) My friend please read my posts carefully! Where did I ever suggest that OTS avionics were designed for this Air Craft? On the contrary I suggested that the JF-17's was designed around OTS avionics! Also please answer the question that I asked: How are OTS avionics any weaker then Specific made to order avionics as the Jet was designed with the OTS avionics?
4) Radar can be upgraded in the future and it will most definitely be upgraded. And which current radar on the JF-17 are you even talking about?

On an ending note: Everyone also know's Russian avionics suck even more and that is why India has started building her own avionics as well as buying them from Europe and Israel! MKI is the biggest example, such a beast of an Air Craft but with Avionics from Israel, India and Europe! What a shame!

[Jewish-bob]

Which Aircraft/Aircrafts ???

Tandouri type like the one in my signature!

[ironbar]

:roflmao3::roflmao3:





:roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3:

Hilarious mate, you and your posts....at last some one who makes the sane ones laugh!

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2435.html
laugh at that

[Vladimir80]

That is why I made it so pretty clear that I was referring to the 36 New F-16's which are Block 50/52+ (they haven't even started building these yet and yet you claim they are 15 year old). Why don't you ever pay attention?

The current delievery of 26 F-16s are from the Peace Gate IV deal from 1989 that never went through.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200607/18/eng20060718_284088.html

And the dumbness continues with the assessment and comparison of base cost with the cost of the Air Craft with accessories! Yes mate you do count armaments, spares, modifications, training etc to figure the end cost you will have to pay per air craft. The base cost of $45 Million looks great but the cost that you will have to pay is close to $100 million which doesn't paint a very pretty picture (MLU kits were not added, please read the post again, carefully! And I am getting tired of requesting that you read posts carefully mate!). Those F-16's without training, spares, armaments etc would be useless and if you can't get that through your head then I cant explain any more mate!

You can't compare the two because they are mixing old and new airframes along with the Mid Life upgrades for your other aircrafts. It is like comparing apples and oranges with new JF-17s.


The cost of our JF-17 was 15 million, it was even less then that (suggested at $10 Million a piece) but most of the updated web pages suggest the base cost has increased to $20 million each!

This says 15 million...

http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/jf17.html


In any case the cost is not disputed because India is not going to buy it, ever. Besides if we do sell it to other countries they will end up paying a lot more then our cost! You can check it out at wiki as well. That was the idea behind my posts.

How do you plan on selling it when Russia doesn't want it in competition? Without us you have no engines.



1) Most of the pages on JF-17 suggest the Italian FIAR Grifo-S7 will be fitted on the Pakistani versions (later ones ofcourse). We all know they are not top of the line but they hold their own advantages over others. Besides there are rumors all over the internet about AESA radar upgrades on J-10's for Pakistan, who knows if feasible they will be installed on JF-17's as well :)

You would do much better to get Super Komar... Grifo is not even in the same tracking class.

2) Corrections my friend RD-33's were designed for Mig-29's and still carried on the same Air Craft. RD-93 was specifically designed for the JF-17 which is a more powerful engine, also be advised that the JF-17 is much lighter then the Mig-29. The Mig-29 weights 11,000 Kg's where as the JF-17 weights 6,450 Kg's. Hope that helps :)

It doesn't help... the F-16 has twice the thrust of the JF-17. It is really underpowered.


3) My friend please read my posts carefully! Where did I ever suggest that OTS avionics were designed for this Air Craft? On the contrary I suggested that the JF-17's was designed around OTS avionics! Also please answer the question that I asked: How are OTS avionics any weaker then Specific made to order avionics as the Jet was designed with the OTS avionics?

The first 50 aircraft are having Chinese avionics and we all know about that... :laugh4:

4) Radar can be upgraded in the future and it will most definitely be upgraded. And which current radar on the JF-17 are you even talking about?

We can speculate to death what JF-17 WILL be in an upgrade but I can tell you the first Chinese batch you are getting is not good.

On an ending note: Everyone also know's Russian avionics suck even more

Russia is far and above Chinese avionics... I see plenty of countries taking advantage of our upgrades. It just so happens Israel excels in it.

[Maverick]

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2435.html
laugh at that

I did.....lol.....all the way!

Come on man, don't you understand anything at all? Don't you understand what a catch is? The US company is dangling F-35's in front of you and offering you F-16's! F-35's may be offered down the track, but not before the year 2015! This is what the article says:

"The CNN-IBN news channel in India said last Thursday that Lockheed officials were urging India to acquire its F-16 fighters with the incentive of a possible deal down the road to add the F-35 Lightning II to its arsenal.

Lockheed Martin would like to win the MRCA tender for 126 multi-role aircraft issued earlier this year by India. India's current warplanes soon need to be replaced in a deal worth an estimated $10 billion.

"Beyond the (tender) that's on the horizon, the F-35 too could play a role, sometime in the future." Royce Caplinger, the managing director of Lockheed Martin Global Inc. stated on CNN-IBN. To sweeten the deal he indicated the JSF could come at the same price as the F-16. Caplinger was in India to give the military a briefing on the capabilities of the F-35."


I'm still laughing mate.......:roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3:

[Maverick]

The current delievery of 26 F-16s are from the Peace Gate IV deal from 1989 that never went through.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200607/18/eng20060718_284088.html

*sigh*

There was an option of buying 36 Block 50/52+ F-16's at a cost of $3.6 Billion (Plus older Block 15OCU with MLU Kits at a cost of $1.5 Billion). We have signed a deal to purchase 18 new ones and 18 old ones! That is beyond the point. I tried to explain what the unit cost of new F-16's is and you started blabbering about old peace gate F-16's. I will state again, please pay attention, the cost of our new F-16 Block 50/52+ is close to $100 Million each with accessories!

Sometimes I wonder if its worth the effort at all!

*sigh*



You can't compare the two because they are mixing old and new airframes along with the Mid Life upgrades for your other aircrafts. It is like comparing apples and oranges with new JF-17s.

Again, I wasn't comparing JF-17 to the F-16's, neither was I comparing Block 15 to Block 52+. I was merely trying to explain that the actual cost of the Air Craft is a lot more then its base cost no matter what the Air Craft is because you will have to pay for spares, for weapons, for customization, for training etc.



This says 15 million...

http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/jf17.html

The webpage contains old news. It also says:

"Production will start in 2005 and the first four locally-built aircraft will be handed over to the PAF in December 2006, another four will be delivered by March 2007. Full rate production is planned to start in 2007 turning out 20 aircraft per year.
Earlier news reported 16 aircraft to be delivered in 2006, if this is still true, 12 will be produced by CAC of which four will be delivered to Pakistan.
The initial production aircraft will probably feature a Chinese radar which would enable use of the Chinese BVR SD-10 missile. But Pakistan plans to put the GRIFFO radar in the initial production aircraft for evaluation and testing of the avionics with the GRIFFO."

Whereas we all know that the first 2 JF-17's were handed over in 2007 and that serial production is supposed to commence early 2008. In any case I will not dispute the cost of the Air Craft because some sites claim $10 Million others at $15 and $20 Million. For example the cost of JF-17's is $20 Million here:

$20 Million @ Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder)



How do you plan on selling it when Russia doesn't want it in competition? Without us you have no engines.

We are selling it with or without Russian Engines mate! Haven't you heard that the WS-13 may be in production before we start serving other countries?



You would do much better to get Super Komar... Grifo is not even in the same tracking class.

I believe the Air Force want Grifo because it comes with ToT plus our Pilots, technicians etc already have knowledge of the radar so its cost is minimal and we will be able to manufacture them. Pakistan is also in active negotiations (as I've read in other forums) with Selex for their AESA 750 series. It may go on the J-10's but then again, perhaps, there may be future JF-17's with AESA :)



It doesn't help... the F-16 has twice the thrust of the JF-17. It is really underpowered.

First you compared it to Mig-29, now its F-16's.....what next the F-22?

Anyway for the F-16:

Empty weight: 8,272 kg
Dry thrust: 64.9 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 105.7 kN

Alternate powerplant:
Dry thrust: 76.3 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 128.9 kN

JF-17:

Empty weight: 6,450 kg
Dry thrust: 51.3 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 81.3 kN

Please also note the production versions have RD-93B which has 10% more thrust thus pushing the RD-93B's specification to 56.4 (Dry) and 89.4 (afterburner) which isn't too bad considering the fact that the JF-17 is 1822 Kg's lighter then the F-16. So if the F-16's have 1kN for every 78kg's the JF-17's got 1kN for every 72kg which makes the JF-17's more powerful in thrust then the F-16's :)



The first 50 aircraft are having Chinese avionics and we all know about that... :laugh4:

*sigh*

Please answer the question I asked before we talk about this ok?



We can speculate to death what JF-17 WILL be in an upgrade but I can tell you the first Chinese batch you are getting is not good.

Just because it's got Chinese Avionics?



Russia is far and above Chinese avionics... I see plenty of countries taking advantage of our upgrades. It just so happens Israel excels in it.

Russia was far above China in avionics, the gap is getting smaller and smaller with the current financial state of China which is much stronger then that of Russia. Oh and thank God you guys discovered Oil other wise you would have been selling your own Air Force to India and China by now.

[Vladimir80]

*sigh*

There was an option of buying 36 Block 50/52+ F-16's at a cost of $3.6 Billion (Plus older Block 15OCU with MLU Kits at a cost of $1.5 Billion). We have signed a deal to purchase 18 new ones and 18 old ones! That is beyond the point. I tried to explain what the unit cost of new F-16's is and you started blabbering about old peace gate F-16's. I will state again, please pay attention, the cost of our new F-16 Block 50/52+ is close to $100 Million each with accessories!

Sometimes I wonder if its worth the effort at all!

*sigh*

You can sigh all you want but it is time to wake up because you are not listening...

If you get a packaged deal that includes weapons, kits, training, spares, simulators you really can't break down the price just by dividing the package deal per airframe. If F-16s cost $100 million only a fool would buy them. The flyaway cost for every nation is different as their needs are different and is not a good indicator of price. Turkey's F-16 cost is going to be much less than Pakistan as they build and have support structures for the aircraft. Weapons are always excluded when talking about unit cost.

You sigh me when you said...

1) 36 New F-16's: $3 Billion

... and now you find out that half the aircraft are ancient relics. :roflmao3:

Again, I wasn't comparing JF-17 to the F-16's, neither was I comparing Block 15 to Block 52+. I was merely trying to explain that the actual cost of the Air Craft is a lot more then its base cost no matter what the Air Craft is because you will have to pay for spares, for weapons, for customization, for training etc.

I am telling you that is not figured into unit cost... that is seperate monies.

The webpage contains old news.

$20 Million @ Wiki

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex is the ones who put these planes together and you are going to site wiki... :no1:

We are selling it with or without Russian Engines mate! Haven't you heard that the WS-13 may be in production before we start serving other countries?

If China and India can't come up with an engine what makes you think your strapped budget is going to do any better? China is already setting up an order for 500 RD-93s... Without it you will be towing them to the runway... :roflmao3:

But PLA attiudes may be evolving as a contract for 100 new RD-93 engines was signed in mid-2005, with reports indicating this will grow to 500.

Jane's Information Group

I believe the Air Force want Grifo because it comes with ToT plus our Pilots, technicians etc already have knowledge of the radar so its cost is minimal and we will be able to manufacture them. Pakistan is also in active negotiations (as I've read in other forums) with Selex for their AESA 750 series. It may go on the J-10's but then again, perhaps, there may be future JF-17's with AESA :)

You have read in other fourms... would that be PakDef? :roflmao3:

Anyway for the F-16:

Empty weight: 8,272 kg
Dry thrust: 64.9 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 105.7 kN

Alternate powerplant:
Dry thrust: 76.3 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 128.9 kN

JF-17:

Empty weight: 6,450 kg
Dry thrust: 51.3 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 81.3 kN

F-16 = 28,985 lbf thrust w/ afterburner
Empty Weight = 18,238lb

JF-17 = 18,277 lbf thrust w/ afterburner
Empty Weight = 14,220lb

-------------------------------------------------------

The JF-17 is vastly underpowered in thrust to weight... especially if you add any stores to it.

*sigh*

Please answer the question I asked before we talk about this ok?

Sigh... Chinese avionics suck. They turn to Russia for everything...

The PLAAF's principal local fighter is the Shenyang F-8II fighter. There are estimated to be around 150 F-8IIs, along with earlier F-8Is. The PLANAF is estimated to have around 40 F-8Is and F-8IIs as well as around 20 Xian JH-7 strike aircraft. The latest models of the F-8II have been upgraded with Russian technology, including the addition of a Russian engine and avionics systems.

Jane's Information Group

Just because it's got Chinese Avionics?

Uh, yeah... when you get Chinese avionics you get poor radar and electronics. PLAAF has been turning to Russia for everything and it will be for quite some time.

Russia was far above China in avionics, the gap is getting smaller and smaller with the current financial state of China which is much stronger then that of Russia. Oh and thank God you guys discovered Oil other wise you would have been selling your own Air Force to India and China by now.

Pakistan
GDP = $480 billion
per capita = $3,004

Russian Federation
GDP = $1.8 trillion
per capita = $12,200

Russian oil is only $130 billion of a 1.8 trillion economy and fuels the state budget. It is nice hardly paying any taxes... jealous?

[Maverick]

You can sigh all you want but it is time to wake up because you are not listening...

If you get a packaged deal that includes weapons, kits, training, spares, simulators you really can't break down the price just by dividing the package deal per airframe. If F-16s cost $100 million only a fool would buy them. The flyaway cost for every nation is different as their needs are different and is not a good indicator of price. Turkey's F-16 cost is going to be much less than Pakistan as they build and have support structures for the aircraft. Weapons are always excluded when talking about unit cost.

You are still looking at it from a very incorrect perspective in relation to our discussion. None of what you said up there is incorrect or disputed, but it is not what we were discussing.

In reality please observe the following 3 points and then perhaps it will be easier to communicate:

1) India is never going to buy JF-17's.
2) Pakistan does not manufacture F-16's and hence will have to pay the cost as set by the US.
3) If, for argument's sake, India or any other country ever decides to purchase the JF-17, they may not be given the license to manufacture them and hence will have to purchase the Jets at the cost set by Pakistan/China.

Now taking into consideration the 3 points above we can safely conclude that the unit cost of the Jet would increase many fold when we add accessories. For your comfort lets just speak of the base cost of the F-16's for example which stand at $45 Million a piece (I believe). So 36 Brand new ones would cost us like $1.6 Billion correct? But the package cost of these F-16's is over $3.6 Billion which includes:

36 New Block 52+ F-16's ($3 Billion) with:

7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM
1 Unit Level Trainer

Plus Armaments ($650 Million):

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
12 AMRAAM training missiles – these have seeker warheads but lack engines
200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
240 LAU-129/A Launchers – these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.
500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
1,600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs
700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse

So the cost of the Package for NEW 36 F-16 Block 52+ Alone stands at $3.65 Billion. And please, for the love of God, note this time that I have not mentioned the older F-16's which cost $1.45 Billion with the MLU's, I am not counting them here although Pakistan is getting 18 new and 18 old F-16's I am only discussing the 36 new F-16's that were proposed initially. Please read the above again, 2-3 times, carefully before you post again.



You sigh me when you said...



... and now you find out that half the aircraft are ancient relics. :roflmao3:

Now that I have cleared it for the 3rd time, how does that make you feel? Ashamed? Feeling stupid? or just plain Russian????



I am telling you that is not figured into unit cost... that is seperate monies.

Ok. The end user still has to pay for the whole package, agreed? I mean would these F-16's be any good without, say for example, Missiles? I tried to simplify things by suggesting their end cost instead of deliberating on their base unit cost which cannot even fly (as they probably come with an empty tank!)



The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex is the ones who put these planes together and you are going to site wiki... :no1:

LOL! Yes PAC WILL put these together, so far their production has not commenced! And just so you know PAC does not keep the website, neither does it update it regularly, that is the job of an outsourced company which will only update the page once informed or ordered to do so by PAC.



If China and India can't come up with an engine what makes you think your strapped budget is going to do any better? China is already setting up an order for 500 RD-93s... Without it you will be towing them to the runway... :roflmao3:

I think the order was placed for 100 RD-93 engines with a probability of the order going as high as 1000 or until WS-13 is in serial production (after induction post performance satisfaction).

Oh and perhaps you are not aware, there are other countries that make Air Craft engines! Personally I wonder why Pakistan/China couldn't just go to a German/French company instead for the engines, I mean we would have paid a bit more but we would have bought something real, not some old ****!

I also wonder what you will do when the Indian order goes to Boeing or Lockheed Martin, you guys cannot afford to make newer Air Craft for yourself you are so lame, would you start selling off your Air Force and Navy to feed yourselves if Pakistan and China too stop buying from you?



You have read in other fourms... would that be PakDef? :roflmao3:

Yes, amongst others :)



F-16 = 28,985 lbf thrust w/ afterburner
Empty Weight = 18,238lb

JF-17 = 18,277 lbf thrust w/ afterburner
Empty Weight = 14,220lb

-------------------------------------------------------

The JF-17 is vastly underpowered in thrust to weight... especially if you add any stores to it.

There are 3 points missing in your post:

1) RD-93B is supposedly 10% more powerful then the engine specification you gave above. You failed to add 10% to it, which would make the thrust of the JF-17 roughly 20104 with a weight to thrust ratio of 1.41lbf for every 1lb
2) The F-16 engine you mentioned is an optional engine where as the original engine has a thrust of 23,770lbf which gives us a ratio of 1.3, which in turn proves the JF-17 comes with more thrust then the F-16!
3) The optional IPE gives us a ratio of 1.58 which does increase the thrust of the optionally upgraded F-16 when compared to the JF-17. But future JF-17's will evolve as the needs of PAF evolve with time so we we definitely witness a more powerful engine and possibly with TVC and Super Cruise :)



Sigh... Chinese avionics suck. They turn to Russia for everything...

:roflmao3:



Uh, yeah... when you get Chinese avionics you get poor radar and electronics. PLAAF has been turning to Russia for everything and it will be for quite some time.

Surprisingly the Chinese radar performed better then the Russian one, hence was chosen over Russian radars.

And to be honest if we were looking at the absolute best we would have gone to Israel or US or UK or France or Germany etc but never to Russia, we are looking for cheap crap which works and so far we have concluded that if China doesn't have it yet we will have to get it from Russia but when China makes it they make it better then the cash strapped Russians!



Pakistan
GDP = $480 billion
per capita = $3,004

Russian Federation
GDP = $1.8 trillion
per capita = $12,200

Russian oil is only $130 billion of a 1.8 trillion economy and fuels the state budget. It is nice hardly paying any taxes... jealous?

:roflmao3:

A self declared super power comparing itself with a 3rd world country!!! :roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3:

USA
GDP = $13 Trillion
Per capita = $43,444

LOL!!!!

[froggy]

Pakistan
GDP = $480 billion
per capita = $3,004

Russian Federation
GDP = $1.8 trillion
per capita = $12,200

Russian oil is only $130 billion of a 1.8 trillion economy and fuels the state budget. It is nice hardly paying any taxes... jealous?

I was reading this thread tentatively especially about the cost of F16 when I got disturbed by this GDP stuff. I think the Pakistan's $480 B and the Russian $1800 B is too high. I don't know if I read in the past correctly that around 1995 income of:

Australia was $300 B,
Indonesia was $130 B,
Germany $2000 B,
Japan $4000 B,
US $7000
Pakistan was around $70

And few years ago I remember read in the newspaper that China was $900 B or 1000 B

Anyway I types that above of the memory so no guaranty, I will check it again later on.

[Vladimir80]

Those are the 2007 numbers... Russia is actually approaching 2 trillion by the end of the year. 1995-96 numbers are REALLY obsolete...

[Vladimir80]

I am not counting them here although Pakistan is getting 18 new and 18 old F-16's I am only discussing the 36 new F-16's that were proposed initially. Please read the above again, 2-3 times, carefully before you post again.

It is rather irrelavent to discuss a proposal that never took place.

Now that I have cleared it for the 3rd time, how does that make you feel? Ashamed? Feeling stupid? or just plain Russian????

Your initial statement was for 36 NEW F-16s...

1) 36 New F-16's: $3 Billion :shocked4:

Better to lay off the ad hominem attacks... they are quite juvenile.

Ok. The end user still has to pay for the whole package, agreed? I mean would these F-16's be any good without, say for example, Missiles? I tried to simplify things by suggesting their end cost instead of deliberating on their base unit cost which cannot even fly (as they probably come with an empty tank!)

This part of the conversation centered around quality of an aircraft (JF-17) based on cost. You have gone on an F-16 price tangent that has lead you astray of the fact you have already acknowledged... that unit cost is separate from a package deal. I will reiterate the position that the JF-17 is cheap and the quality of it is reflected in the unit price.

LOL! Yes PAC WILL put these together, so far their production has not commenced! And just so you know PAC does not keep the website, neither does it update it regularly, that is the job of an outsourced company which will only update the page once informed or ordered to do so by PAC.

PAC is the source mate... what it says goes unless you have an OFFICIAL statement from the government perhaps???

I think the order was placed for 100 RD-93 engines with a probability of the order going as high as 1000 or until WS-13 is in serial production (after induction post performance satisfaction).

At the rate Chinese development is going it looks like decades.

Oh and perhaps you are not aware, there are other countries that make Air Craft engines! Personally I wonder why Pakistan/China couldn't just go to a German/French company instead for the engines, I mean we would have paid a bit more but we would have bought something real, not some old ****!

Perhaps you are not aware but China is still embargoed by the EU from military purchases since Tianamen so you can quit with the pipe dreams.

I also wonder what you will do when the Indian order goes to Boeing or Lockheed Martin

If India buys American in MCA I will be pissed. We shall see...

you guys cannot afford to make newer Air Craft for yourself you are so lame, would you start selling off your Air Force and Navy to feed yourselves if Pakistan and China too stop buying from you?

There really is no need to flame, it is rather childish.

Yes, amongst others :)

Why am I not suprised...

There are 3 points missing in your post:

1) RD-93B is supposedly 10% more powerful then the engine specification you gave above. You failed to add 10% to it, which would make the thrust of the JF-17 roughly 20104 with a weight to thrust ratio of 1.41lbf for every 1lb

What RD-93B? I was not aware this engine was in further development. Please share the rating for this new mystery engine and the source that reports it. They certainly aren't in the scheduled batches to PAF.

2) The F-16 engine you mentioned is an optional engine where as the original engine has a thrust of 23,770lbf which gives us a ratio of 1.3, which in turn proves the JF-17 comes with more thrust then the F-16!

It is a common F-16 engine thrust rating... You making up facts isn't helping your case.


3) The optional IPE gives us a ratio of 1.58 which does increase the thrust of the optionally upgraded F-16 when compared to the JF-17. But future JF-17's will evolve as the needs of PAF evolve with time so we we definitely witness a more powerful engine and possibly with TVC and Super Cruise :)

Super cruising JF-17s... no one would waste the money. Keep dreaming... :no2:


Surprisingly the Chinese radar performed better then the Russian one, hence was chosen over Russian radars.

It was chosen because you didn't have a choice... Russia isn't shipping radars to Pakistan because of India... durh :err2:

we are looking for cheap crap

That is exactly what JF-17 gives you... CONGRATULATIONS!

[cheetah786]

wasnt the topic about indias fighter purchase.u guys are discussing pakistans f16 and jf-17.

question is when is this order of 126 fighters going to be placed.i was just a baby when india decided to buy them soon i will be an old man still no order yet.
:roflmao3:

[Vladimir80]

.i was just a baby when india decided to buy them soon i will be an old man still no order yet.
:roflmao3:

I know... this is taking too long. :no4:

[Maverick]

wasnt the topic about indias fighter purchase.u guys are discussing pakistans f16 and jf-17.

question is when is this order of 126 fighters going to be placed.i was just a baby when india decided to buy them soon i will be an old man still no order yet.
:roflmao3:

When the competition started it was for a light weight combat air craft, lately it has changed to a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft. India will probably replace her Mig-21's with LCA and by the time India actually accepts a vendor it will probably be for her Mig-27 and Mig-29's plus Jaguars which need to retire in 2015. I personally think the French (Rafale) or the Russian (Mig-35) are the strongest contendors but the US (F/A-18 Super Hornet) brings the most to the table (especially with its APG-79 AESA Radars).

[Maverick]

It is rather irrelavent to discuss a proposal that never took place.


Your initial statement was for 36 NEW F-16s...

:shocked4:

Better to lay off the ad hominem attacks... they are quite juvenile.

Talking to you is like trying to teach a kid how to count apples. You ask the kid to count the apples and the kid keeps on asking questions on the apple, its color, its origin, its taste.....in short everything but the count!

Anyway as you have finally realized that it is irrelevant what Pakistan is going to purchase rather the thing that you should have focussed on is the fact that the cost of the package was $3.6 Billion. It was authorized, ordered but the unfortunate earthquake in Pakistan cut the order short to 18 new ones. But the point here is we were discussing the cost of the package offered by the US and not whether Pakistan actually bought or accepted the package or not!.



This part of the conversation centered around quality of an aircraft (JF-17) based on cost. You have gone on an F-16 price tangent that has lead you astray of the fact you have already acknowledged... that unit cost is separate from a package deal. I will reiterate the position that the JF-17 is cheap and the quality of it is reflected in the unit price.

To sum up what you wrote so far, it means "Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah"!

Again it is irrelevant whether it is an F-16 or a JF-17, they both cost money, different but surely they both do. We were not discussing quality of the Air Craft either, we were discussing the end cost of a package deal!

I am so tired of explaining the self explanatory, again and again. How old are you anyway?



PAC is the source mate... what it says goes unless you have an OFFICIAL statement from the government perhaps???

Just 2-3 posts back I also copied and pasted the following from the same website:

"Production will start in 2005 and the first four locally-built aircraft will be handed over to the PAF in December 2006, another four will be delivered by March 2007. Full rate production is planned to start in 2007 turning out 20 aircraft per year.
Earlier news reported 16 aircraft to be delivered in 2006, if this is still true, 12 will be produced by CAC of which four will be delivered to Pakistan.
The initial production aircraft will probably feature a Chinese radar which would enable use of the Chinese BVR SD-10 missile. But Pakistan plans to put the GRIFFO radar in the initial production aircraft for evaluation and testing of the avionics with the GRIFFO."

To a normal, Human, with intelligence the above is sufficient proof that the webpage is not update. It is atleast 2 years old as the first 2 JF-17's were not handed over to Pakistan until March 2007 and the serial production will start in 2008. But I did take too much for granted I guess as the above is only evidently sufficient for a 'normal' human!



At the rate Chinese development is going it looks like decades.

The Chinese developed the JF-17 in a record 4 years. Hopefully it won't take them long to fine tune the WS-13 to our specification.



Perhaps you are not aware but China is still embargoed by the EU from military purchases since Tianamen so you can quit with the pipe dreams.

Black markets, backdoor channels and willing traders, money can buy anything :) I mean we all know Russia was selling her Nuclear Weapons, so obviously others would be willing to sell as well.



If India buys American in MCA I will be pissed. We shall see..

But that's the point, If India buys from the US you will be able to sell to Pakistan as well so....



There really is no need to flame, it is rather childish.

Wasn't really trying to flame, was only wondering!



Why am I not suprised...

Because you are Russian ;)?



What RD-93B? I was not aware this engine was in further development. Please share the rating for this new mystery engine and the source that reports it. They certainly aren't in the scheduled batches to PAF.

It doesn't mean that things don't exist if you particularly are not aware of their existence!

Production version to have further improved RD-93B with 10%
more thrust (http://wapedia.mobi/en/JF-17_Thunder?p=2)
JF-17 Thunder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder)
JF-17 Thunder at Wikivisual (http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/JF-17_Thunder)

Please also be advised that full performance specification of the JF-17 has and will not be revealed to general public. It will only be released to the buyer. What we all know is the least the JF-17 is capable of.



It is a common F-16 engine thrust rating... You making up facts isn't helping your case.

:roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3:

Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 afterburning turbofan is the basic power plant for the F-16. Prove me wrong or Prove the ratings you posted for F-16's to match the performance of this engine!

:roflmao3::roflmao3:



Super cruising JF-17s... no one would waste the money. Keep dreaming... :no2:

I will :)



It was chosen because you didn't have a choice... Russia isn't shipping radars to Pakistan because of India... durh :err2:

If that is the case how come Russia sold the 500 or so engines (according to you) for JF-17 to Pakistan indirectly? The radars too were offered indirectly and were rejected because of poor performance in comparison to their Chinese counterparts!



That is exactly what JF-17 gives you... CONGRATULATIONS!

Cheers mate :) Our crap is in the least better then yours ;)

[froggy]

Those are the 2007 numbers... Russia is actually approaching 2 trillion by the end of the year. 1995-96 numbers are REALLY obsolete...

Yes I just checked it and you are right, what I know was too far back. The growth numbers for Russia is quite impressive too. By right with that income it should be a magnet for the world poors. Sometimes the reality of life and the numbers on the paper are different.
----------------------------

Population
- 2006 estimate 142,754,000
GDP (PPP) 2006 estimate
- Total $1.727 trillion (8th1)
- Per capita $12,096 (59th)

According to the Federal State Statistics Service of Russia, the monthly nominal average salary in January 2007 was 11,410 rubles (about $437nominally; about $793 PPP), 26.6 percent higher than in January 2006.
----------------------------
In 1995 Australia was probably +/- 17-18 million people with US300 billions. Therefore it was an average US$ 17,000 per person. I think the numbers that I saw in the encyclopedia were correct.
Numbers can be played, but the reality of life is the one do the telling.

I will do this in other place if I feel like to pursue it. Anyway back to F-16.

[Maverick]

Man if India does not go for Russian Air Craft it will probably be the first step towards bye bye for the Russian Aviation industry!

[Vladimir80]

Man if India does not go for Russian Air Craft it will probably be the first step towards bye bye for the Russian Aviation industry!

No... just the end of MIG.

[Maverick]

No... just the end of MIG.

and MIG is not an aviation giant in Russia? And nothings gonna happen to Sukhoi?

[Vladimir80]

and MIG is not an aviation giant in Russia? And nothings gonna happen to Sukhoi?

Sukhoi is the succesor for PAK FA and all of Russias latest jets so they have plenty of money... India is supposed to be funding MIG's 5th gen aircraft but if they pull out MIG is done. All the contracts they would have left would be SMT upgrades which Israel and Belarus are giving their own Mig-29 upgrades in competition. All Russia's aircraft companies have been consolidated into UABC so if MIG go under Sukhoi just absorb them.

[Sinosphere]

I am not sure why India is planning to purchase 126 fighters.

I thought India is making the LCA and the MCA?

Maybe, they want to modernise the majority of their Air Force Inventory?

If anyone knows, please let me know, many thanks.

[Maverick]

I am not sure why India is planning to purchase 126 fighters.

I thought India is making the LCA and the MCA?

Maybe, they want to modernise the majority of their Air Force Inventory?

If anyone knows, please let me know, many thanks.

LCA was delayed beyond imagination. So far it is still under development and is not believed to be in serial production before 2012 I guess.

The Kaveri Engine that it was supposed to use hasn't been up to the mark either and may not be ready by 2009.

Not much is known about the MCA except that it is still in design phase and is supposed to be a 5th Generation Jet for IAF in the future along with PAK-FA from Sukhoi.

[Maverick]

Sukhoi is the succesor for PAK FA and all of Russias latest jets so they have plenty of money... India is supposed to be funding MIG's 5th gen aircraft but if they pull out MIG is done. All the contracts they would have left would be SMT upgrades which Israel and Belarus are giving their own Mig-29 upgrades in competition. All Russia's aircraft companies have been consolidated into UABC so if MIG go under Sukhoi just absorb them.

And what happens once India starts buying US jets? What if India just buys F-16's now and then F-35's later on....where does that leave PAK-FA???

And by what year is it going to be ready anyway? Will it be even close to the performance of F-22's or F-35's?

Mate I am so concerned........

[Vladimir80]

And what happens once India starts buying US jets? What if India just buys F-16's now and then F-35's later on....where does that leave PAK-FA???

And by what year is it going to be ready anyway? Will it be even close to the performance of F-22's or F-35's?

Indian purchase does not effect PAK FA as funding has already been secured. Development of 5 gen fighter is priority with or without Indian participation. As the cost of F-35 hit it's ceiling more will flock to PAK FA as we always have lower cost. If India likes PAK FA they are welcome... if they like something else that is their right.

The performance will be in the middle of F-22 and F-35.

The final plans have been finished and is in production phase. First flight is scheduled roughly in 18 months.

Mate I am so concerned........

umm.... ok :3eyes4:

[Maverick]

Indian purchase does not effect PAK FA as funding has already been secured. Development of 5 gen fighter is priority with or without Indian participation. As the cost of F-35 hit it's ceiling more will flock to PAK FA as we always have lower cost. If India likes PAK FA they are welcome... if they like something else that is their right.

The performance will be in the middle of F-22 and F-35.

The final plans have been finished and is in production phase. First flight is scheduled roughly in 18 months.



umm.... ok :3eyes4:

Well you may not believe it but I actually want India to go for a non Russian package, open doors for us to be able to buy from you directly! Maybe even invest in Mig 1.44 with the help of China :)

[Vladimir80]

Well you may not believe it but I actually want India to go for a non Russian package, open doors for us to be able to buy from you directly! Maybe even invest in Mig 1.44 with the help of China :)

Why would you want Russian "junk"? That is all you ever call it. Could that just have been remarks in the heat of the moment you really did not mean?

[Maverick]

Why would you want Russian "junk"? That is all you ever call it. Could that just have been remarks in the heat of the moment you really did not mean?

Not really, I never meant Junk Junk.....I meant inferior when compared to US equipment. Now we cannot compare a PAK-FA or Mig 1.44 to an F-22 or F-35 because they are already 10-15 years more advanced and proven.

I wonder if we can even compare the SU-30MKI to Eurofighter Typhoon. And I do not like the fact that Russian avionics are so inferior that India decided to go for Israeli and European Avionics for the MKI.

But if we can get Sukhoi PAK-FA or Mig 1.44 for around the same cost as our F-16's then by all means I would much rather go for them then these F-16's!

[Sinosphere]

LCA was delayed beyond imagination. So far it is still under development and is not believed to be in serial production before 2012 I guess.

The Kaveri Engine that it was supposed to use hasn't been up to the mark either and may not be ready by 2009.

Not much is known about the MCA except that it is still in design phase and is supposed to be a 5th Generation Jet for IAF in the future along with PAK-FA from Sukhoi.

Thank you for the reply and your comments. I really would like to see how the LCA and MCA would turn out as I think it would be interesting fighters.

[ironbar]

:roflmao3::roflmao3:





:roflmao3::roflmao3::roflmao3:

Hilarious mate, you and your posts....at last some one who makes the sane ones laugh!

you know that this is true
no other country want to buy it
it has the same capabilities as an upgraded f-5 with only one engine
other countries will buy used f-16 before they buy the fc-17
you know that this is true

[aryan]

I dont think India should buy the Mig35 too much reliance on Russia I guess..

[aryan]

LCA and MCA shall be capable fighters but are taking too much time in development.

[aryan]

I believe Russian equipment and hardware are as good as USA since the US essentially sells the strip downs without licensed production. Indian needs lower cost and fully configured planes essentially to negate threats by Pakistan, China and other neighbouring countries and to dominate its sphere of influence, for which russian equipment is more than capable.

[Sokuy30]

They should keep the money in asia, "Buy Russian"
India is very calming country we here love them that's
what happens when they vote with usa.
Atleast they make good food

[aryan]

HAHAHA good food I agree though I love Russian Stolichanya Vodka alongwith it...
I say build everything inhouse and keep money in India ;-)... No no I hope India continues to source quality Russian military products and may more joint development take place between the two ..
Russian people esp girls are also loved by all ;-).. Russian girls are the best though...Just kidding bruv..
Indo-Russian ties are very old and strong and hope they continue..

[Vladimir80]

HAHAHA good food I agree though I love Russian Stolichanya Vodka alongwith it...

What kind of Sikh are you that you drink alcohol?

Indo-Russian ties are very old and strong and hope they continue..

So that's why you want them to buy F-35 eh?

[aryan]

Sikhs drink a lot bruv hahahah more than you can imagine.. I guess you are not fully informed about the sikhs...

Hell there is a joke that goes like Sikhs are raised on the whisky bottle and not the milk bottle... Jokes apart..See F35 will be available in 2012 and later who knows by then we might actually have the LCA??
Anyways we continue and will continue to source Russian arms that won't change. India has had bad experience of American sanctions and what Indonesia faced after East timor I don't think Indians will ever buy Amercian goods in good quantity..
Though in my personal opinion India should not depend on russia for all its supplies doesn't make sense innit?? If something happens...

[Vladimir80]

Sikhs drink a lot bruv hahahah more than you can imagine.. I guess you are not fully informed about the sikhs...

The Sikh Reht Maryada states, "A Sikh must not take hemp, opium, liquor, tobacco, or any intoxicant."

[aryan]

The under-mentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided:

(1) Dishonoring the hair;
(2) Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;
(3) Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;
(4) Using tobacco.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Rehat_Maryada

CHeers

Well I am what they call Sehajdhari Sikh..
I cut my hair and beard. used to smoke up and do shisha.. ... Still do alcohol and non halal meat though I don't take eggs ... I do not practice martial arts though used to go for target shooting .. I keep only 2 K's instead of the 5..

Sikh basically consists of those who follow the Khalsa Panth fully baptised and the non khalsa or the normal sikh path, namdhari, radha soami different grades..... For eg many Sikhs go to Muslim pir's dargah not mosques for example Baba Farid mausoleum in Lahore, whose verses we respect and meditate upon beside other muslim and hindu saints... and many muslims also visit the Sikh Gurudwaras.. even many hindus visit the Sikh Gurudwaras though Sikhs are not supposed to but a few do go to the Hindu Mandirs..
Sindhi Hindus usually maintain a Gurumandir where the essentially follow the teachings uptil the 5th guru thaat is they are not following the Gurus who instilled Military beliefs and the saint soldier concepts.... Many hindus follow both the beliefs hence cannot be called sikhs and lots of intermarriage takes place amongst the hindus and sikhs.. and there was a lot of camraderie prepartition amongst the sikhs and muslims as they belonged to the same castes, race and both were monotheistic religions...