Serbian AirForce

[Khalkhali]

Is anybody have a dcoumentable fact about how many NATO fighter were down by serbian Air Force in Balkan war?

[TOMMYJO]

Even the Serbian Air Force admit that the only manned aircraft that they downed was one F-16CG and one F-117A. Both of these kills by SA-3 GOA are attributed to the 250th Rocket Brigade.

Some aircraft took combat damage such as the A-10. Combat damage does not mean that an aircraft was lost in combat. At least two A-10s were hit by ground fire over Kosovo, landed and were subsequently repaired.

No Serbian Air Force pilot made any air-to-air claim kills against any NATO aircraft. The only claims that were made for them was by the Yugoslav Ministry of Information. After the conflict the Serb MiG-29 pilots were most upset that their post combat reports had been manipulated by ghost writers from the Ministry of Information - especially as two of the 127 Fighter Squadron had died in the air-to-air combat that had taken place.

What you have existing on the Internet is the remains of the propaganda campaign from the Yugoslav Ministry of Information. Type in 'Nato losses' into Google and you'll get lists made from Serbian teenagers living in Yugoslavia, Canada and from U.S. citizens with Russian ancestry. You'll find all the fantasy stories that you can ever imagine. Everything from NATO aircrew Prisoners of War to forced downed and captured F-117s, AH-64s along with B-52s and B-2s.

The Yugoslav Ministry of Information claims got more and more extreme as the conflict continued. Everything from captured NATO aircrew all the way up to several B-52H and B-2A downed over Yugoslavia. It was simply an attempt to create an illusion for the populace that the enemy was being soundly defeated. After the conflict many people were most upset that they had been soundly lied to.

Bojan Bugarcic on 25th November 1999 (Bugarcic, was
the Senior Advisor on International Affairs to Yugoslav President Milosevic)
gave an interview after the conflict.

"He [Bugarcic] said that, throughout the war, a tremendous, and
extremely effective, propaganda campaign had been mounted by the
Serbian military. The aim was to keep the populace believing their
forces were mounting a spirited defence. "Using the state broadcaster, unofficial 'Russian intelligence' web pages and Army communiqués, the deception had been so successful that many people were fooled. My 22-year-old translator, Vlada Kopric, was one example. While he vehemently denounced the government-controlled RTS media network as spouting 'pure lies,' his explorations on the Internet had led him to the bogus Russian intelligence site. As a result, up until my November interview with Bugarcic, Vlada had truly believed that the Serbian military had successfully shot down 78 NATO aircraft. "He was devestated when he learned the truth."

[Vladimir80]

There was more aircraft destroyed on the Tulza Airport raid than listed here.

[TOMMYJO]

There was more aircraft destroyed on the Tulza Airport raid than listed here.


You have just provided a classic example of the fantasy stories produced during the conflict.

If you believe the claimed Tuzla air raid then you will also believe the claimed air-raid on Rinas, Albania?

Look on the web. All nicely detailed with Yugoslav heroic pilot deaths, aircraft involved, maps etc.

You are aware that aviation journalists have visited and spoken to the Serbian Air Force commanders of some of these units that were claimed to have
taken part in those fantasy raids? Strange that no unit citations exist or any records of those fantastically successful claimed air raids?


The stories of the raids were fantasy tales created by Serb teenagers such as Djordje Pavicevic. Check out all the 'Xs' of crashed NATO manned aircraft in his map?
All those aircraft downed and the only two they can display in the museum is the F-117A and F-16CG?


http://www.pancevo.co.yu/agresija/nato_gubici.html

The claimed Yugoslav air-raids on Tuzla, Bosnia and Rinas, Albania were
complete and utter fabrications. I fully understand that you guys like a
good story, but this is exactly what it amounts to.

Take Tuzla for example. The Russian, as part of Multinational Division
North, have a laison staff stationed at the airbase since their first
deployment. This assists with airhead tasks for Russian transport aircraft
and other support assistance to the Russian SFOR troops stationed in Bosnia.
Where was all this death and destruction caused by these air-raids?
Certainly not witnessed by any of the Russian forces stationed in Bosnia?
What of the local Bosnian press. The Bosnian press were present at every
SFOR press conference and still not one mention of this claimed air-raid on
Tuzla. What of the Tuzla Fire Service stationed at the airport? All these
non-NATO witnesses and still this air-raid remains covered up? Is this what
you are suggesting? The same individuals who fabricated the Tuzla air-raid
also fabricated the one on Rinas, Albania. Rinas was swarming with
international aid workers and scores of non-NATO personell and yet nobody
witnessed all the death destruction and carnage from this air-raid?

Task Force ALBA was the name given to the operation by the Swiss Defence
Department. The force consisted of 50 personnel made up of military pilots,
ground personnel and soldiers. Three AS 532 Cougars, serials T-315, T-322
and T-312 , were deployed to Rinas and by the 9th of April they were fully
operational. The Swiss also used a hired Spanish Air Force CASA CN 234 for
re-supply flights between Switzerland and Albania. The Swiss Defence
Minister, Federal Councillor Adolf Ogi, Chief of the General Staff, Ulrich
Scherrer and Lieutenant General Fernaud Carrel visited Rinas during the
summer and expressed their satisfaction with the work carried out by the
Swiss Task Force ALBA. Isn't it strange that not one member of this
humanitarian mission, which was stationed at Rinas before Task Force Hawk
arrived, reported to these chiefs that Rinas or the local area had come
under air attack from the Serbs? Alongside the Swiss was also a contingent
of Austrian Air Force Bell 212/4s. Both nations are non-aligned. The airport
was also a hub for international humanitarian aid some of which were flown
in from Russia.



So if you still believe in Tuzla air raids then why did the Serbs launch an air raid on a base that had elements of Russian SFOR.
Now that wouldn't be a very clever thing to do, now would it? The Russians that eventually entered Pristina/Slatina airport in BTRs were from the SFOR
contingent in Bosnia as part of the Multinational Division North. All those Russian troops and still no claims of the base suffering a devastating air raid.

The same goes for Rinas, Albania. All those non-allinged humanitarian detachments along with Russian civil transport flights. All those independent people and
organisations and yet a devastating air raid was claimed to have taken place. Bombs dropping and aircraft, helicopters exploding and yet nobody noticed all the carnage?
Strange that isn't it?

The fantasy tales even claim that during the Tuzla raid that Yugoslav pilots died. It even names them.

Strange that no unit citation exists either in the Serb Air Force for the units that took part or that the claimed deceased Serb pilot was awarded any bravery awards?

The claimed air raids were a complete non-sense and existed only in the minds of the teenagers that created the stories and the maps.

[Vladimir80]

Serbia will attack any NATO forces they see as threat. If Russians in the way I doubt if they stop for them. Yugoslav forces claim to have shot down over 60 manned aircraft and stick to that number. I don't know who to believe but I do know they shot down an F-117 which was supposed to be impossible so maybe I believe Serbs.

[Relikt]

Our AF didnt down any jet but aur AirDefense (PVO) down many.

TOMMYJO you talk BS. Simple as that. First take world map and look for Serbia and Montenegro(SRJ). You will see that Serbia and Montenegro(SRJ) is small country surround with many other states (Macedonia, Albania, BiH, Croatia, Rumania, Hungary) and Adriatic sea. Our biggest cities are close to boarders. So even if we hit something there is big probability that will fall in other state. I know people for Macedonia and they say that something big was fall in Macedonia. NATO close huge area of land and gather everything. Retired Captain Zoltan(working as baker today in his barkery) which kill F-117 said on our TV (2007) that our defence hit B-2. Use your brain.
F-117 is two times smaller on radar screen then B-2. B-2 is huge plane and it is excellent job making him so stelthy but again it isnt stealth as F-117 because of its size.

There are many reports in neighboor states newpapers about fire and explosions near Serbian boarder. General W. Clark said in middle of campaign that NATO can lost 100 jets because it is only 5% of using jets. Why do you think he said that?

S. Milosevic said during his trail to some NATO guy (witness of prosecutor) that SRJ had deal with NATO to protect and return all capture pilots and that was done during bombing. NATO guy confirm that. We in Belgrade never knew that our government had any pilot in thier hand but it apper they had. Who many? It is confidential information which we will know maybe in 20years in future.

It is stupid beliving that SRJ killed smaller number of jets then Iraq in first GW. SRJ had much better landscape, had many woods, and had much better train and motived solders then Iraq. NATO only confirm this two aircrafts because we have photos of them. As I said many others crash outside of SRJ.

USA was liar and remain liar. Lets remember Korea war. First numbers were 800 Mig-15 to 80 F-86. Later it was reduce 400 Mig-15 to 80 F-86. And today real number is 200-240 Mig-15 to 80 F-86.

Vietnam war. USA lost 3500 planes and 10000 helicopters still talks about their superiorty technology. That technology failed against N. Vietnam who it would act against powerful USSR?
BVR missiles on F-4 Phantom miss a lot Migs during that conflict but agian USA said thier missiles are superb. And because of superb missiles they put gun pod on F-4 :)

First GW. Bush senior: "Patriot vs. SCUD, 42 intercept 41 destroyed" And truth was that non Patriot destroy SCUD.

So who would you believe USA or logic? If you believe USA which proven liar about their efficiency you will accept that two down planes and if you believe in logic you will not accept two down planes. Who many is down? I really dont know and we will knwo that maybe in next 20 years or more.

[TOMMYJO]

You are not thinking here. The last thing that Yugoslavia wanted was to be seen as taking the conflict outside its borders. It had to be seen in the eyes of the world as the small guy being bombed by NATO. Any force incursion outside would have backfired substantially. NATO limited its air attacks and certain targets were put off limits. The last thing that Yugoslavia wanted would be to wipe out a group of Russians at Tuzla or a civilian humanitarian contingent by accident at Rinas.

Certain countries like France vetoed a number of strategic targets and put them off limits. Such a claimed air raid on Rinas and Tuzla would have resulted in the gloves coming off and the air targets off limits being targeted.

The Yugoslav Navy was warned to stay in port and not take part. If it stayed put it would not be targeted. It duly stayed put and took no part in the conflict. Just one of the targets that was left alone.

Just because one F-117 was shot down doesn't mean that NATO suffered substantial losses in its other fleet. Yugoslavia could produce no downed aircrew, no aircrew POWs and no wreckage of their claimed kills. No NATO aircrew died as a result of combat and none taken prisoner. Both USAF pilots that ejected over Serbia were rescued from inside Serbia, thus denying Yugoslavia of NATO aircrew Prisoners of War. The Red Cross inside Serbia only had the task of handling the repatriation of 3 Serb soldiers held by the U.S. and overseeing the 3 U.S Army soldiers from the United Nations peacekeeping detachment in Macedonia. No NATO aircrew or their bodies were repatriated by the Red Cross. If you look at the link that I supplied you then you'll see all the fantastic tales of crashed aircraft inside Serbia and all the tales of lost aircrew, ejections, POWs etc.

Just the same as the Serbs decoyed on the ground then NATO decoyed in the air. Think about how many electronic hits that the Serbs would obtain from thier SAM equipment? They would dutifully report a hit when in fact they had been spoofed and jammed by NATO. With the help of onboard systems and stand-off jammers such as EA-6B Prowler the actual target wasn't there.

Think about all those manned aircraft missing from the inventories of NATO. Where did they all go? You are talking about 60 manned aircraft going missing from numerous air forces in the U.S. and Europe. Where did they all go? Did they secretly re-open the production lines to stock up on all the Tornadoes etc claimed on those 'NATO losses' lists? Aircraft enthuisiasts were standing outside bases in Italy and Germany photographing and listing arrivals and departures. The same applies for the B-52H force deployed against Yugoslavia in England. They noted the loss of the F-16CG and F-117A. Why no other losses? From 1999 to present day still no lost aircraft from several air forces taking part? Why is that? It must be the biggest conspiracy theory in history. Still not one investigative aviation journalist has uncovered those aircraft lost in combat or their missing crews. Think about all the different air forces involved in combat during Kosovo. All those crew chiefs and personell involved from many nations and still no stories of the aircraft that they sent out not coming back or never seeing the aircrew again. What about their families and loved ones. All those aircraft missing and not a single family asking where their loved ones are?

The conclusion is that the propaganda machine ran crazy with claims. Just the same as the Serbs decoyed on the ground then NATO decoyed in the air. Strange that the Serbs can produce images of the majority of unmanned aircraft shot down, but not produce the goods on the scores of unmanned.

All these years and not one break in this vast conspiracy theory that must be going on to cover up the 'NATO losses'. Imagine the monetary value to retired and ex-members of those NATO air forces with tales to tell?

[Prinz Eugen]

Our AF didnt down any jet but aur AirDefense (PVO) down many.


Do you have a list of the Aircraft downed by the air defense units?

[Relikt]

You are not thinking here. The last thing that Yugoslavia wanted was to be seen as taking the conflict outside its borders. It had to be seen in the eyes of the world as the small guy being bombed by NATO. Any force incursion outside would have backfired substantially. NATO limited its air attacks and certain targets were put off limits. The last thing that Yugoslavia wanted would be to wipe out a group of Russians at Tuzla or a civilian humanitarian contingent by accident at Rinas.

Certain countries like France vetoed a number of strategic targets and put them off limits. Such a claimed air raid on Rinas and Tuzla would have resulted in the gloves coming off and the air targets off limits being targeted.

The Yugoslav Navy was warned to stay in port and not take part. If it stayed put it would not be targeted. It duly stayed put and took no part in the conflict. Just one of the targets that was left alone.

Just because one F-117 was shot down doesn't mean that NATO suffered substantial losses in its other fleet. Yugoslavia could produce no downed aircrew, no aircrew POWs and no wreckage of their claimed kills. No NATO aircrew died as a result of combat and none taken prisoner. Both USAF pilots that ejected over Serbia were rescued from inside Serbia, thus denying Yugoslavia of NATO aircrew Prisoners of War. The Red Cross inside Serbia only had the task of handling the repatriation of 3 Serb soldiers held by the U.S. and overseeing the 3 U.S Army soldiers from the United Nations peacekeeping detachment in Macedonia. No NATO aircrew or their bodies were repatriated by the Red Cross. If you look at the link that I supplied you then you'll see all the fantastic tales of crashed aircraft inside Serbia and all the tales of lost aircrew, ejections, POWs etc.

Just the same as the Serbs decoyed on the ground then NATO decoyed in the air. Think about how many electronic hits that the Serbs would obtain from thier SAM equipment? They would dutifully report a hit when in fact they had been spoofed and jammed by NATO. With the help of onboard systems and stand-off jammers such as EA-6B Prowler the actual target wasn't there.

Think about all those manned aircraft missing from the inventories of NATO. Where did they all go? You are talking about 60 manned aircraft going missing from numerous air forces in the U.S. and Europe. Where did they all go? Did they secretly re-open the production lines to stock up on all the Tornadoes etc claimed on those 'NATO losses' lists? Aircraft enthuisiasts were standing outside bases in Italy and Germany photographing and listing arrivals and departures. The same applies for the B-52H force deployed against Yugoslavia in England. They noted the loss of the F-16CG and F-117A. Why no other losses? From 1999 to present day still no lost aircraft from several air forces taking part? Why is that? It must be the biggest conspiracy theory in history. Still not one investigative aviation journalist has uncovered those aircraft lost in combat or their missing crews. Think about all the different air forces involved in combat during Kosovo. All those crew chiefs and personell involved from many nations and still no stories of the aircraft that they sent out not coming back or never seeing the aircrew again. What about their families and loved ones. All those aircraft missing and not a single family asking where their loved ones are?

The conclusion is that the propaganda machine ran crazy with claims. Just the same as the Serbs decoyed on the ground then NATO decoyed in the air. Strange that the Serbs can produce images of the majority of unmanned aircraft shot down, but not produce the goods on the scores of unmanned.

All these years and not one break in this vast conspiracy theory that must be going on to cover up the 'NATO losses'. Imagine the monetary value to retired and ex-members of those NATO air forces with tales to tell?
If I hit F-16 over Novi Sad and it engine is badly damage there is big possibility that F-16 will crash in Hungary.

A. People in Macedonia say that something big crash near boarder with Serbia. NATO block whole region and search for smallest piece.

B. In local newpapers of neighbor countries form that time you can find reports about fires and exposions near Serbian boarder.

C. NATO guy confirm that Serbia return capture pilots during conflict. It was said on Milosevic trail.

D.Iraq down more then two jets during first GW. Iraq dont have mountains and woods and didnt had equipment and training as our guys.

E. I never said anything about Tuzla or Rina attacks. I dont know nothing about that.

F. I never said we down 60 jets. I just say that number of two wrecks doesnt mean that is all lost NATO jets. It is what could be taped in Serbia. Some other wrecks NATO bomb so it wasnt safe to tape and after bombing it didnt look like plane.

G. I never said anything about B-52.

H. General W.Clark said that NATO can loss 100 planes because they have 2000 planes in action. It was said in middle of war.
You believe that NATO couldnt hidden their losses?
Come on. Right number of jets in any bigger airforce is unknown. 10, 20 or 30 jets can easy be hidden.
You believe in US report and US loss its credibility long ago.
Just to repeat:
"Patriot vs. SCUD, 42 intercept 41 destroyed"

US using lie always. Sadam connections with AQ :) Sadam WMD :) etc

[TOMMYJO]

Our AF didnt down any jet but aur AirDefense (PVO) down many.

TOMMYJO you talk BS. Simple as that. First take world map and look for Serbia and Montenegro(SRJ). You will see that Serbia and Montenegro(SRJ) is small country surround with many other states (Macedonia, Albania, BiH, Croatia, Rumania, Hungary) and Adriatic sea. Our biggest cities are close to boarders. So even if we hit something there is big probability that will fall in other state. I know people for Macedonia and they say that something big was fall in Macedonia. NATO close huge area of land and gather everything. Retired Captain Zoltan(working as baker today in his barkery) which kill F-117 said on our TV (2007) that our defence hit B-2. Use your brain.
F-117 is two times smaller on radar screen then B-2. B-2 is huge plane and it is excellent job making him so stelthy but again it isnt stealth as F-117 because of its size.

There are many reports in neighboor states newpapers about fire and explosions near Serbian boarder. General W. Clark said in middle of campaign that NATO can lost 100 jets because it is only 5% of using jets. Why do you think he said that?

S. Milosevic said during his trail to some NATO guy (witness of prosecutor) that SRJ had deal with NATO to protect and return all capture pilots and that was done during bombing. NATO guy confirm that. We in Belgrade never knew that our government had any pilot in thier hand but it apper they had. Who many? It is confidential information which we will know maybe in 20years in future.

It is stupid beliving that SRJ killed smaller number of jets then Iraq in first GW. SRJ had much better landscape, had many woods, and had much better train and motived solders then Iraq. NATO only confirm this two aircrafts because we have photos of them. As I said many others crash outside of SRJ.

USA was liar and remain liar. Lets remember Korea war. First numbers were 800 Mig-15 to 80 F-86. Later it was reduce 400 Mig-15 to 80 F-86. And today real number is 200-240 Mig-15 to 80 F-86.

Vietnam war. USA lost 3500 planes and 10000 helicopters still talks about their superiorty technology. That technology failed against N. Vietnam who it would act against powerful USSR?
BVR missiles on F-4 Phantom miss a lot Migs during that conflict but agian USA said thier missiles are superb. And because of superb missiles they put gun pod on F-4 :)

First GW. Bush senior: "Patriot vs. SCUD, 42 intercept 41 destroyed" And truth was that non Patriot destroy SCUD.

So who would you believe USA or logic? If you believe USA which proven liar about their efficiency you will accept that two down planes and if you believe in logic you will not accept two down planes. Who many is down? I really dont know and we will knwo that maybe in next 20 years or more.

So they ALL conviently fell outside the borders. How convenient. Out of claimed 60 all but two fell within the borders. How, very, very convenient.

Secret deals. Those stories have been going on for years now. Why no break on those stories. Will they break in 20 years? It is fantastic that you actually believe those tales.

So what were the families told? Please explain? The International Committee of the Red Cross repatriated no NATO aircrew or bodies. How are the losses of those manned aircraft and crews still being covered up to this day?

Why is the 250th Rocket Brigade the only unit to be credited with the downing of two manned aircraft?

Many, many thousands of aircraft enthusiasts would like to know about those losses. Why haven't they uncovered them. You are aware of the freedom that aircraft enthusiasts have in Europe and the U.S.? They did this during Allied Force in Italy, Germany and the UK. Still nothing. Where did they all go?
It is something that people in Eastern Europe and other places worldwide that they cannot understand. If you popped up with a camera, scanner and notebook at a military airfield you would be immediately arrested. Not so in Italy during the campaign or in Germany and the UK.

So you believe in the conspiracy theory and secret deals? How is it still being covered up? Think about how many European governments have changed leaders and political parties since then? All those claimed German Tornadoes, Dutch F-16s, French Air Force Mirages, British Tornados and Harriers missing from the inventories and no-one can explain. All those Canadian F-18s lost even though they transited back through Scotland on their way back. It must be some conspiracy theory.

Think about it? All those people involved and still not one leak? Think of the monetory gain from one of the aircrew involved or from the personell of that Squadron involved? Think about how many of them after all these years are no longer in their respective air forces? Have they all been whisked away to Area 51?

Remember to get back to me when the stories start breaking? Clinton was in charge during the campaign. Explain to me how under his watch how missing U.S. manned aircraft and aircrew can go missing and the story not explode in his face? Explain how the losses, on Clintons watch, can still be covered up from the Republican Party after all these years?

[Relikt]

So they ALL conviently fell outside the borders. How convenient. Out of claimed 60 all but two fell within the borders. How, very, very convenient.

Secret deals. Those stories have been going on for years now. Why no break on those stories. Will they break in 20 years? It is fantastic that you actually believe those tales.

So what were the families told? Please explain? The International Committee of the Red Cross repatriated no NATO aircrew or bodies. How are the losses of those manned aircraft and crews still being covered up to this day?

Why is the 250th Rocket Brigade the only unit to be credited with the downing of two manned aircraft?

Many, many thousands of aircraft enthusiasts would like to know about those losses. Why haven't they uncovered them. You are aware of the freedom that aircraft enthusiasts have in Europe and the U.S.? They did this during Allied Force in Italy, Germany and the UK. Still nothing. Where did they all go?
It is something that people in Eastern Europe and other places worldwide that they cannot understand. If you popped up with a camera, scanner and notebook at a military airfield you would be immediately arrested. Not so in Italy during the campaign or in Germany and the UK.

So you believe in the conspiracy theory and secret deals? How is it still being covered up? Think about how many European governments have changed leaders and political parties since then? All those claimed German Tornadoes, Dutch F-16s, French Air Force Mirages, British Tornados and Harriers missing from the inventories and no-one can explain. All those Canadian F-18s lost even though they transited back through Scotland on their way back. It must be some conspiracy theory.

Think about it? All those people involved and still not one leak? Think of the monetory gain from one of the aircrew involved or from the personell of that Squadron involved? Think about how many of them after all these years are no longer in their respective air forces? Have they all been whisked away to Area 51?

Remember to get back to me when the stories start breaking? Clinton was in charge during the campaign. Explain to me how under his watch how missing U.S. manned aircraft and aircrew can go missing and the story not explode in his face? Explain how the losses, on Clintons watch, can still be covered up from the Republican Party after all these years?
Did I wrote 60 jets anywhere? Nope.
I just think that 2 jets is BS as 60 jets.

[TOMMYJO]

Relikt wrote

C. NATO guy confirm that Serbia return capture pilots during conflict. It was said on Milosevic trail.

Now you're talking non-sense. Please provide a citation/quote for that. Quote exactly and provide the name of this 'NATO guy' exactly. Please don't come back with 'I heard it'. You claimed that he said it so an exact name is required. His disclosure would be on the official record. The only U.S. people repatriated were the U.S. Army guys detained from the Macedonia border peacekeeping mission.

Please explain how no investigative journalist picked up on this? POW aircrew returned under Clinton's watch and nobody got their teeth into the story? How did they cover that one up? As I've said please provide full details.

Relikt wrote

F. I never said we down 60 jets. I just say that number of two wrecks doesnt mean that is all lost NATO jets. It is what could be taped in Serbia. Some other wrecks NATO bomb so it wasnt safe to tape and after bombing it didnt look like plane.


Oh please. NATO didn't even bomb the wreckage of the F-117. I'm afraid that your tales of NATO bombing wrecks in Serbia is complete fantasy. So nothing survived from those bombed wrecks then? How very convenient. Not one piece? Everything just convenientally disappeared?

The Serbs even went into photographing and videoing combat jettisoned fuel tanks. They actually believed that it was proof of shot down NATO aircraft. Maybe you saw some of them on TV?

[TOMMYJO]

Did I wrote 60 jets anywhere? Nope.
I just think that 2 jets is BS as 60 jets.

So even it if was 10 explain why and how they are still being covered up? Please get back to me with all the details that I have asked for in my previous post. Exact name of NATO guy etc

[Relikt]

So even it if was 10 explain why and how they are still being covered up? Please get back to me with all the details that I have asked for in my previous post. Exact name of NATO guy etc
I never saw jet fuel tanks on TV. Well I didnt watch TV much during bombing. Some wrecks were bomb especially after F-117 debacle. Well they didnt destroy everything but parts which left didnt look as evidence.
I dont know name of NATO guy and here is how transcripts look like:
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/transe54.htm
and they dont have search engine :(

P.S. W.Clark said that NATO destroy 200 Serbian tanks, and 90% of Serbian airforce :) . William Cohen said that Serbs killed 100.000 Albanians and H. Solana said that NATO have info that Serbs killed 500.000 Albanians. Also CNN en Espa&ntilde said that refugee colon was bomb by Serbian jets !?! and couple of days later NATO said that their jets bomb colon. As you see so many lies and you still believe in 2 downed jets.
Can I ask you one question?
Do you believe that Sadam had WMD when US attack Iraq? It is official report of US DoD same as jet losses.

[Oluf]

I never saw jet fuel tanks on TV. Well I didnt watch TV much during bombing. Some wrecks were bomb especially after F-117 debacle. Well they didnt destroy everything but parts which left didnt look as evidence.
I dont know name of NATO guy and here is how transcripts look like:
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/transe54.htm
and they dont have search engine :(

P.S. W.Clark said that NATO destroy 200 Serbian tanks, and 90% of Serbian airforce :) . William Cohen said that Serbs killed 100.000 Albanians and H. Solana said that NATO have info that Serbs killed 500.000 Albanians. Also CNN en Espa&ntilde said that refugee colon was bomb by Serbian jets !?! and couple of days later NATO said that their jets bomb colon. As you see so many lies and you still believe in 2 downed jets.
Can I ask you one question?
Do you believe that Sadam had WMD when US attack Iraq? It is official report of US DoD same as jet losses.

Unfortunately you are always referring to information given by news agencies or “of the record” declarations given during the operation when nobody really knew what was going on. However once things settled down there was never question about such figures that you are talking about here.

The only downed “NATO guys” you could be talking about are the two crew members of a French Mirage 2000 shot down in 1995 over Serbian Bosnia. This matter was discussed in the tribunal but it is related to a much earlier stage than the Kosovo conflict.

It is an old trick to “switch over” to another subject, but even if we all knows that Saddam’s WMD was BS, I cannot see why this should be connected to some sort of mysterious losses of NATO aircraft during the Kosovo conflict.

[Relikt]

Unfortunately you are always referring to information given by news agencies or “of the record” declarations given during the operation when nobody really knew what was going on. However once things settled down there was never question about such figures that you are talking about here.

The only downed “NATO guys” you could be talking about are the two crew members of a French Mirage 2000 shot down in 1995 over Serbian Bosnia. This matter was discussed in the tribunal but it is related to a much earlier stage than the Kosovo conflict.

It is an old trick to “switch over” to another subject, but even if we all knows that Saddam’s WMD was BS, I cannot see why this should be connected to some sort of mysterious losses of NATO aircraft during the Kosovo conflict.
Please it was simple propaganda. They all say BS and now no one of them is apology for that. Come on if someone said that 500.000 people was killed apology is smallest thing he can do after after war. Nope. West use media for dirty war against anyone.
Same thing is about losses. If someone want to believe in their story just because there is only two wrecks. I am not talking about 60 jets as others talk I am just say that there is surely more downed planes.
Why?
Because there are reports in neighbor newpapers about crashes. Bulgaria even setup high density air defense around their nuclear powerplant after one jet crash in some village near border with Serbia. Nuclear powerplant is 30km from border with Serbia. It was on their TV.

Milosevic said only that Serbia and NATO had deal to return downed pilots trough Hungary during campaign. And this is what confirm some NATO guy. They never talk about number of pilots or something else. If you read interview with F-117 pilot (which identity is unknown because name on jet is name of different pilot) you will hear that Serbian police dogs didnt find him, that 100 people didnt find him even he was 300m from them and that his gps was working. He was rescue many hours later. To me it is BS. If his gps send signal he would be pin point with our search team. If dogs were near he would be capture. This is all funny tales. He was probable capture and then send to Hungary.
First american pilot down over Bosnia had much better chance not to be catch. He was down on mountain land with thick woods and he wasnt catch. This F-117 guy was down in plain with small wood and nothing more.

Our government doesnt want to have problems with NATO because we also what to became member so 1999 war is thing of past.

I just point out Sadam WMD as example of USA lie. If they lie then and many time before why they would came out with real number of lost jets when that number is very small. As I said I dont believe in 60 lost jets. To me it is much closer between 10 and 20.

[Oluf]

Please it was simple propaganda. They all say BS and now no one of them is apology for that. Come on if someone said that 500.000 people was killed apology is smallest thing he can do after after war. Nope. West use media for dirty war against anyone.
Same thing is about losses. If someone want to believe in their story just because there is only two wrecks. I am not talking about 60 jets as others talk I am just say that there is surely more downed planes.
Why?
Because there are reports in neighbor newpapers about crashes. Bulgaria even setup high density air defense around their nuclear powerplant after one jet crash in some village near border with Serbia. Nuclear powerplant is 30km from border with Serbia. It was on their TV.

Milosevic said only that Serbia and NATO had deal to return downed pilots trough Hungary during campaign. And this is what confirm some NATO guy. They never talk about number of pilots or something else. If you read interview with F-117 pilot (which identity is unknown because name on jet is name of different pilot) you will hear that Serbian police dogs didnt find him, that 100 people didnt find him even he was 300m from them and that his gps was working. He was rescue many hours later. To me it is BS. If his gps send signal he would be pin point with our search team. If dogs were near he would be capture. This is all funny tales. He was probable capture and then send to Hungary.
First american pilot down over Bosnia had much better chance not to be catch. He was down on mountain land with thick woods and he wasnt catch. This F-117 guy was down in plain with small wood and nothing more.

Our government doesnt want to have problems with NATO because we also what to became member so 1999 war is thing of past.

I just point out Sadam WMD as example of USA lie. If they lie then and many time before why they would came out with real number of lost jets when that number is very small. As I said I dont believe in 60 lost jets. To me it is much closer between 10 and 20.

Yes I do completely agree with you that these figures was completely BS propaganda and it is a fact that the “Albanians” and the Muslim Bosnians was always masters in showing themselves as victims on international TV.

However regarding the “numerous” downed NATO aircrafts it is a completely different story:
It is completely unrealistic to imagine that eventual losses of NATO aircraft in this conflict could have been kept secret. Aircrafts and crews must be accounted for and for the moment there is to my knowledge no wife missing her husband or a father missing his son after this conflict. On the other hand it is also very unlikely that a western armed force can cover the lost of one or several aircraft. Aircraft are expensive things and even if we see it happen in spy movies, it is in reality not possible for an air force just to loose an aircraft without any plausible explanation.
Another think is the complete lack of wreckages… Sincerely you must admit that this is really a practical problem.

Regarding the downed F117 pilot’s GPS receiver that was working and hence detectable:
My knowledge in GPS is limited and I am not able to understand in what way a GPS receiver is transmitting detectable signals. Could you please explain this matter?:worried2:

My final point is quite simple; why on earth should NATO cover up eventual losses in a conflict (while they lost one of their most valuable aircraft) and that to a stage that nobody is missing any crew and there are no wreckages to be found anywhere??

Get the tin hats on guys, some real conspiracy coming.
:roflmao3::roflmao3:

[Relikt]

OLUF my point is that no pilot died. They ejected. If they ejected over our land our guys had orders to pick them and drive them to Hungary. I really dont understand who search and rescue teams get 60 helicopters (yes I read on us site that number) and get out F-117 pilot. And didnt suffer any loss. We need to remember they were dealing with remnants of JNA once one of most powerful ground forces in Europe. To me it is BS. We capture their pilots and then send them home trough Hungary. With NEVA and KUB missiles we couldnt achieve any direct hit which will kill pilot. If we had lucky we would damage jet engine and force pilot to eject.
In Macedonia NATO close one big part of land near Serbian border. People saying they hear that night big noise from big jet and then explosion. In Bulgaria jet crash in small village. So this is two more jets. In Croatia F-117 landed during crash well it is wrote on wikipedia so is true I dont know.

[Oluf]

OLUF my point is that no pilot died. They ejected. If they ejected over our land our guys had orders to pick them and drive them to Hungary. I really dont understand who search and rescue teams get 60 helicopters (yes I read on us site that number) and get out F-117 pilot. And didnt suffer any loss. We need to remember they were dealing with remnants of JNA once one of most powerful ground forces in Europe. To me it is BS. We capture their pilots and then send them home trough Hungary. With NEVA and KUB missiles we couldnt achieve any direct hit which will kill pilot. If we had lucky we would damage jet engine and force pilot to eject.
In Macedonia NATO close one big part of land near Serbian border. People saying they hear that night big noise from big jet and then explosion. In Bulgaria jet crash in small village. So this is two more jets. In Croatia F-117 landed during crash well it is wrote on wikipedia so is true I dont know.

I really do not think that it is realistic to think that a large (unknown) number of NATO aircraft was shot down and none of the pilots where killed but captured and secretly escorted back to Hungary. Why on earth should the JNA do that?
Why should they fanatically display and parade the poor rests of a single F117, and on the other hand hide the rests of a large number of other NATO aircraft while secretly sending the pilots to Hungary? It simply doesn’t make sense.

My second hometown is Szeged (Hungary) and I know very well the northern Serbia (Vojvodina) and these stories seems very strange to me.

So if people heard something in Macedonia, where is the rests now? I do not think it is so simple to simply “wipe” a crash site from the earth (and anyway why?). If a jet crashed in Bulgaria (it is impossible for the NATO to secretly enter Bulgaria and recover all remains of a crash without anybody knowing) where is the wreckage? What they probably heard was a jet passing thru the sound barrier. Finally why should they do that??

That a F117 crash-landed in Croatia I never heard anything about, but this is much more a plausible story and I am ready to believe that it could be true.

How about the GPS ?

[TOMMYJO]

I will be away off forum for about a week. I'll reply to some of your questions when I get back from my trip.

In regards to the F-117 landing in Croatia.

The claim of the F-117 that landed in Croatia was simply an April
Fools joke. A radio station started the joke and Belgrade (Tanjug) picked up on the fake story and reported it as fact. The story even made it onto the TV in Serbia. The Croatians had a good laugh at the Serbs for falling for the April Fools story.

Similarly rumour control created the following fantasy report from the Serbian Unity Congress.

"5/30/99 Unofficial Internet sources reported a forced landing of a
damaged US F-117A aircraft at the Nis military airport in southern Serbia. The
unconfirmed report claims the pilot, unable to eject from the hit
plane, requested and was granted permission to land. No further details were
available."

So now the Serbs, according to the Serb Unity Congress, actually captured an F-117 and its pilot intact? :)

[Relikt]

First there wasnt big number of downed jets. Maybe 10+. We show F-117 because it is stealth :) and it was US proud jet. We didnt fanatically display F-16. Nope. F-117 was hype.

To me it is total unimportant did we downed 2, 10 or 50 jets because we lost that battle. I just think that number of 2 jets is BS.

I also dont know much about GPS but if something is transmit signal (strong one) it would trackable.

But fact is Serbian Air Force didnt down any jet fighter maybe couple of Tomhawks.

[Oluf]

First there wasnt big number of downed jets. Maybe 10+. We show F-117 because it is stealth :) and it was US proud jet. We didnt fanatically display F-16. Nope. F-117 was hype.

To me it is total unimportant did we downed 2, 10 or 50 jets because we lost that battle. I just think that number of 2 jets is BS.

OK but why should the NATO hide and deny (down to secretly taking the crash sites of the map) these shooting down of NATO aircraft? Why should the JNA hide and secretly return these pilots to the NATO?
Have you got a good reason to believe that “only” the 2 jets are just BS or is it something that you just want to believe?

I also dont know much about GPS but if something is transmit signal (strong one) it would trackable.

I do not know much about the GPS either (I am just a regular user), but as far as I know the little box in my aircraft (or hand) is called a GPS receiver (and not transmitter) and to my knowledge it doesn’t transmit anything. However I could be wrong.
Anyway I couldn’t find anting about transmitting by the receiver at this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps

Wikipedia is not always reliable, especially in political and otherwise passionate issues, but in this technical case, I think we can trust its information.
However I could have misunderstood, just explain to me how, when, and why the GPS receiver is transmitting and I will accept.

But fact is Serbian Air Force didnt down any jet fighter maybe couple of Tomhawks.

Ohh OK maybe… It is very unfortunate that they missed the one that went for the Chinese embassy:):)

[Relikt]

OK but why should the NATO hide and deny (down to secretly taking the crash sites of the map) these shooting down of NATO aircraft? Why should the JNA hide and secretly return these pilots to the NATO?
Have you got a good reason to believe that “only” the 2 jets are just BS or is it something that you just want to believe?



I do not know much about the GPS either (I am just a regular user), but as far as I know the little box in my aircraft (or hand) is called a GPS receiver (and not transmitter) and to my knowledge it doesn’t transmit anything. However I could be wrong.
Anyway I couldn’t find anting about transmitting by the receiver at this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps

Wikipedia is not always reliable, especially in political and otherwise passionate issues, but in this technical case, I think we can trust its information.
However I could have misunderstood, just explain to me how, when, and why the GPS receiver is transmitting and I will accept.



Ohh OK maybe… It is very unfortunate that they missed the one that went for the Chinese embassy:):)
Chinese embassy was hit by B-2 JDAM bombs. One is still inside of building.

Well every pilot watch with gps receiver and satellite transmitter (not gps).
So transmitter send his gps position to satellite.Only way for fast search and rescue mission is to know right position of target. It is excellent system but there is hole in system. What it enemy get there first? And that what was happen in this case. Guy even said there were train search dogs and they didnt find him. :)
I dont really know why NATO would hide small losses ???

O I remember to prove that thier equipment is so superior. After all they must have some reason to price their jets so high.

[Oluf]

Chinese embassy was hit by B-2 JDAM bombs. One is still inside of building.

OK it is very possible I do not at all know this story in details and I am sure that you would know best this story:)

Well every pilot watch with gps receiver and satellite transmitter (not gps).
So transmitter send his gps position to satellite.Only way for fast search and rescue mission is to know right position of target. It is excellent system but there is hole in system. What it enemy get there first? And that what was happen in this case. Guy even said there were train search dogs and they didnt find him. :)

Yepp it is possible :smile1: However and despite many things, they did not find him.:err2::err2:

O I remember to prove that thier equipment is so superior. After all they must have some reason to price their jets so high.

Naah it doesn’t really make sense. You know it is not NATO that decides the price of their aircraft, but the different manufacturing companies, and you are not going to make me believe that Boeing, Lockheed, or Dassault made special missions to cover up the horrendous cost of their aircraft.

[Relikt]

OK it is very possible I do not at all know this story in details and I am sure that you would know best this story:)



Yepp it is possible :smile1: However and despite many things, they did not find him.:err2::err2:



Naah it doesn’t really make sense. You know it is not NATO that decides the price of their aircraft, but the different manufacturing companies, and you are not going to make me believe that Boeing, Lockheed, or Dassault made special missions to cover up the horrendous cost of their aircraft.
It was in newspaper year or two ago. That JDAM is biggest problem with selling the building :).

Well F-117 pilot is lucky son of ***** or liar.

Well after all it is possible that we only down two jets. I really dont know. As I said there isnt big difference. We lost war :( .

[Oluf]

Yeah it was hard times for Serbia, however I do think that a lot of things have changed (on all sides) and the obstacles for Serbia’s “normalization” with the rest of Europe is getting smaller and smaller every day.
Industry, tourism, and many things are developing, and I think that within a few years there will be very little difference with countries like Hungary or Slovenia that are both progressing very well (in different ways) in their development.

[Relikt]

Yeah it was hard times for Serbia, however I do think that a lot of things have changed (on all sides) and the obstacles for Serbia’s “normalization” with the rest of Europe is getting smaller and smaller every day.
Industry, tourism, and many things are developing, and I think that within a few years there will be very little difference with countries like Hungary or Slovenia that are both progressing very well (in different ways) in their development.
Well we need 20 years to get Slovenia. But it can be done. Problem with Slovenia and Hungary is that bigger players in EU doesnt allow fast grow of new members. So until Serbia enter EU we will have this fast economical grow after then :(
Well it is some kind of economical equilibrium. But there is many advantages of EU membership and only fool wouldnt have to join club.

[Shades of Grey]

There was more aircraft destroyed on the Tulza Airport raid than listed here.

The only thing destroyed during that raid were two Serbian MiG-29's. I know. I recovered one of the canopies from one of those aircraft. :) There were a good number of 30mm rounds laying about as well as those fantastic R-73's. The crash site was a bit odd as the aircraft was flat. That whole "flat spin" thing is quite literal apparently. :)

[Vladimir80]

The only thing destroyed during that raid were two Serbian MiG-29's. I know. I recovered one of the canopies from one of those aircraft. :) There were a good number of 30mm rounds laying about as well as those fantastic R-73's. The crash site was a bit odd as the aircraft was flat. That whole "flat spin" thing is quite literal apparently. :)

Yous was in Bosnia? Did you happen to be in KFOR, maybe we cross paths.

[Shades of Grey]

Yous was in Bosnia? Did you happen to be in KFOR, maybe we cross paths.

I wasn't KFOR, but were you with the VDV brigade that I did business with?

[Vladimir80]

I wasn't KFOR, but were you with the VDV brigade that I did business with?

I never had contact with SFOR... I was stuck in Multinational Brigade South outside of Orahovac.

[TOMMYJO]

The only thing destroyed during that raid were two Serbian MiG-29's. I know. I recovered one of the canopies from one of those aircraft. :) There were a good number of 30mm rounds laying about as well as those fantastic R-73's. The crash site was a bit odd as the aircraft was flat. That whole "flat spin" thing is quite literal apparently. :)

That incident had nothing to do with any raid on Tuzla.

The two Serb MiG-29s were vectored by their ground controller to possible NATO strike packages over Serbia. Unfortunately they were detected by two USAF F-15Cs that were patrolling over Bosnia on a Deny Flight mission.

The two MiG-29s were downed by AMRAAMs right on the border at heights around 20,000ft. The wreckage of the two MiGs fell inside Bosnia territory. One pilot escaped and evaded and the other was killed in combat.

The surviving pilot, Lt Col Peric gave an interview about the incident.

Lieutenant Colonel Slobodan Peric, Mig-29 pilot, tells for the first time
how he was shot down three days after the aggression in a conflict with NATO
aviation, while his comrade Major Zoran Radisavljević was killed


We Ascended to 7000 meters from low level fast flight, passed through the
clouds, where a NATO swarm awaited us


Friday, March 26th 1999. The third day of NATOs aggression.
The mighty engines of two -29s thundered in the late afternoon on the
(military) runway of the Batajnica airfield. Two hawks from "The Knights"
squadron took off: Lieutenant Colonel Slobodan Perić Buca (39) and Major
Zoran Radisavljević (34).
They bravely went towards the black NATO phantoms. There were, it is said,
ten to one.
The resolute pilot Perić did not "live through" his second conflict with
the aggressors. His Mig-29 was hit, shortly after takeoff over the river
Drina. The experienced knight, fortunately, survived!
But he will never celebrate March 26th as his second birthday. On this day,
every year, he will light candles on the Leąće cemetery. A few minutes
before he was shot down, "The Knights" squadron lost its first pilot. His
comrade, Major Zoran Radosavljević, went to heaven (Perić and Radosavljević
were awarded the Medal for Bravery).
Lieutenant Colonel slobodan Perić talks about the drama above the river
Drina, exclusively for "Svedok", after 359 days.
Two of our colleagues who were at alert the whole day needed replacing. I
said: "I'll go. Who'll go with me?" At that moment Zoran received a call
from his sister Sneľana, with a mobile phone, who told him that Lieutenant
Colonel Iljo Arizanov is alive! We didn't have any information about him for
two days. We was shot down. Zoran said: "I'll go with you. I haven't flown
in a while. It's better that I fly by day than by night". He hadn't flown in
a Mig for several months because of an English course, and almost a year has
gone by since he last flew by night.
We got the alert signal at 16:40, through his mobile telephone. We took off
a few minutes before 17:00. We were ordered to fly north, across Banat. I
decided that we should fly extremely low, around 15-20 meters, so we'll be
harder to notice. Zoran followed me. When we were over Zrenjanin, the
guidance officer ordered: "Turn south!".
In the vicinity of Fruąka Gora, at about 200 meters, I noticed that my
radar was malfunctioning. My aircraft was unusable in combat.I couldn't fire
any missiles with a longer range than the IC-missiles. I depended on Zoran.
I told him to watch carefully and to tell me if he sees anything.
I asked the communications officer where"blue" (NATO airplane) is, which he
told us is running west from Valjevo. He gave us a distance of 14
kilometers. There were several fighters around us, which we couldn't
visually see at that distance. By what was happening, I conclude that
Zoran's radar was malfunctioning as well.
"Let's go up!" I gave the order to Zoran.
From low level flight we ascended to 7000 meters at 950 kph, and passed
through the clouds. The guidance officer told us that "blue" is in from of
us, at the same distance. I told him that we'll cross the "line" (border) if
we continue to chase it. We needed 50-60 kilometers to reach him, but we
were around 30 kilometers from the "line". We didn't get an answer!
As we neared the border, Zoran radioed me that the intruder is on our right
side. I thought he had it on radar. I ordered: "Excellent, pass, launch, I'm
behind you!" He said : "No, at spo!" That meant that we were illuminated,
that the NATO fighters have detected us. I commanded: "Break left!". We lost
them, and then resumed our old course.
The guidance officer radioed us: "It looks like someone from that group
went after you!"
I saw four white trails as they headed towards us. I thought they were
"Tomahawks" and planned to shoot them down with IC missiles. However, the
white trail soon disappeared. I knew they had fired missiles on us. I
ordered: "Run, missiles!".
He replied: "I'm running for the clouds!". Those were the last words I
heard.
I made an anti-missile maneuver, turned the plane on its back, turned left,
then right. The first missile missed me, but the second one hit my right
engine, in the hind part of the Mig. I attempted to make a break for our
territory, but the stick didn't react. My Mig started to lose altitude. Air
started streaming into the cracked cockpit. I hung by the belts in the
plane. I was at around 7000 meters. I pulled the eject handle. I fell
through the clouds so long that I froze!
When I was at around 4000 meters I saw where I was. I recognized my
birthplace, Loznica, Ugljevik, the lake... I didn't know where I was going
to land. I was afraid that the Muslims will capture me.I saw the burning
plane hit the ground and the explosion that followed. Below me- oak woods.
What if I get stuck in a tree? Some 50 meters from the ground, something
turned me for 180 degrees, towards our territory. I hit the ground with my
102 kilos, which is what I weighted then. I go the wind knocked out of me,
but luckily didn't get hurt. (Perić landed near the Serb village of Donja
Krčmina, in the Republic of Srpska, while the plane fell into a minefield on
the Muslim side of the hill, behind the village Laza).
I discarded my chute, and started uphill, with my helmet still on, towards
our territory. I was around 10 kilometers from the river Drina. I wanted to
swim across it. But, two groups of armed civilians approached me. Luckily, I
didn't make a break for the woods, where the Muslims waited. I was chased by
the Serbs and the "Turks"; both thought that I was an American!
I avoided the first group of civilians. I couldn't do so with the second,
which contained 15-20 peasants. They were very close. They walked with some
20 meter gaps between them straight at me. if I started to run, they
would've cut me down. They all had "kalashnikovs".
I decided to call out to them and yell; "Hello boys!"
They all stopped. Three or four children were with them, that ran towards
me. They started to yell: "Stop, he'll kill you all!"
"I said: "don't be afraid, I don't kill children!"
The bravest one approached me and asked for some identification. I didn't
bring them. The VJ marking on my flight-suit don't help. he asks: "Who are
you?"
What am I supposed to say!? I don't know if they're Serbs or Muslims!
"I'm one of us!" I say
"Who us?" he asks
"A Serb!" I reply
Somebody from the group says: "See the aggressor, SOB, he knows Serbian!
"The main man" asks: "What have you got in your pockets?"
I take out my gun, and he says: "Yes, our gun, CZ-99!"
The other one finds 200-300 dinars in my pocket and yells: "He is one of
us, the SOB. If he were an American, he'd have more money!" I proposed that
we go to the nearest house, so I can make a phonecall to convince them of my
identity. I was afraid that apaches" will come and pick me up. They agreed.
I didn't want to call my wife Vera in Belgrade right away. I gave them a
number of a relative across Drina, but they seemed to mix up the digits. A
medical orderly from the next village took the call. I know the man. After
much dragging, I told them who I was.
They started to apologize, to offer me food and drink. I refused
everything. I asked for transportation so I could leave as soon as possible.
I called my wife in Belgrade: "Listen Vera, I was up, now I'm down. I'm
alive and well, near to my birthplace, on the other side of the "line". I
wanted her to call my squadron and tell them I'm alive.
They gave me a tight worker's outfit, put me into a car and drove me. After
a kilometer or two, the police came by.
"Where is the pilot?" they asked
"Here he is, this one!" they point at me.
"What kind of a pilot is he?"
"One of ours, Serbian!" my rescuers reply
The policemen say: "Mother of..., it'd be better if we hadn't found him",
and leave. They all thought that they caught an American.
Soon they transferred me to another car. Guys from Bjeljina took me over.
They waited for the night to fall, for two hours they led me around the
village and showed me to their uncles, aunts... and then at the Bjeljina
bridge handed me over to "state" RS. They took me to Rača.
I called my wife again and told her to tell where I am. Soon a general
called me and asked: "Did you do anything smart?". I replied that I didn't
fire any missiles, and he retorted: "Sit there and keep quiet!"
Time went by. When the policemen in Rača saw that my back was hurting they
called our "Securityman" in Sremska Mitrovica, but couldn't reach him. They
got the duty officer, and he says to them: "Don't we have a vehicle for
something like this?"
I was brought to Batajnica by the Batajnica police. Nobody asked me
anything. I told what had happened. Soon General Ljubiąa Veličković came,
greeted me and said: "You were lucky, but Zoran Radosavljević wasn't!"
That's when I found out that my Pavo, as we used to call him, was killed.
My heart hurt! What am I to say to his mother, sister, girlfriend?! It
seemed that Zoran sensed the tragedy. That day, while we drove to the unite
he said: "See Buco, you've left something behind you, you have two children.
Now I'm sorry that I didn't marry, that I have no children. I should have
married Tanja, so at least something should remain to her."


Captitioned texts:


Grandpa killed by a German
I'm form Rađevina, near Loznica. I grew all over the ex-SFRJ, but grew up
and matured in Dalmatia. I've worked at Batajnica since 1983. My ancestors
were hearty. There would be a lot more Perićs if there weren't two world
wars. I don't have a single ancestor that, during the first world war, died
of natural causes. All of the 5 brothers died. My grandpa was killed in
1941. Some say he was in the Partisans, others in the Chetniks. But he
didn't wear a kokarda, or a star! he was killed by a german!


Pay 300 DEM (German marks)
I opened up a private shop, which brings better money than my pilot's pay.
Lieutenant Colonel, the pilot of a supersonic fighter makes around 300 DEM
in dinars, of course. At the time of the aggression, our pay was around 200
DEM. I have two children, daughter Maja and son Luka. he was born on Saint
LUka, and my grandpa was named so. I'm supposed to get a three-room
apartment, but I got a Two-room one. But I solved my habitation question. I
bought the apartment next to mine and expanded! In these hard times I can
float, because I am, as they say, resourceful. I always had the support of
my Vera. It means a lot to me!

Part of the interview from the original

http://website.lineone.net/~tommyjo/peric02.jpg

[TOMMYJO]

It was in newspaper year or two ago. That JDAM is biggest problem with selling the building :).

Well F-117 pilot is lucky son of ***** or liar.

Well after all it is possible that we only down two jets. I really dont know. As I said there isnt big difference. We lost war :( .

Relikt,
The pilot of the F-117 was Lt. Col. Zelco. He gave a further talk during 2006 of his escape and evasion and eventual rescue.

Can you explain why Serbs involved in the search for Zelco gave TV interviews after the conflict? One member of the search team involved said that he had failed in his mission when it was clear that the U.S. combat search and rescue team had picked up Zelco.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123027457

The combat search and rescue team helicopters sent into Serbia to rescue Zelco also were hit by ground fire. Non of them were shot down and the rescue of the pilot was accomplished.

Lt. Col. Stephan J. Laushine who led both rescue missions into Serbia to
rescue the pilots of the two aircraft shot down during Operation Allied
Force (F-117A, serial 82-806 and F-16CG, serial 88-0550) revealed during a
TV interview that all three choppers (MH-53 and MH-60s) were hit by small
arms fire during the mission. Two took hits to the rotors and another took a
hit in the aft cabin section. The MH-60G 'Pave Hawk' that picked up the F-16
pilot sustained significant damage as revealed by the following:

16th Special Operations Wing Public Affairs quote

'The MH-60G dispatched to pick up the downed pilot sustained significant
damage from small arms fire'

Details of the rescue of Lt. Col. Zelko

http://www.afa.org/magazine/dec2006/1206vega.asp

Details of the F-16CG pilot rescued inside Serbia. He was also rescued by the team again led by Lt. Col. Laushine who also rescued the F-117 pilot.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=44549

No aircrew Prisoners of War. I'll let you continue with your dreams of secret deals to repatriate downed NATO aircrew and bombed wrecks within Serbia.

[Vladimir80]

Well after all it is possible that we only down two jets. I really dont know. As I said there isnt big difference. We lost war :( .

Don't be down... it wasn't like it was a fair fight. You did shoot down the invincible stealth fighter... :laugh4:

[Shades of Grey]

Don't be down... it wasn't like it was a fair fight. You did shoot down the invincible stealth fighter... :laugh4:

70's technology that was never a fighter. Should have been called the A-117. :)

Good job on the part of the Serbian SA-3 crew, though. Very brave and vigilant for them to stand at their posts and do their very best knowing that the most advanced Air to Surface weapons in the world were aimed at them. The SA-3 isn't exactly mobile, so their locations were well known. During my time fighting with or talking to Serbian military, I found them to be a very professional armed force, a far cry from the hillbillies that we're fighting elsewhere today and some of the Serbians that post on this forum.

[serb08]

typical albanian everybody knows you arnt europeans.

[Mxm]

typical albanian everybody knows you arnt europeans.

we didnt came from russia gipsie go back there

[gisse]

Why you always talks to Serbs gypsies?Gipsy's are from India and Serbs come long time ago IV century to Balkan from Ural.

I don't know do you try to say something bad with that but then i am telling to you that you are Nigerian :p

Serbian air force is small. We have old planes but i hope is some close future we will have better.

About war 1999. Till that war i didn't know that Albania have army?

While i was in Army in 2001 i was in unit which was during war near border with Albania. They had to fight with Shiptars which have try to get in Serbia from Albania. Problem was in that that they was on top of hill and Shiptars was down. What do you think how many Shiptars survived?In unit they had 3 wounded from NATO planes and bombs.

If they give independence to Kosovo i suggest that we build big wall around it and fill it with water.

[azemi]

Why you always talks to Serbs gypsies?Gipsy's are from India and Serbs come long time ago IV century to Balkan from Ural.

I don't know do you try to say something bad with that but then i am telling to you that you are Nigerian :p

Serbian air force is small. We have old planes but i hope is some close future we will have better.

About war 1999. Till that war i didn't know that Albania have army?

While i was in Army in 2001 i was in unit which was during war near border with Albania. They had to fight with Shiptars which have try to get in Serbia from Albania. Problem was in that that they was on top of hill and Shiptars was down. What do you think how many Shiptars survived?In unit they had 3 wounded from NATO planes and bombs.

If they give independence to Kosovo i suggest that we build big wall around it and fill it with water.
haha yes thats why in koshare you got your *** kicked and you where on an freaking hill hahaha 400 dog serb soldiers died there ahahhaah the best day of mine life shka gipsie you came from russia now go back there gipsie

[gisse]

I am impressed with speed you replayed, that was almost 1 min :)

I like it, that mean that you care for us, that is love :)

We still have paperes in which is written that Kosovo is part of Serbia and in 1000 years that papers will be valid but your wont :p

Check wikipedia when you come there ;P

I love you guys, is someone pay you for posting here

[attitude]

One more instance of flaming in this thread will result in it being closed

[gisse]

Sorry, i just answered on his quick replay :)

Well, here we talk about Serbian AIR Force. I don't know exactly what have left after 1999 but i have noticed that air flight are rear. Earlier over my house planes where fly every day and you could see them but now.....

[azemi]

Sorry, i just answered on his quick replay :)

Well, here we talk about Serbian AIR Force. I don't know exactly what have left after 1999 but i have noticed that air flight are rear. Earlier over my house planes where fly every day and you could see them but now.....

well duuh you dont have much left and besides that m8 you can check it up you dont have money to buy fuel no offense attitude but its the trueth you can check that in google or something like that

[gisse]

We don't need to buy that, at least Serbia control its territory except Kosovo. :p

I don't won't this thread to be closed so i wont answer any more on provocations.

[azemi]

We don't need to buy that, at least Serbia control its territory except Kosovo. :p

I don't won't this thread to be closed so i wont answer any more on provocations.

and what albania doesnt?? your not an smart person are you compare the attack helicopters ,new navy ships,leopards 1 m6o leopard 2,f4s,f5s.f16s to your junk m84 super gabel4 migs and the only good thing well good compared to the rest of the junk you have are 3 mig 29s lol the only ones

[gisse]

5 Mig 29, and i need to correct you, during Gulf War Kuvajt M-84 was in better shape then Abrams M-1.You can check that. I see that Albania is super power with 5 tanks so i wont say anything about that.

Serbian AIR force right now is in period of modernization after 10 years of war and economical sanctions. If i remember good ex Yugoslavia was leading country in Air and Army in Europe and lot of that was left in Serbia so i don't wont to compare Army's which cant be compared.

[azemi]

5 Mig 29, and i need to correct you, during Gulf War Kuvajt M-84 was in better shape then Abrams M-1.You can check that. I see that Albania is super power with 5 tanks so i wont say anything about that.

Serbian AIR force right now is in period of modernization after 10 years of war and economical sanctions. If i remember good ex Yugoslavia was leading country in Air and Army in Europe and lot of that was left in Serbia so i don't wont to compare Army's which cant be compared.

well 3 different type of tanks and 3 different types of airplanes + attackhelicopters


tanks and attackhelicopters will get bought in 2008
airplanes in 2010


btw our airdefence can shoot down each of your airplanes so your airforce isnt much

[gisse]

Can i please report you to Admins for miss use of thread and making conflict?

Can some Admin remove last couple messages posted by me and this guy?simply not to spoil nice Thread.

And i have just read, Batajnica air strip is opened again for air flights, that is way i didn't heard airplanes for some time :)

[gisse]

Any who want to check number of Serbian air force can go to official web page of Serbian Army and if don't believe can go to Google Earth to count it :)

[Kosovo Knight]

No, our military (Yugoslav army - Vojska Jugoslavije VJ) didn't fought in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. We fought only at Kosovo and Presevo valley. in Kosovo we have almoust defeat terrorists, but then the NATO aggresion campage started. There won't be any problems in Vojvodina, becouse Serbs are there majority, and Hungarans arn't aggresive like Albanians (my neighbor is Hungarian and I don't live in Vojvodina).

[gisse]

ex-yugoslavs were leaders in spending and wasting money. since you are proud of your military , just few things, your military fought slovenians, croats bosnians , kosovo albanians and finally you thought you can defeat NATO. In nutshell you lost all of them and still carried out a genocide in bosnia. In battles with nato your military did not kill a single enemy ...

thsese results tell more then your demagogy. as long as you listen your failed politicians , you , we , and rest of balkan will have serious problems.

your best chance is cedomir jovanovic man, more you vote for nationalism and expansionism more land you loose. after you loose Kosovo , next one will be Vojvodina ...


This is not part of Serbian AIR Force, please open new thread if you want to talk about that

I am proud on my Army, Serbia was one of first army's in world which had air force

[Kosovo Knight]

Yea, we have a long aviation history.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Saricavion.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/Mihajlo_Petrovic.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1d/Blerio-11-2-Oluj.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Mors_farman_plane.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Serbianair_mechanic.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ec/Prvasrpesk1928.jpg

[Kosovo Knight]

For next two years, Serbian Air Froce have a prlan for:

-modernization of 5 MiG-29's (almoust finished)
-modernization of two Mi-24's (this year)
-modernization of five Mi-8/17's (this year)
-modernization of one An-26 (this year)
-modernizatio of Kub and Neva Air Defense systems
-replaceing old Utva 75 with new Lasta 95
- until 2014 geting 20 new multirole fighters (to replace MiG-21)
- geting 15-18 new transport helicopters (to replace Mi-8's)
-modernization of G-4's to G-4M standard
- geting 3-5 new cargo aircrafts (to replace An-26's and An-2's)

THose are plans. How would I like to see in Serbian Air force in 2015:

Organization:

240th Air Base Batajnica
-101st fighter squadron - 16x JAS-39C/D ore MiG-29M2
-252th aviation squadron - 10x Lasta 95 and 10x G-4M
-138th transport squadron - 4x C-27J, 10 Mi-171Sh and 2x Gazelle

98th Air base Kraljevo and Niš
-241th fighter-bomber squadron - 16x JAS-39C/D
-714th anti-tank helicopter squadron - 2x Mi-28N, 4x Mi-35P, 10 Gazelle
-119th transport helicopter squadron - 16x Mi-171Sh

250th Air Defense Brigade - S-300

[gisse]

For next two years, Serbian Air Froce have a prlan for:

-modernization of 5 MiG-29's (almoust finished)
-modernization of two Mi-24's (this year)
-modernization of five Mi-8/17's (this year)
-modernization of one An-26 (this year)
-modernizatio of Kub and Neva Air Defense systems
-replaceing old Utva 75 with new Lasta 95
- until 2014 geting 20 new multirole fighters (to replace MiG-21)
- geting 15-18 new transport helicopters (to replace Mi-8's)
-modernization of G-4's to G-4M standard
- geting 3-5 new cargo aircrafts (to replace An-26's and An-2's)

THose are plans. How would I like to see in Serbian Air force in 2015:

Organization:

240th Air Base Batajnica
-101st fighter squadron - 16x JAS-39C/D ore MiG-29M2
-252th aviation squadron - 10x Lasta 95 and 10x G-4M
-138th transport squadron - 4x C-27J, 10 Mi-171Sh and 2x Gazelle

98th Air base Kraljevo and Niš
-241th fighter-bomber squadron - 16x JAS-39C/D
-714th anti-tank helicopter squadron - 2x Mi-28N, 4x Mi-35P, 10 Gazelle
-119th transport helicopter squadron - 16x Mi-171Sh

250th Air Defense Brigade - S-300


I think that they won't buy all that that fast but it would be nice :)

[spirit]

Hi all
This is nice thread, lets try to keep it that way :laugh1:
This should be thread where we post photos of Serbian air force and give info about it!!!
Please, if you don’t have anything to ask... just don’t, this is not thread about politics, SO DONT TALK ABOUT IT!!!!

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i41/Dejan_SCG/da2/untitled3.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i41/Dejan_SCG/da2/untitled2.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i41/Dejan_SCG/da2/untitled4.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i41/Dejan_SCG/da2/untitled-4.jpg

Some photos of modernized Serbian MiG-29 getting new camo (Batajnica airbase)

Ајде видећу са администратором да отвори Serbian army thread

[Kosovo Knight]

http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/06_06.jpg
http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/10_05.jpg
http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/12_07.jpg
http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/13_05.jpg
http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/14_03.jpg
http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/15_01.jpg
http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/18_06.jpg
http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/19_06.jpg
http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/15_09.jpg
http://www.mod.gov.yu/PHPFotogalerija/galerija/arhiva/13_03.jpg

Some photos of modernized Serbian MiG-29 getting new camo (Batajnica airbase)

Ајде видећу са администратором да отвори Serbian army thread

Лепо звучи, али већ постоји тема, само је име мало хммм (меано српски и енглески, није привлачно за особе друге националности), а и није "лепљива" (као нпр. Војска Малезије или Војска БиХ) ;)

Sorry for Serbian.

[Kosovo Knight]

Today, on may 21st, at 11 hours, the plane of Serbia Air Force Orao J-22,registarion code 25114, from the 98.aviation base Ladjevci, on regular training flight, has crashed in region of village of Baranda. Aircraft was flown by the pilot Tomas Janik, IV category flight teacher, commander of 2. aviation departments 241. Squadron which has saved himself by pushing the ejection button and landing with light injuries.

The plane crashed from about fifty meters from the Baranda-Sakule road, and pilot, about one kilometer away from the aircraft in the marshy land. Within less than half an hour on the face of the posts came Gazelle from Batajnica airport and locate him, and later an Mi-8 from Nis transported him on a helicopter to MMA (VMA). As the commander of Air force, General Katanić said at a press conference for the media, very much assisted in the first moments medical workers from Opova.
Later in the face of the posts came two more helicopters as well as a commission formed to establish the cause of the accident is still on the ground.

(sorry for bad translate)


http://www.airserbia.com/images/news/2008/05_orao_j22_25114.jpg
This was that aircraft beafore the crash.
:(

Thanks god that pilot is ok.

[spirit]

Dam, Im glad that pilot is ok and I can’t wait to see why did this aircraft crash!!!
SAF aircraft are kept in good condition, good maintenance... but what can you do, things like this just happen from time to time...

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i41/Dejan_SCG/da2/untitled-5.jpg
Last photo of this aircraft

[Kosovo Knight]

Maby abird has got in to aircrafts engine.

[spirit]

Who knows, from what I saw on TV and newspapers, the aircraft went faster then Mach 1 (supersonic) when it hit the ground!!!
And they where flying in formation of two, so his wingman saw what happened...

[Kosovo Knight]

News......

SERBIAN AND ROMANIAN AIR FORCE TO CONDUCT A JOINT EXERCISE


The first expert conference preceding the joint exercise of Serbian and Romanian Air Forces was held in Air Force Command today. The exercise titled “The operation of following, interception, identification and grounding of a hijacked air craft” should be conducted in October and it will be preceded by four expert meetings of the two armies. The four member delegation of the Romanian Air Force was led by Lt. Col. Jakob Marjan.

The Chief of SAF Air Force Command Brigade General Jovica Draganic in his address to foreign guests stressed the importance of bilateral military cooperation of Serbia and Romania, adding that the upcoming exercise should contribute to exchange of experience and strengthening the bonds between the two countries.


The exercise should encompass coordinated activities of operation centers of Serbian and Romanian Air Forces, of fighter aviation units, VOJIN, artillery-missile units with a possibility of deploying Special Units.
http://www.vojska.mod.gov.yu/cir/vesti/images/novembar2007/080526_komanda_vazduhoplovstva_rumuni-02.jpg

[spirit]

He he I have some feeling that Bulgaria fell out of the picture... if the didn’t recognize "non-existing state of Kosovo"... Who cares about them, Romanian has that privilege to have joint exercises whit us :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Kosovo Knight]

What do you think, what kind of exercise will be? It would be wery nice to see our and Romanian Migs on sky.

[spirit]

It will probably be something like last joint exercise, only this time whiteout Bulgaria. There will probably be a display of Special Forces, and air force of both countries. Will only see Serbian MiG-29's and possibly Romanian F-16...

[RH53D_AMCM]

On the J-22 crash: Glad the pilot go out. Hope his injuries will not keep him from returning to flying status. I have seen how grumpy pilots can get when they have been grounded temporaily or long-term.

The J-22 has a fairly good service record, does it not? Aircraft losses can occur for the simplest or the most complex of reasons.