Iran's seamine-capacitys?

[Falco]

since some time with a friend i concerned about a theoretical conflict in the gulf region, and which weapon systems would be used there.
and in any case(x vs. iran) in our scenario, iran is mining the strait of hormuz.

how realistic is this?
and much more important:
what kind of seamine-capacitys does iran actually have to do that?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Strait_of_Hormuz.jpg
Strait of Hormuz

[Zraver]

Iran has the second or largest sea mine arsenal in the world with the US sayign she has 5000 of them. She has upto 12 undersea platforms to use as mine layers, plus numerous surface vessels, but conversly very limited ability to sweep for mines.

Her ace in the hole is the RM-53 Rocket mine. Depending on which version of this mine they have just a half dozen of these mines emplaced could close the straits to tanker traffic for days. Rocket mines are designed for deeper water up to 200m with older models, but the newer versions can go as deep as 400m and have a 2-3km cross range ability. Not really designed for shallow water their sophistication and bottom hugging nature still makes them hard to sweep and remove.

[Falco]

Iran has the second or largest sea mine arsenal in the world with the US sayign she has 5000 of them. She has upto 12 undersea platforms to use as mine layers, plus numerous surface vessels, but conversly very limited ability to sweep for mines.

wow!
didnt know that.
do you have any numbers? ;)



Her ace in the hole is the RM-53 Rocket mine.
i heared about that thing. i think sweden has something similar, not sure.

[Zraver]

I meant to say second or third largest behind Russia and China but you get my drift. They have an estimated 5000 sea mines. Not all of these are modern, but in the confined waters of the gulf even drifting contact mines are a threat.

[jamsadeghi]

Now because i had never considered Irans sea mine ability (didnt really know we had one!) how are their positions controlled? Are they self-propelled or do they require something to physically put them into place?

[Zraver]

All mines need to be emplaced before use especially in the narrow shallow waters of the gulf. Iran has been building its mine laying capability since the end of the Iran-Iraq war. It does not have a lot of what are considered "modern' systems but it has a lot of systems that can do the job in some way and quantity has a quality all its own. Iran's best mine layers are its subs.

Iran seems to be betting that a day one surge will put to many targets into the area for the US to get them all and that at least some mines will be deployed. Even if the US manages to sink every mine carrying vessel Iran has the Straits will be closed for days while sweepers make sure.

In a war the US has to clear Abus Musa and other near by islands not just to stop missile or fast boat attacks on shipping, but to give the minesweepers cover as they do their delicate work.

Iran's biggest problem is time. Global oil reserves already in the market and oil in transit can last about 2 weeks to a month. If Iran does not manage to get the straits blocked via sunken vessels in the shipping lanes very early on then her defeat is only a matter of time.

[jamsadeghi]

All mines need to be emplaced before use especially in the narrow shallow waters of the gulf. Iran has been building its mine laying capability since the end of the Iran-Iraq war. It does not have a lot of what are considered "modern' systems but it has a lot of systems that can do the job in some way and quantity has a quality all its own. Iran's best mine layers are its subs.

Iran seems to be betting that a day one surge will put to many targets into the area for the US to get them all and that at least some mines will be deployed. Even if the US manages to sink every mine carrying vessel Iran has the Straits will be closed for days while sweepers make sure.

In a war the US has to clear Abus Musa and other near by islands not just to stop missile or fast boat attacks on shipping, but to give the minesweepers cover as they do their delicate work.

Iran's biggest problem is time. Global oil reserves already in the market and oil in transit can last about 2 weeks to a month. If Iran does not manage to get the straits blocked via sunken vessels in the shipping lanes very early on then her defeat is only a matter of time.

I see. So again, a first strike would probably be the best option for Iran.

Another question about the mines though. Does iran change the positions of their fields? I would hope so since it may be possible to avoid them if the US knows where they are...

[Zraver]

Belts not feilds, at sea mines are laid in belts.

Iran does not keep active belts in use it is to risky. Generally sea mines do not have on off switches once they are emplaced they are lethal. Plus Iran doe snot need active belts. Looking at a map the area has a few self evident choke points

Iran for obvious reasons will seak to use the area where the shipping lanes pass through their own waters. Besides being close to home the area is very shallow leaving very little room for ships to manuver. The triangle of death will have the following sides

Western tip- Abu Musa
Northern Tip- Jazireh-ye Sirri
Southern Tip- Tund Al Kubra

After that choke point is the Straits of Hormuz proper here the shipping lanes are fairly wide and deep but Iran proper is close enough for large AShM. But at this location the advantage begins to favor the USN because it is closer to deeper water.

There will also likely be some action in or near Omani waters and the Gulf of Oman but this is a lot closer to open deep water and gives the USN a decided advantage

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iran_strait_of_hormuz_2004.jpg

[Vladimir80]

Belts not feilds, at sea mines are laid in belts.

That is ridiculous... a belt is a half arsed way to catch a ship and is not how it is done. They are laid at choke points the same as land warfare. Of course you wouldn't know much about that.

[Zraver]

That is ridiculous... a belt is a half arsed way to catch a ship and is not how it is done. They are laid at choke points the same as land warfare. Of course you wouldn't know much about that.

Wow, thanks for being so stupid. what do you call a group of mines at sea? Answer- A mine belt. A mine belt like a mine field is not a construct with precise measurements but instead represents the area denied use via the mines real or suspected. Standard employment methods are to have mutliple belts set up with channels between them for patrols. During the Cold War the Soviets used a 5 belt system. In the Persian Gulf such extensive employment is neither needed nor practical. With the shipping lanes so narrow and shallow the tanker traffic can be stopped by just the threat of a few emplaced mines. Iran also still has an extensive drift mine capability.

I know more about warfare of any type than you do, but then unlike you I actually served in uniform. You were never in uniform and never saw combat. I wish I could do a whois on your IP and expose you for the fraud you are.

You never ever provide details, units, locations or time line that can be double checked, nor do you provide any info one what you did other than to say you had friends blown up before your very eyes in Dagestan. Hell you don't even have a rudimentary grasp of small unit tactics, let alone maneuver warfare theory. You also buy every pro-Russia claim hook line and sinker without stopping to evaluate it. If you had ever served you would know just how far apart the claims made by Russia are from the truth.

[Vladimir80]

Wow, thanks for being so stupid. what do you call a group of mines at sea? Answer- A mine belt.

You describe yourself... I call what you name a mine belt the same as the rest of the world... a MINE FIELD. A belt is only one string of a mine field. One string doesn't have much chance in hell of catching a passing ship which is why a MINE FIELD is scatter layered for the greatest probablity of a hit which is why your answer is so absurd. :sorry3:

[Zraver]

You describe yourself... I call what you name a mine belt the same as the rest of the world... a MINE FIELD. A belt is only one string of a mine field. One string doesn't have much chance in hell of catching a passing ship which is why a MINE FIELD is scatter layered for the greatest probablity of a hit which is why your answer is so absurd. :sorry3:


At sea mines are deployed in belts. The sea does not have feilds. A naval mine belt is not a linear string of mines but an area covered by mines.

[Vladimir80]

At sea mines are deployed in belts. The sea does not have feilds. A naval mine belt is not a linear string of mines but an area covered by mines.

Exactly... that's why it is called a field... not a belt. I guess you love proving yourself wrong... saves me the trouble anyway.

[Zraver]

Special credit is due to Captain Walter Krah, Chief of the Auxiliary Mine-Flotilla, who profited by much practical experience and was successful in his efforts to avert unnecessary losses in his flotilla. It was the duty of the barrier-breaker group to protect the navigation of certain channels, chiefly those where our minelaying divisions had been at work, and to make sure that no mines had been laid by the enemy in the interval. The activity of our minelayers could not be entirely concealed from the enemy. When they were working in the inner section of the Bight, the enemy submarines had every opportunity for their observations, and the farther the mine belt was pushed out in the North Sea the nearer it drew to the area of English observation planes. The English were in advance of us with the Curtis plane, a hydroplane which, even with a considerable sea running, was able to keep on the water and so husband its strength

Thats an excerpt from
Germany's High Sea Fleet in the World War by Admiral Scheer written in 1919 in Weimar Germany.

http://www.richthofen.com/scheer/scheer00.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Scheer

I think I feelpretty safe using the same terminology as a famous naval tactician who out ofught the British at Jutland

[Vladimir80]

I think I feelpretty safe using the same terminology as a famous naval tactician who out ofught the British at Jutland

Do you want me to post the MILLIONS of excerpts that post date the ANCIENT battle of Jutland refering to it as a MINE FIELD... lame :tired1_24:

The fact you had to dig that far back to find reference to it is laughable... :lol3:

[Zraver]

I didn't have to dig that far back, but why don;t you provide a credible refrence that calls mines at sea a mine feild

[Vladimir80]

I didn't have to dig that far back, but why don;t you provide a credible refrence that calls mines at sea a mine feild

How about the NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL...

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA250093

How about the USN...

http://www.c7f.navy.mil/news/2004/march/3.htm

I guess they don't know what they're talking about the same as F-22 pilots.

Keep squirming...:roflmao3:

[Zraver]

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10176&page=134



used the terms (minefeild, mine belt, and mine barrier) inter changeably.

Naval Mine Warfare: Operational and Technical Challenges for Naval Forces (2001)

The intermediate mine barrier consists of five mine belts placed 7 to 9 nautical miles from shore, and, again, in 40 to 200 ft of water. Each belt is 5 nautical miles long and 1 nautical mile deep. The first two mine belts consist of two rows totaling 150 MKB moored contact mines spaced 125 yd apart, and one row of 50 KMD II 500 bottom influence mines spaced 150 to 200 yd apart. Two other mine belts consist of a total of 80 MYAM moored contact mines in two rows, and one row of 40 KMD II 500 bottom influence mines, all spaced 250 yd apart. The fifth belt consists of 250 MKB moored contact mines in three rows with mines spaced at 120-yd intervals.

compared to-

Perimeter Minefield

The seaward mine barrier is placed approximately 50 nautical miles from shore, and in 40 to 200 ft of water. The distance from shore may vary depending on bathymetry and the range of covering fire. The perimeter minefield is 25 nautical miles in length and 0.5 nautical miles deep. It consists of one row of 500 MKB moored contact mines and two rows of 200 KMD II-1000 bottom influence mines with spacing of 150 to 200 yd spacing between mines to prevent countermining, i.e., one mine detonation causing adjacent mines to detonate

the paper also adds the term mine barrier.

[Vladimir80]

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10176&page=134



used the terms (minefeild, mine belt, and mine barrier) inter changeably.

Naval Mine Warfare: Operational and Technical Challenges for Naval Forces (2001)

The intermediate mine barrier consists of five mine belts placed 7 to 9 nautical miles from shore, and, again, in 40 to 200 ft of water. Each belt is 5 nautical miles long and 1 nautical mile deep. The first two mine belts consist of two rows totaling 150 MKB moored contact mines spaced 125 yd apart, and one row of 50 KMD II 500 bottom influence mines spaced 150 to 200 yd apart. Two other mine belts consist of a total of 80 MYAM moored contact mines in two rows, and one row of 40 KMD II 500 bottom influence mines, all spaced 250 yd apart. The fifth belt consists of 250 MKB moored contact mines in three rows with mines spaced at 120-yd intervals.

compared to-

Perimeter Minefield

The seaward mine barrier is placed approximately 50 nautical miles from shore, and in 40 to 200 ft of water. The distance from shore may vary depending on bathymetry and the range of covering fire. The perimeter minefield is 25 nautical miles in length and 0.5 nautical miles deep. It consists of one row of 500 MKB moored contact mines and two rows of 200 KMD II-1000 bottom influence mines with spacing of 150 to 200 yd spacing between mines to prevent countermining, i.e., one mine detonation causing adjacent mines to detonate

the paper also adds the term mine barrier.

Again your source proves me right... it takes several mine belts to make up a mine field. This concept is not hard to grasp especially when your source says it as plain as day. Maybe you have a reading comprehension problem... who knows.http://www.xtrememass.com/forum/images/smilies/1203/738ughdunno.gif

[Zraver]

Mine barrier

example 1 (called a mine feild) LxWxR(rows) no mention of belts= 25 nautical miles in length and 0.5 nautical miles deep. It consists of one row of 500 MKB moored contact mines and two rows of 200 KMD II-1000 bottom influence mines with spacing of 150 to 200 yd spacing between mines to prevent countermining

Example 2 Mine belt= LxWxR Each belt is 5 nautical miles long and 1 nautical mile deep. The first two mine belts consist of two rows totaling 150 MKB moored contact mines spaced 125 yd apart, and one row of 50 KMD II 500 bottom influence mines spaced 150 to 200 yd apart

What do they each have in common 3 rows of mines in a roughly rectangular box spaced apart to avoid counter mining.

Your claim that a naval mine belt is a single row is obviously false.

as usual I win.

[Zraver]

That is ridiculous... a belt is a half arsed way to catch a ship and is not how it is done. They are laid at choke points the same as land warfare. Of course you wouldn't know much about that.

Your the fool.

BTW mines are not just laid at choke points on the land but are used for all manner of area denial. If you had ever worn a uniform you'd have known that.

[Vladimir80]

Your claim that a naval mine belt is a single row is obviously false.

as usual I win.

I never claimed that... I said a mine belt is not a mine field and it isn't.

As usual you prove your ignorance.

[Vladimir80]

Your the fool.

BTW mines are not just laid at choke points on the land but are used for all manner of area denial. If you had ever worn a uniform you'd have known that.

Whose the fool?

When you have a limited number of mines you place them in the area of most likely approach. That is basic 101... you never have worn a uniform. You're not even on the same level so quit pretending. You dishonor all those who have and it is illegal in your country under the Stolen Valor Act.

[Zraver]

Your the wanna be not me. I served and served proudly and have made zero claims that are not true. Your the wanna be combat vet who is probably just a high school kid who has never heard anything louder than a fire cracker. Hell your not even Russian but American.

As to employment of mines of which you know so little. Mines are a tool and you will use them to achieve the mission. In the case of a ambush or defensive line you want to use them to create and define kill boxes. However they can also be readily used to deny a flank, be placed forward to force the enemy to react before he hits the MLR etc.

[Vladimir80]

As to employment of mines of which you know so little. Mines are a tool and you will use them to achieve the mission. In the case of a ambush or defensive line you want to use them to create and define kill boxes. However they can also be readily used to deny a flank, be placed forward to force the enemy to react before he hits the MLR etc.

That may be how you do it in your computer game but we don't have such luxery in the real world. We place them where we either have few defenders or at choke points to get the maximum effect. If you try some elaborate plan with limited resources you waste what you have. Americans don't know how to use mine fields as they just spend their time clearing them. I doubt if there is anyone in the US Army who remembers how to lay one.

[Behrooz Boonabi]

Hell your not even Russian but American.



He isn't in "America".

[Zraver]

That may be how you do it in your computer game but we don't have such luxery in the real world. We place them where we either have few defenders or at choke points to get the maximum effect. If you try some elaborate plan with limited resources you waste what you have. Americans don't know how to use mine fields as they just spend their time clearing them. I doubt if there is anyone in the US Army who remembers how to lay one.

What won't you copy, you said choke points, I brought up using them to refuse a flank ( the place where you have the least mount of troops) and so you magically add a location.

I know more about mines or anything ground combat related than you ever will.

He isn't in "America".

He might not be in America but his syntax, grammar, idioms, spelling, and knowledge base all use American English. The chances of a foreign born person learning American English so flawlessly is damn near nil. Our language is a disaster being a primarily German tongue forced to follow Latin rules and flavored by 200 years of what can best be described as yankeeisms.

[Vladimir80]

I know more about mines or anything ground combat related than you ever will.

What would a tanker know about mine laying who has never seen combat and never seen a mine field laid? A REAL tanker would admit it and keep their mouth shut. For some reason you seek attention to want to be called "expert" on an internet board. I don't seek such glorification. I was just a soldier doing my job who seeks no recognition from anyone to be called "expert".

He might not be in America but his syntax, grammar, idioms, spelling, and knowledge base all use American English. The chances of a foreign born person learning American English so flawlessly is damn near nil.

You may not realize the influence America has in the world from movies, music, television and my favorite topic of defence but it is wide and you pick up a few things. Or maybe non-Americans are just so stupid we have a "nil chance" of learning languages and the lingo. Unlike your country's need to be mono-lingual we endorse bilingualism.
:sorry3:

[Zraver]

What would a tanker know about mine laying who has never seen combat and never seen a mine field laid? A REAL tanker would admit it and keep their mouth shut. For some reason you seek attention to want to be called "expert" on an internet board. I don't seek such glorification. I was just a soldier doing my job who seeks no recognition from anyone to be called "expert".

Mines are of critical importance to tankers. While a normal AT mine can't really kill the crew (the blast can break bones) but tilt rod mines can reach the crew compartment. You never served.



You may not realize the influence America has in the world from movies, music, television and my favorite topic of defence but it is wide and you pick up a few things. Or maybe non-Americans are just so stupid we have a "nil chance" of learning languages and the lingo. Unlike your country's need to be mono-lingual we endorse bilingualism.
:sorry3:

I go to school with dozens of exchange students and work in the writing center so I know where for I speak, your American.

[Vladimir80]

Mines are of critical importance to tankers. While a normal AT mine can't really kill the crew (the blast can break bones) but tilt rod mines can reach the crew compartment. You never served.

That doesn't have a thing to do with knowing how to properly employ them as it has nothing to do with a tankers job which reveals your lie.

I go to school with dozens of exchange students and work in the writing center so I know where for I speak, your American.

You can't stand to be bested by a Russian so you have to call me American to excuse your defeat... how racist. :no4:

[DehdaR]

To Zraver.

Me like mother Russia, now me is Russian because me sound like a communist and not like intelligent Americans.

I didn’t realise what an idiot you were before now. Sorry!

[Zraver]

That doesn't have a thing to do with knowing how to properly employ them as it has nothing to do with a tankers job which reveals your lie.

once again you reveal your ignorance. How are you supposed to know what to look for, unless you know how they are emplaced and the terrain and visual cues that indicate a minefield.



You can't stand to be bested by a Russian so you have to call me American to excuse your defeat... how racist. :no4:

Your not Russian, if a real Russian wants to best me, they can give it their best shot. Although I must confess I didn't know this was a competition. Whats the prize? if it's worth something I might compete, so far all I've done is poke the troll for fun.

To Zraver.

Me like mother Russia, now me is Russian because me sound like a communist and not like intelligent Americans.

I didn’t realise what an idiot you were before now. Sorry!

You should be more offended that some one with such a low IQ is claiming to represent Russia.

[Vladimir80]

I must confess I didn't know this was a competition. Whats the prize? if it's worth something I might compete

You tell me... you're the one saying you won twice in the last 24 hours. :worried2:


As usal I win.

as usual I win.

You should be more offended that some one with such a low IQ is claiming to represent Russia.

More ad hominem racist attacks because you don't have anything intelligent to say... pathetic.

[Zraver]

Y

More ad hominem racist attacks because you don't have anything intelligent to say... pathetic.

talk about the pot calling the kettle black

[mustavaris]

To Zraver.

Me like mother Russia, now me is Russian because me sound like a communist and not like intelligent Americans.

I didn’t realise what an idiot you were before now. Sorry!

Nah, Zraver is not an idiot, he just heats up every now and then as he is under attack from all sides.

Crappy to see though that he has probably earned an infriction or two with some of his newer posts..

[mustavaris]

He might not be in America but his syntax, grammar, idioms, spelling, and knowledge base all use American English. The chances of a foreign born person learning American English so flawlessly is damn near nil. Our language is a disaster being a primarily German tongue forced to follow Latin rules and flavored by 200 years of what can best be described as yankeeisms.

Had I paid attention to grammary I could write English with such level of skill that you could never ever notice that I am not a native speaker. English is not that hard. Only Swedish is easier..

In 1998 I used 2 hours to study the grammary before the national exams from which I got the second highest mark, my points were a lot higher (>20%) than the average native speaker gets when (s)he takes our national test. And I do not think that I am good at English.

And due to some wicked reason, Europeans are taught a lot of American English.

[and by the way, the mistakes Vladimir does while using English are pretty Russian and show that he uses Russian grammary when making those mistakes...]

[DehdaR]

Even if Vladimir80 is an American it shouldn't matter. The content of his posts should be more important than his nationality.

[mustavaris]

Even if Vladimir80 is an American it shouldn't matter. The content of his posts should be more important than his nationality.

Yes and no.

If he has lied about his service in uniform and about his nationality, it has an effect on his credibility.

But when judging online posts, the nationality and other factors are irrelevant, it is the content that matters.

[Vladimir80]

Even if Vladimir80 is an American

If Vladi was American he would run to nearest Russian Embassy, seek political asylum from oppresive dictator government, and take long hot shower.

[DehdaR]

If Vladi was American he would run to nearest Russian Embassy, seek political asylum from oppresive dictator government, and take long hot shower.

It really doesn't matter... Your credibility doesn't affect my opinion of what you write or say.

Have you ever noticed how Sinosphere apologises for being bad at English in some posts and how bulletproof her grammar is in other posts? I really don't mind if the person behind that profile is a Yankee, because credibility on the Internet means nothing to me.

We used to have a member who pretended to be a retired F-18 pilot. He eventually got caught and permanently banned for his lies. I think the decision to ban him was harsh because at the end of the day, we come here to share opinions and news... not to judge each other. If some people like to or fell the need to pretend they're something they're not, let them waste their time.

[mustavaris]

The basic assumption must be that everyone is honest, Internet is just another way of communication. Part time liars are still liars.

[Zraver]

Nope no infractions recently, and yes I do get heated when some one attacks my personal history in an ad hominem move to deflect attention away form thier own arguments shortcomings.

If I wanted to "pretend' to a military record I could simply not reveal details (like Vlad) or give myself a service jacket of easily tracked and popular units from a division without as much controversy as the 2AD. I have been forthright and honest on this board about everything. Honesty and honest living is a key part of how I stay clean and off drugs. The mere fact that I am so open about my past should say something in an of it self.

Vlad keeps looking for some sort of proof that I never served, but the simple and very honest fact is that I did serve. My mother saigned the papers when i was 17 and I went in through the Seattle MEPS, was sent to Ft Knox for OSUT training as a 19E as a member 1HHC 1/803 Armor Bn 81st Inf Bgs(WAANG), 9th ID. After ODS we retrained as 19K making us 19X then the 1/803 was deactivated and absorbed by 1/303 but I went active where I was sent back to Ft Knox as part of the cadre of the 1st ATB before being reassigned to III corps. The rest of the story is already well known.

I don't know if anyone has a way to track this info or double check it but the 2nd Brigade of the 2nd Armor did a rotation at NTC just before Christmas in 1994. Our Tower air flight (known by the popular euphemism Circle X airlines) arrived back at West Ft Hood on Christmas Eve. A seargent in my Battalion invited me over for Christmas dinner and I met and started dating his daughter, we would marry on march 22 1995 and my son Joshua would be born January 15, 1996.

[Vladimir80]

It really doesn't matter... Your credibility doesn't affect my opinion of what you write or say.

Have you ever noticed how Sinosphere apologises for being bad at English in some posts and how bulletproof her grammar is in other posts? I really don't mind if the person behind that profile is a Yankee, because credibility on the Internet means nothing to me.

Sonosphere doesn't claim to be an "expert" in military affairs and doesn't claim to be "superior" to Russians. She doesn't apply false claims to her fact base either. Zraver has a chip on his soldier like he has something to prove which lends to the story being false because real soldiers would say "who cares" and move on. What makes his credability poor is the fact he uses his false claims as evidence in his analysis. He seeks self glorification by his story... when he first came here he was Gulf war vet who was in law school. To make himself more real he interjects... oh yeah, I never was in combat, I was a lying drug addict, I just entered uni and I'm a truck driver who makes $50k who gets bunches of Pell grants. The problem with the story is he got busted on being a war vet so he covered his tracks, he admitted he wasn't actually in law school, he couldn't be in the Army being a junky, he got caught not adding the GI bill to his aid, and you can't get Pell grants making $50k annually. His whole life is one big fabrication. I wouldn't care as much if he wasn't such a pompous arse shoving it in my face acting like he is better than everyone but that's how he operates.

If some people like to or fell the need to pretend they're something they're not, let them waste their time.

Let them waste their time... not the time of the people of this board. There is something rather dispicable about claiming to wear the uniform of your country and flaunting it for self glorification that rubs me the wrong way.

[Vladimir80]

I don't know if anyone has a way to track this info or double check...

If you want to end your little game all you have to do is scan your honorable discharge certificate... let me guess, you don't have it?

[DehdaR]

Sonosphere doesn't claim to be an "expert" in military affairs and doesn't claim to be "superior" to Russians. She doesn't apply false claims to her fact base either.

Why would it matter if she claimed to be an expert?

Zraver has a chip on his soldier like he has something to prove which lends to the story being false because real soldiers would say "who cares" and move on. What makes his credability poor is the fact he uses his false claims as evidence in his analysis.

All self-respecting individuals will form their opinions based on their own logic and through documented facts, not based on what “experts” or “armchair generals” have to say. You know this, so why do you insist on walking the extra mile just to humiliate him, when you can simply stop reading his posts?

He seeks self glorification by his story... when he first came here he was Gulf war vet who was in law school. To make himself more real he interjects... oh yeah, I never was in combat, I was a lying drug addict, I just entered uni and I'm a truck driver who makes $50k who gets bunches of Pell grants. The problem with the story is he got busted on being a war vet so he covered his tracks, he admitted he wasn't actually in law school, he couldn't be in the Army being a junky, he got caught not adding the GI bill to his aid, and you can't get Pell grants making $50k annually. His whole life is one big fabrication.

So let him have his moment of glory. What is the big deal? I don’t know Zraver, but if he is an unfortunate person (hypothetically speaking) whose only joy is to day dream on the forum, why would you want to take it away from him?

I can name a small bunch of people here who in my opinion have lost touch with reality, but instead of confronting them, I let them be and try to avoid them. It’s not very difficult.

I wouldn't care as much if he wasn't such a pompous arse shoving it in my face acting like he is better than everyone but that's how he operates.

Yes I agree that he has been acting like that towards you, but with all do respect, you’re not much better when dropping to his level.

[Sinosphere]

I just noticed I was mentioned by Vladimir80 and Dehdar in this thread. I hope I didn't do anything wrong, if so, humble apologies. I really don't want to get involved in this. Please forgive. :(

[DehdaR]

I just noticed I was mentioned by Vladimir80 and Dehdar in this thread. I hope I didn't do anything wrong, if so, humble apologies. I really don't want to get involved in this. Please forgive. :(

I'm sorry for mentioning you; it wasn't my attention to put doubt on your character/credibility. I was just making a hypothetical example and since you are such a likeable person, I thought you would be a good example to use.

Sorry.

[mustavaris]

I just noticed I was mentioned by Vladimir80 and Dehdar in this thread. I hope I didn't do anything wrong, if so, humble apologies. I really don't want to get involved in this. Please forgive. :(

Sinosphere; you are apologizing too much and for things that ainīt so serious nor require apologizing:) Most of us ainīt native English speakers and little misunderstandings are normal if we were, so donīt worry and be happy:)

[Sinosphere]

I'm sorry for mentioning you; it wasn't my attention to put doubt on your character/credibility. I was just making a hypothetical example and since you are such a likeable person, I thought you would be a good example to use.

Sorry.

I understand now, Thank you for your kind compliments, I don't think I'm a good person to use as an good example.

I am sure there are many members on here more likeable and more experienced.

Anyways, thank you for your reply because I was getting worried that I have upset people.

I hope there is no hard feelings between Vladimir80 and Zraver.

[Sinosphere]

Sinosphere; you are apologizing too much and for things that ainīt so serious nor require apologizing:) Most of us ainīt native English speakers and little misunderstandings are normal if we were, so donīt worry and be happy:)

Thank you for your comments. I think apologising is a good way to make the situation and atmosphere between two parties better and minimise any possible misunderstandings or arguments.

This is my personality, apologies if I am giving troubles for others.

Please forgive.

[mustavaris]

I hope there is no hard feelings between Vladimir80 and Zraver.

Theyīll clash as long as they are both here, but thatīs part of the game. Both are good posters and at least I enjoy their sparring when they ainīt launching a fiery barrage of personal/national attacks. At worst they are at the same level in my opinion.. while I must say that personally I tend to agree more often with Zraver while Vladimir has a tendency to twist and turn the things so long that they fit into his view. And actually I do believe that they both have served in their countriesīmilitary.

[mustavaris]

Thank you for your comments. I think apologising is a good way to make the situation and atmosphere between two parties better and minimise any possible misunderstandings or arguments.

This is my personality, apologies if I am giving troubles for others.

Please forgive.

But the fact is that you are not giving troubles for others, so there is nothing to apologize for nor anything to be forgiven! :)

[DehdaR]

But the fact is that you are not giving troubles for others, so there is nothing to apologize for nor anything to be forgiven! :)

Yes she is! She is the root to all problems here. If it wasn't for her we would have peace and everyone would get along.

On a more serious note, I disagree with you regarding Vladimir and Zraver. The only reason why I care to post is because I hate to see Vladimir clinching against someone half his weight size.

[Sinosphere]

Yes she is! She is the root to all problems here. If it wasn't for her we would have peace and everyone would get along.


I am sorry Dehdar. :(

[mustavaris]

Yes she is! She is the root to all problems here. If it wasn't for her we would have peace and everyone would get along.

On a more serious note, I disagree with you regarding Vladimir and Zraver. The only reason why I care to post is because I hate to see Vladimir clinching against someone half his weight size.

Generally speaking Vladimirīs posts are excellent, but he has tried to reach too far a couple of times and hasnt been able to make a honourable withdrawal by admitting a defeat or accepting that he has been wrong.

And there is a matter of taste involved, I like Zraverīs way of argumentation a bit more.

[DehdaR]

I am sorry Dehdar. :(

No I will not forgive you! You are a bad person and you have brought shame to the glorious empire of China. I will no longer tolerate your presence, prepare for your departure!!!

I really hope you're laughing and realise that I'm joking, because otherwise I'm coming off as an complete *beep*hole.

[Sinosphere]

No I will not forgive you! You are a bad person and you have brought shame to the glorious empire of China. I will no longer tolerate your presence, prepare for your departure!!!

I really hope you're laughing and realise that I'm joking, because otherwise I'm coming off as an complete *beep*hole.

Thank you for the explanation. To be honest at first I thought you were being serious because by only reading text, I can easilly get confused about what people are saying.

Also before, I was talking serious so I thought you were being serious too. It is my misunderstanding, apologies for this. In future I would try to be more understanding.

I want to learn things here in this forum, I don't want to cause trouble. Hope you understand. :(

[DehdaR]

Thank you for the explanation. To be honest at first I thought you were being serious because by only reading text, I can easilly get confused about what people are saying.

Also before, I was talking serious so I thought you were being serious too. It is my misunderstanding, apologies for this. In future I would try to be more understanding.

I want to learn things here in this forum, I don't want to cause trouble. Hope you understand. :(

As Mustavaris explained you're the last person on the forums to cause troubles, so please don't put me in an uncomfortable position by apologising to me. I will tone down my rhetoric and choose my words more carefully in the future to avoid being misunderstood.

[Zraver]

Sonosphere doesn't claim to be an "expert" in military affairs and doesn't claim to be "superior" to Russians. She doesn't apply false claims to her fact base either. Zraver has a chip on his soldier like he has something to prove which lends to the story being false because real soldiers would say "who cares" and move on. What makes his credability poor is the fact he uses his false claims as evidence in his analysis. He seeks self glorification by his story... when he first came here he was Gulf war vet who was in law school. To make himself more real he interjects... oh yeah, I never was in combat, I was a lying drug addict, I just entered uni and I'm a truck driver who makes $50k who gets bunches of Pell grants. The problem with the story is he got busted on being a war vet so he covered his tracks, he admitted he wasn't actually in law school, he couldn't be in the Army being a junky, he got caught not adding the GI bill to his aid, and you can't get Pell grants making $50k annually. His whole life is one big fabrication. I wouldn't care as much if he wasn't such a pompous arse shoving it in my face acting like he is better than everyone but that's how he operates.[quote]

Nice way to twist my words.

1- I never ever claimed to be a combat vet

2- law school is my goal, I am currently double majoring in History and Poli Sci

3- The drug problem occured after my discharge

4- the GI bill only lasts 10 years, it expired while I was still recovering from the wrecjage caused by drugs.

5- Your the one who refuses toe ver ever admit your wrong, I do beleive that would make you the pompous one.

6- I am better than you, perhaps not better than anyone else, but assuredly better than you. I don't have to run around attacking other peoples life claims and making ad hominems in order to cover for myself like you do every time you get caught oput in a mistake. I will not beleive you served until ther is some sort of verifiable proof. I ahve provided dates, times, locations, events, and other cues some one who served can pick up on and verify. Like I said I have been vetted via other web sites and admitted as miltiary professional. You on the other have refused several request to provide any information at all. Although you have claimed to have seen combat and watched your friends get blown up.

7- I drove truck after the Army, hardly a novel job for seperating soldiers. I started with Builders Transport, who got bought out by Schnieder who had a contract to train discharged vets.

8- I will ask my mom if she still has copies of my service jacket along with pictures. And if that doesn't work I wil see about requesting a new DD-214, one one condition... When I prove I served you allow your IP to be banned form this site for no less than 3 years. Time to put up or shut up Vlad.

BTW her eis the link for records request. http://www.archives.gov/veterans/evetrecs/

Are you up for it?

[quote]
Let them waste their time... not the time of the people of this board. There is something rather dispicable about claiming to wear the uniform of your country and flaunting it for self glorification that rubs me the wrong way.

Do you have any proof you wore one? You always dodge this question.

[DehdaR]

Zraver please stop it, you're sounding more and more pathetic. The more you are drawn into self-defence the more obvious it becomes that Vladimir has hit some nerves, so really... for the sake of your own dignity, just shup up.

[immortalguard]

8- I will ask my mom if she still has copies of my service jacket along with pictures. And if that doesn't work I wil see about requesting a new DD-214, one one condition... When I prove I served you allow your IP to be banned form this site for no less than 3 years. Time to put up or shut up Vlad.



Zraver doesn't even know that it takes only 2 minutes to get around any IP banning. Ssshhhhhhhhhhh, let's not tell him this is possible. Better leave these rednecks as stupid as they come. Let's not let his mommy know about this either, Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh. :3eyes4:

[Zraver]

Zraver please stop it, you're sounding more and more pathetic. The more you are drawn into self-defence the more obvious it becomes that Vladimir has hit some nerves, so really... for the sake of your own dignity, just shup up.


What is pathetic is Vladimirs ad hominems because he was proven wrong and wasn't mature enough to admit it. I have been subjecte dot his personal attacks for months and now its time for him to put up or shut up.

So far he has (partial list)

1- failed to show how Russia has 10x the reseves of the US in recoverable oil let alone total hydrocabon reserves. If we go by crude oil he needs to prove reserves of 213 billion barrels, if we go by hydrocarbon reserves he needs to prove 13 trillion.

2- failed to admit he was wrogn about beign able to turn coal into oil

3- Failed to show how a plane designed in 1975 could be designed to defeat stealth that didn't even have a maiden flight until 1977

4- Refused to admit he was wrong about the history of the 2nd armored Divsion. instead insting that when it offically reflagged in 93 it must have sprung fully formed from the US Army's womb.

5- provided any verifiable proof that Iran's Kilo's can fire the Club S ( the video purportign to show such a launch was a fake)

6- hacked a video (very poorly done) to try and make it say what he wanted it to say.

7- routinely changed the parameters of a debate when ever he gets caught in a mistake. Most recently with his "true Stealth" BS. True Stealth is any system that work in keeping the enemy from reacting to your presence.

8- Co-opted things I have said that he didn't know about and tried to claim them for himself. A good example is right here in this thread when talking about mines he only lsited choke points, until I pointed out area denial. Then he copted it by adding to his claim, where you have few defenders ie area denial or refusing a flank.

9- claims to be an acutal combat vet who watched his buddies get blown up in Dagestan, but wont provide proof of any real service.

10- Is a rahter racist Russian is who is very anti-American and defends his racism as justifiable and ok since this is an Iranian board. As if antionality should be a factor on board with members from around the globe talking about an area of great importance and mutal interest.

11- Attacks my posts despite the fact that I reason my posts out and support them with both operational and historical information rahter than simple yay for our side propaganda. One has only to look at the debates concerning a possible war between the US amnd iran. My posts ahve already cleary shifted the discussion from unifrmed what ifs to reasoned why fors and hows based on each nations capabilites. I now have many more mebmer sof this board who look at the situation in many more dimensions. I may be boasting but I think the level of debate has gone up since I arrived. When was the alst time a psot by Vlad made you challenge your world view and actually think. He relies on the adoration of the fan boys for legitamcy.

Zraver doesn't even know that it takes only 2 minutes to get around any IP banning. Ssshhhhhhhhhhh, let's not tell him this is possible. Better leave these rednecks as stupid as they come. Let's not let his mommy know about this either, Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh

It would not suprise me if he did so, and it would be well within his demosntrated character, but that is besides the point. The persona he uses would be gone, absolute proof that he was wrong since he cannot admit like a real man.

[Vladimir80]

Statement

I do beleive that would make you the pompous one.

Hypocrisy

I am better than you, perhaps not better than anyone else, but assuredly better than you.

Statement

I don't have to run around attacking other peoples life claims and making ad hominems in order to cover for myself

Hypocrisy

Do you have any proof you wore one? You always dodge this question.




I will not beleive you served until ther is some sort of verifiable proof. I ahve provided dates, times, locations, events, and other cues some one who served can pick up on and verify. Like I said I have been vetted via other web sites and admitted as miltiary professional.

That's the difference between you and me... I don't care what others think. I am secure enough in my self that I don't need the glorification of others.


8- I will ask my mom if she still has copies of my service jacket along with pictures. And if that doesn't work I wil see about requesting a new DD-214, one one condition... When I prove I served you allow your IP to be banned form this site for no less than 3 years. Time to put up or shut up Vlad.

BTW her eis the link for records request. http://www.archives.gov/veterans/evetrecs/

Are you up for it?

Go ask your mummy if you can come out and play. I'm not 12 years old unlike you seem to be. Why don't you come back after you've grown up.

The only reason why I care to post is because I hate to see Vladimir clinching against someone half his weight size.

Your right... he is starting to bore me. I was looking for a little more stimulating conversation but will have to look elsewhere.

[Zraver]

And he dodges the challenge, and still wont provide any proof he served, while asking for such proof form others, and he gets in one more ad hominem attack- I rest my case.

[mustavaris]

Zraver please stop it, you're sounding more and more pathetic. The more you are drawn into self-defence the more obvious it becomes that Vladimir has hit some nerves, so really... for the sake of your own dignity, just shup up.

In my opinion the last two bigger posts of Zraver in this thread... are far from pathetic. Itīs Vladimir who is pathetic if he cannot answer certain questions in them.

[Vladimir80]

In my opinion the last two bigger posts of Zraver in this thread... are far from pathetic. Itīs Vladimir who is pathetic if he cannot answer certain questions in them.

I'll answer any question you want as long is it leaves me some anonymity. I'm not going to un-iggy the other bloke.

[Noor]

o man this has to be the funniest thread so far :roflmao3:"mon dieu,c'est drôle pourquoi avez-vous créé l'homme ? :3eyes4:"

I am pretty sure that Vlad is russian and I think he is telling the truth, otherwise he is doing a good job of pretending to be a "russian":laugh4:

Zraver, I have to agree with others that your posts are becoming a little but ridiculous and funny in a way, and the fact that Sinosphere has NO idea what is going on is adding icing to the cake.
BTW mustavaris like I said before you write very well in English much better than most of the Americans that I have seen, and everyone is doing good with their english, afterall it is not easy to write in a foregn language, and to criticise somebody for trying is absolute insanity. Therefore WRITE in english everyone, try to use sophisticated terms and wording or try to use slang, it will only help you in the long run, and if anybody criticises you, you can tell them "tu m'emmerdes!" in whatever language you speak.:)

[Vladimir80]

o man this has to be the funniest thread so far :roflmao3:"mon dieu,c'est drôle pourquoi avez-vous créé l'homme ? :3eyes4:"

To use American military term I think they call this thread FUBAR.

I am pretty sure that Vlad is russian and I think he is telling the truth, otherwise he is doing a good job of pretending to be a "russian":laugh4:

Are you sure I'm not a Martian? :laugh4:

and the fact that Sinosphere has NO idea what is going on is adding icing to the cake.

It is rather funny... she can speak perfectly when she wants to but if anyone even mentions her she apologizes. :roflmao3:


Therefore WRITE in english everyone, try to use sophisticated terms and wording or try to use slang, it will only help you in the long run,

The more practice the better.

and if anybody criticises youyou can tell them "tu m'emmerdes!" in whatever language you speak.:)

"Vy razdrazhayete men'a"... everybody say it! :laugh4:

[Noor]

"Vy razdrazhayete men'a"... everybody say it! :laugh4:

all I understand from that is menya, which means me I think.:wub2: (going alittle off topic here but this went off topic a while ago so who gives a crap)is it true that in russian there are many words for the same thing , say for example actions, or nouns?

[Vladimir80]

all I understand from that is menya, which means me I think.:wub2: (going alittle off topic here but this went off topic a while ago so who gives a crap)is it true that in russian there are many words for the same thing , say for example actions, or nouns?

There are many ways to say the same things.

[mustavaris]

There are many ways to say the same things.

Out of curiousity, Russia and Finland have similar drinking kultures (yes, kultures), how many words (aprox.) for drinking, being drunken and hangover you have?

We have three digit number of each of them:roflmao3:

[Behrooz Boonabi]

This thread is over done. Closed