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jawwal
08-23-2007, 11:24 PM
Published by the GLORIA Center,
Interdisciplinary Center, Herzliya
Volume 11, No. 1, Article 10/11 - March 2007
Total Circulation 23,500


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FROM COLD PEACE TO COLD WAR?
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF EGYPT'S MILITARY BUILDUP
Jeffrey Azarva*

Since the 1978 Camp David Accords, the Egyptian government has undertaken extraordinary efforts to modernize its military with Western arms and weapon systems. By bolstering its armored corps, air force, and naval fleet with an array of U.S. military platforms, the Egyptian armed forces have emerged as one the region's most formidable forces. But as the post-Husni Mubarak era looms, questions abound. Who, precisely, is Egypt arming against, and why? Has Egypt attained operational parity with Israel? How will the military be affected by a succession crisis? Could Cairo's weapons arsenal fall into the hands of Islamists? This essay will address these and other questions by analyzing the regime's procurement of arms, its military doctrine, President Mubarak's potential heirs, and the Islamist threat.

INTRODUCTION

In March 1999, then U.S. Secretary of Defense William Cohen embarked on a nine-nation tour of the Middle East to finalize arms agreements worth over $5 billion with regional governments. No state received more military hardware than Egypt. Totaling $3.2 billion, Egypt's arms package consisted of 24 F-16D fighter planes, 200 M1A1 Abrams tanks, and 32 Patriot-3 missiles.[1] Five months later, Cairo inked a $764 million deal for more sophisticated U.S. weaponry. Few in Egypt and the United States batted an eye.

For the government of Husni Mubarak, exorbitant military expenditures have always been the rule, not the exception. In the 29 years since the Camp David Accords, successive U.S. administrations have provided Egypt with roughly $60 billion in military and economic aid subsidies to reinforce its adherence to peace.[2] Under U.S. auspices, the Mubarak regime has utilized $1.3 billion in annual military aid to transform its armed forces from an unwieldy Soviet-based fighting force to a modernized, well-equipped, Western-style military.

Outfitted with some of the most sophisticated U.S. weapons technology, Egypt's arsenal has been significantly improved--qualitatively as well as quantitatively--in nearly every military branch. While assimilating state-of-the-art weaponry into its order of battle, the Egyptian military has also decommissioned Soviet equipment or upgraded outdated ordnance. This unprecedented military buildup, however, extends beyond the mere procurement and renovation of Western armaments; Egypt has been the beneficiary of joint military exercises and training programs with the United States dating back to 1983.

However, while the Egyptian leadership has professed its desire for peace and emphasized the deterrent nature of the buildup, its stockpiling of arms should arouse some concern. Already the most advanced army on the African continent, the Egyptian military faces no appreciable threat on its Libyan or Sudanese borders. Thus, some analysts believe it has been reconstituted with one purpose in mind: to achieve military parity with its neighbor across the demilitarized Sinai Peninsula--Israel.

Many Israeli policymakers, though, see Egypt's conventional military buildup in a different light. In their analysis, Egypt's self-perception as a regional power broker necessitates the creation of a potent military. While Egypt remains a hotbed of anti-Semitism nearly three decades after peace, for them, such rhetoric is intended only for domestic consumption. The mainstream Israeli defense establishment, by and large, shares this assessment, citing the Egyptian military's doctrinal flaws and questionable combat readiness as an impediment to renewed conflict.

Yet while battle plans are not being drawn up in Cairo, Egypt's muscle-flexing does raise an eyebrow when other factors are considered. As the Husni Mubarak era enters its twilight years, no real decision has been made concerning his successor, though his son certainly appears the frontrunner. While Egypt's Islamists are unlikely to usurp power anytime soon, a drastic change in leadership could spawn greater instability in the Egyptian-Israeli arena. Likewise, Egypt's failure to curtail endemic weapons smuggling on the Egypt-Gaza border--arms which are funneled to Palestinian terrorists--has fueled speculation among Israeli hardliners that Cairo may be girding for war.

The truth, of course, likely lies somewhere between these divergent viewpoints.

ARMING TO THE TEETH

In a November 1995 speech, President Husni Mubarak encapsulated the mission statement of the Egyptian military, declaring, "...The level of our armed forces is a source of pride for us all, and [they] are capable of deterring any danger threatening our national security."[3] Senior officials and generals in the Egyptian armed forces, such as Minister of Defense and War Production Field Marshal Muhammad Hussein Tantawi, have echoed similar sentiments that, while stressing the doctrine of deterrence, have explicitly stressed the importance of offensive capabilities. While not discounting the probability of armed conflict with Israel, Egyptian officials view such offensive-orientated capabilities as a means of enhancing Egyptian diplomacy, allowing it to operate from a position of strength. The Mubarak government sees this posture as a prerequisite for regional stability, inextricably linked to a comprehensive settlement of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

However, diplomatic leverage alone cannot explain Egypt's buildup. As the main bastion of regime support, the military's strength serves Mubarak's interest in stability. Given the paranoia that pervades much of the ruling elite in Egypt and other Arab mukhabarat states, it is understandable that the Egyptian leadership views a strong military as its greatest asset. In this sense, Egypt's bloated defense budget represents a quid pro quo of sorts. Mubarak furnishes his military brass with weapons and pensions; in return, they refrain from dabbling in politics and pledge to safeguard his regime from external threats. Perhaps one can also frame the buildup in terms of domestic prestige. Owen L. Sirs writes that during the height of the 1960s, the government's military parades "...served as a sort of symbolic dialogue between the Egyptian regime and its people."[4] While today's demonstrations may lack the pomp and grandeur reminiscent of the Nasser era, they still serve to showcase the country's modernization and progress.

Other motives drive Egypt's strategic objectives as well. Ostracized by its neighbors in the 1980s for blazing a trail to peace, Egyptian leadership found vindication in the peace process of the 1990s. Yet with this historic opportunity came two distinct choices. As Robert Satloff notes, Egypt could either "...expand the circle of peace via widening Arab normalization with Israel or [choose] to follow a different path, one that views Israel as a fundamental challenge to Egypt's self-perception as a regional power... and makes anti-normalization a fixture of Egyptian policy."[5] Perhaps threatened by the Jewish state's regional assimilation and military prowess, Egypt has opted for the latter. Thus, it has embarked on a sustained campaign to contain Israel and alter the Middle East's balance of power.

Flush with billions in U.S. military aid since the 1980s, the Egyptian government has significantly revamped its conventional forces, paying particular heed to its armored corps, air, and naval forces. Today, Egypt, no longer a beneficiary of its erstwhile Soviet patron, can boast of a Western-style fighting force--comprised of 450,000 regular servicemen--that approaches the quantitative and qualitative levels of the Israeli military in certain sectors. Israel is, of course, more concerned with preserving its edge in the latter. That is, given the sheer size of Israel's Arab neighbors, it is imperative that the Jewish state compensate for its inevitable quantitative weakness by maintaining its advantage in weapons systems, training, and technological know-how.

Still, the qualitative gap has shrunk as Egypt catapulted itself into the upper echelon of Middle Eastern arms importers during the past decade. From 2001 to 2004 alone, Egypt paid $6.5 billion in arms transfer agreements, $5.7 billion of which was used to purchase U.S. weaponry.[6] During this period, Egypt supplanted Saudi Arabia as the primary recipient of U.S.-manufactured arms in the Middle East.[7]

Among Egypt's most noteworthy acquisitions has been its procurement of American-made M1A1 Abrams battle tanks, whose components are partly assembled on Egyptian production lines. When the U.S. Department of Defense first licensed production of the M1A1 tank (commensurate with the Israeli Merkava tank) in Egypt in 1988, the decision raised alarm in some U.S. and Israeli policy circles, given the sensitive transfer of technology involved, the method of co-production, and the fiscal constraints it would place on an already burdened Egyptian economy. Yezid Sayigh notes that this industrial strategy of in-country assemblage, prevalent in the Middle East, enables the arms importer to "...acquire the necessary production skills and military technology gradually, with the eventual aim of producing indigenous systems."[8] Israeli analysts believe that by the time the current contract is completed in 2008, Egypt's armored corps will have amassed 880 M1A1s.[9]

In 1999, Israeli defense officials became concerned when Egypt acquired 10,800 rounds of 120mm KEW-A1 ammunition for its Abrams battle tanks.[10] Composed of depleted uranium, this armor-piercing ammunition--long possessed by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF)--was used by U.S. Abrams crews to decimate 4,000 Iraqi tanks and armored vehicles during Operation Desert Storm and is said to be able to neutralize any armor system in existence.[11] None of this is to mention Egypt's 835 upgraded and U.S.-made M-60A3 tanks that also saw action in the 1991 Gulf crisis.[12]

The influx of sophisticated, Western weapons into Egypt is not limited to the renovation of its armored corps. This buildup also extends to the Egyptian Air Force (EAF), which now sports roughly 220 F-16 fighter planes, in comparison with the approximately 240 F-16s in the Israeli arsenal.[13] Israeli strategic analysts, such as Ret. Brigadier General Shlomo Brom, are quick to point that while this margin has narrowed substantially since the 1980s, the status of the Israeli Air Force's qualitative edge should not be confused with quantitative parity in military platforms. "We say they aren't the same planes. The level of the pilots and the quality of the weapons systems are not identical," Brom stated.[14] There are also reports that Israel will be the first Middle Eastern state equipped with the F-22 and F-35, the F-16's successors.

Still, other IDF officials disagree with Brom's assessment and believe that the EAF's growth has forced Israel to alter its air combat techniques. Those critics point to the EAF's recent integration of 36 AH-64A Apache attack helicopters, each capable of carrying 16 laser-guided, anti-tank, Hellfire missiles.[15] It is worth noting, though, that while permitted to upgrade the Apaches to their more advanced prototype (the AH-64D), Egypt has been prevented from acquiring the helicopter's most coveted feature--the Longbow radar--which has first-rate target identification capabilities.[16] Nonetheless, the Israeli Air Force maintains only a handful more of Apaches than its Egyptian counterpart.

While apprehensive about the buildup of the Egyptian ground and air forces, some Israeli officials, especially Knesset Member Yuval Steinitz and former commander-in-chief of the Israeli Navy, Major General Yedidia Ya'ari, consider the overhaul of the Egyptian navy to be the most significant aspect of the military's modernization program. The Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies' 2003-2004 Middle East Strategic Balance report notes that Egypt acquired two Knox class frigates and four Oliver Hazard Perry frigates from the United States in the 1990s.[17] Obtained as excess defense articles from the Pentagon, the Perry-class frigates are "capable of over-the-horizon combat and anti-submarine warfare."[18]

However, it was the November 2001 Bush Administration decision to sell Egypt 53 satellite-guided Harpoon Block II missiles, which can exploit Israel's lack of strategic depth by evading its current air defense systems, that has truly caused consternation in Jerusalem.[19] This purchase could signal a strategic shift in Egypt's naval doctrine--one that would allow it to project its open-sea capabilities even further in the eastern Mediterranean Sea and place a stranglehold on Israel's most important maritime lifelines. Though the U.S. State Department downplayed the missiles' offensive nature, one must remember that Egypt's geographic position gives its fleet--which maintains principal naval bases at Ras al-Tin on the Mediterranean and at Safajeh and Hurghada on the Red Sea--the capability to blockade both of Israel's sea links with the outside world.

The United States will likely continue to refrain from selling the Egyptian government advanced weapon systems that would allow the EAF, or any other branch of the Egyptian armed forces, to enjoy operational parity with their Israeli counterparts. Former U.S. Secretary of Defense William Cohen said as much during his visit to the region in 1999, when he reassured then Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the United States remained committed to "...Israel's qualitative edge and military capability to protect its own people."[20]

In the past, though, the United States has demonstrated a willingness to export some of its most sensitive military technologies to regional governments, as evidenced by the Clinton Administration's sale of the AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range-Air-to-Air-Missile (AMRAAM) to the United Arab Emirates in 1998.[21] Prior to this transfer, only Israel had been cleared to purchase the AMRAAM among Middle Eastern states.[22] However, contracts were soon inked in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Egypt, with the United States selling Cairo a lesser ground-launched version of the missile in 2000 only because of vociferous Israeli objections.[23] Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's blasé reaction to these and other related developments belied Israel's true concern. In 2004, Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom vehemently opposed--and ultimately won restrictions on--a U.S.-AMRAAM sale to Jordan based on fears that the technology would eventually be sold to Egypt.[24] Though purchasing the AMRAAM system had once been the sole prerogative of NATO member states (and Israel), the flurry of U.S. sales to non-NATO Arab governments, including Egypt, signaled that U.S. arms transfer sales could indeed trump strategic promises.

WESTERN WEAPONS, SOVIET DOCTRINE?

While detractors of the gloom-and-doom scenario in the Israeli defense establishment will not dispute the Egyptian military's modernization, their sanguine assessments assume that it will be mired in its antiquated Soviet-style military doctrine for the foreseeable future. Undoubtedly, Egypt's military ranks are still characterized by a rigid command structure; one that strategic analysts say precludes the implementation of the Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA)--a military concept espousing the use of precision-guided weaponry, information technology, and integrated command and control systems with real-time capabilities.

That the Egyptian armed forces have failed to fully adopt the RMA paradigm thus far is true. Even with continued American aid at current levels, the Egyptian armed forces would encounter a serious economic crunch in financing such an initiative. Yet that is not to say they do not possess some of the requisite skills. The military has been the beneficiary of numerous joint initiatives and training exercises with Western forces dating back to the large-scale "Operation Bright Star" maneuvers kicked off in 1983.[25] Held biennially in the Egyptian desert, "Bright Star" stresses interoperability and has exposed thousands of Egyptian military personnel to U.S. advanced training techniques and expertise in tactical ground, air, naval, and special operations.[26] Mubarak's deployment of 30,000 troops, including commando and paratrooper units paired alongside U.S. forces, into the Kuwaiti theater during Operation Desert Storm in 1991 illustrated Egypt's ability to apply RMA techniques in actual combat.[27]

U.S. programs such as Peace Vector and the International Military Education and Training initiative (IMET) have provided additional know-how to the Egyptian military in tactical training and weapons maintenance. Under the third installment of the Peace Vector program (PV III), which began in August 1991, Egyptian Air Force pilots have logged thousands of flight hours with their American counterparts in tactical operations.[28] Other projects in the PV III program have included the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' construction of a self-sufficient F-16 air base located in Ismailiyya, Egypt (adjacent to the Suez Canal and demilitarized Sinai), which can accommodate a population of up to 20,000 personnel.[29] Under IMET, 6,600 Egyptian soldiers have participated in U.S. military education courses since 1995 in an effort to instill U.S. values, doctrines, and procedures.[30]

Despite such assistance, logistical support, and extensive coordination, the mainstream Israeli defense establishment continues to perpetuate the belief that the Egyptian military's mere knowledge of the RMA doctrine does not necessarily imply its implementation. The Badr-96 and Jabal Pharon-98 exercises debunk this myth. In September 1996, the Egyptian armed forces staged a ten day maneuver near the Suez Canal, the largest operation of its kind since the late 1970s. The target of the exercise was explicit: Israel. Badr-96--the same code-name used for Egypt's crossing of the Suez Canal in the 1973 Yom Kippur War (Badr-73)--simulated a large-scale amphibious landing on the Sinai Peninsula coast by a mechanized infantry battalion.[31] Designed first to repel an Israeli attack, the battalion--coupled with border guards, paratroopers, and special forces--would then engage in a counteroffensive to seize control of the entire Sinai and penetrate Israeli territory.[32]

Hailed by the Egyptian media as a stern warning to Prime Minister Netanyahu, Badr-96 evoked stirring nationalistic sentiments from the 1973 war. The state-controlled newspaper al-Ahram was one of several media outlets to engage in saber-rattling. An editorial published by the paper's managing editor read "...The lessons of Badr-73 and Badr-96 take us back to the starting point... that the end of war does not necessarily mean the achievement of peace, and vice-versa."[33]

Similarly, the Jabal Pharon exercise on April 22, 1998 sought to create a scenario whereby the Egyptian Third Army, in conjunction with naval and air force personnel, conducted operations in the rugged terrain of the Sinai.[34] Once more, the target was the Israeli Defense Forces. On August 12, 2001, in the midst of the al-Aqsa Intifada and three days after a Hamas suicide bombing rocked Jerusalem, London's Sunday Times reported that a senior Egyptian official allegedly threatened to deploy the Egyptian Third Army into Sinai--at the late Yasir Arafat's behest--if Israel moved into the occupied territories to thwart Palestinian terrorism.[35] That another Badr-like exercise ensued the following month[36] at Ismailiyya should be sufficient evidence to suggest that the Egyptian military--which enjoys a symbiotic relationship with Mubarak and the state--feels constrained by the security measures imposed on it by the 1979 treaty. As a result, some Israeli officials see these exercises as an inherent Egyptian desire to remilitarize the Sinai. Whether that ambition translates into capability is contested, given the assertion of military experts that any successful military operation in the Sinai Peninsula requires RMA-style warfare.

It is here, precisely, where Egypt's acquisition of the M1A1 Abrams tank and the AH-64A helicopter could have dire consequences. As the tank battles of the 1967 and 1973 wars have illustrated, the peninsula is an ideal battleground for armored, mobile warfare. Theoretically, an Egyptian foray into Sinai, in which M1A1s are given aerial cover by AH-64A Apaches and F-16s, would enable mechanized forces to seize the strategic Mitla and Giddi passes in central Sinai before an Israeli counterattack. By controlling these access routes, vital for east-west movement, the Egyptian armored corps could then traverse the entire peninsula in a relatively short period of time.

This scenario, though, is not universally accepted. While the M1A1's superior long-range capabilities were put on display in the Iraqi desert in 1991 and 2003, Stephen A. Cook believes that the "...Egyptians are able to employ them [M1A1s] only as set battlefield pieces. This is a function of the fact that Egypt's land forces... cannot refuel and re-supply its forces beyond a limited range."[37] Other Israeli analysts counter that the Suez Canal zone's weak logistical infrastructure, which includes bridges (some of which are pontoons), ferries, and the Ahmad Hamdi tunnel, renders the movement of Egypt's M1A1s highly susceptible to an Israeli air attack with precision weapons.

THE DAY AFTER MUBARAK

Most Israeli policymakers, though anxious about the buildup on the Nile, portray Egypt as something of a paper tiger; one that derives too many rewards from peace to foolishly self-inflict death and destruction on its own people. Their conventional wisdom holds that President Mubarak's quarter-century of authoritarian rule has actually acted as a bulwark against not only those extremist elements in Egyptian society who wish death upon Israel, but against the military's adventurism as well. Even if that assumption were true, Egypt faces a looming presidential succession that could completely invalidate this strategic assessment. In 2003, Shaul Mofaz voiced his uncertainty over the matter, stating, "Within a few years Egypt's leadership might be replaced and the new regime might have a different attitude toward Israel."[38]

While President Mubarak at age 78 is in reputedly "good health," his fainting during a televised parliament session in 2003 and his sudden two-week absence for medical treatment abroad in 2004 paint a different picture of stability.[39] Mubarak has also eschewed pressure over the years to appoint a vice president, most recently during an April 9, 2006 interview with al-Arabiyya TV. Mubarak stated: "The constitution gives me the right of appointing a vice-president. The vice-president has no work except as he performs only directives of the president. This is the point and I'm not ready to appoint a vice-president..."[40]

Despite a constitutional provision specifying the temporary transfer of power to the speaker of parliament following the president's permanent incapacitation,[41] vice presidents have, in practice, assumed the mantle of leadership before. Thus, Mubarak's gambit in maintaining this vacancy has not only clouded the issue of succession, but has generated much unease in Egypt and elsewhere as well. In recent years, this decision appears to have cleared the path for heir apparent Gamal Mubarak, Husni's son and one of three deputy secretary-generals in his father's ruling National Democratic Party (NDP).[42] The liberal-minded Gamal continues to burnish his image at home and abroad. During the fourth annual NDP conference in September 2006, he proposed an Egyptian nuclear program and openly defied Washington's vision of a "new Middle East," stating: "We will not accept initiatives made abroad."[43] Still, his "inheritance" of the presidency is not a foregone conclusion.

In a January 1, 2004 press conference, the elder Mubarak reassured Egyptians that he would not emulate the "Syria model," which witnessed Bashar al-Asad's rise to power after his father's death in 2000. "We are not a monarchy. We are the Republic of Egypt... we are not Syria and Gamal Mubarak will not be the next president of Egypt," Mubarak declared.[44] Gamal echoed similar sentiments during 2005's "Cairo Spring," when his father introduced political reforms authorizing Egypt's first multi-candidate presidential election. Eager to shed the label of heir apparent, Gamal stated: "I am absolutely clear in my mind and the president's mind that this story of father and son has nothing to do with reality."[45]

Of course, actions speak louder than words in the Middle East. The recent consolidation of key policy positions by Gamal and his associates within the NDP belies such statements. However, in a country where the Free Officers Movement's 1952 coup d'état still resonates--every president since has been drawn from the military's ranks--Gamal's non-military background could present a problem. Edward S. Walker Jr., a former U.S. ambassador to both Israel and Egypt, warns that if Gamal is truly bent on economic reform, "...the entire military and security structure could easily lose its privileges, its special treatment, its informal retirement benefits..."[46] Such a development, in which the Egyptian military loses its patronage, could loosen the government's reins on the armed forces and unnerve Israeli leadership. At the very least, the armed forces would be hard-pressed to accept such a monarchical-style transition.

Other potential successors do not elicit much Israeli confidence either where the military is concerned. One is current Defense Minister Muhammad Hussein Tantawi, who believes that only the "endless development of military systems and the arms race" will guarantee Egyptian national security.[47] Egyptian security sources revealed that had the 1995 plot to assassinate Mubarak in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia succeeded, Tantawi, a Mubarak confidant for many years, would have become president "without a doubt."[48] Tantawi's advanced age and failing health, though, likely decrease his prospects of succeeding Mubarak.

General Omar Sulayman, the head of Egyptian intelligence, remains another candidate in the offing. Arguably the second most powerful man in Egypt, Sulayman, aged 70, raised his public profile considerably after he was handed the Palestinian dossier following the intifada's outbreak in 2000.[49] A career military officer and Mubarak's right-hand man, Sulayman was also responsible for quelling the Islamist insurgency in Egypt during the 1990s. Some Israeli policymakers suggest Sulayman's role as an interlocutor between the Palestinians and Israelis and between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, particularly during the 2003 hudna (cease-fire) negotiations, juxtaposes his tough anti-Islamist terror stance.

Sulayman has often met with Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terror chiefs in Cairo, Gaza, Ramallah, and Damascus--gestures which have not only conferred legitimacy upon such groups, but have also served to undercut a weakened and once-secular Palestinian Authority.[50] While he publicly sought to broker an unconditional cease-fire between Palestinian terror factions and Israel in 2003, as required by the Quartet's road map for peace, Sulayman privately demanded that the former only halt its attacks within the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and 1949 armistice lines for a period of six months.[51]

Though Sulayman did in fact engineer an official, albeit brief, cessation of violence on June 29, 2003,[52] his intervention came under close Israeli scrutiny. Oded Granot, an Israeli journalist, suggested that Sulayman's efforts were perhaps motivated more by an urge to "quiet" the Egyptian street during the Iraq War's infancy, lest anti-government protests break out, than by a genuine desire for peace. Israeli officials reserved harsher criticism for Sulayman. Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom believed that the general's efforts would implicitly endanger the Jewish state by creating a "ticking time bomb;" a respite that would allow Gaza's terrorist infrastructure to regroup and replenish via the Philadelphia Corridor and Sinai.

TUNNEL WARS

Seven weeks later, the hudna began unraveling. On August 19, 2003, a Hamas operative blew himself up while riding a Jerusalem bus.[53] At the same time, IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Yaalon reported that after the Israeli army discovered and destroyed several smuggling tunnels in Gaza, smoke billowed from their opposite end--in some cases from inside Egyptian military posts.[54]

No picture of Egypt's de facto strategy toward Israel can be considered complete without examining the Gaza tunnel phenomenon. While in past years the IDF and Israeli intelligence have monitored Egypt's conventional arms buildup with unease, their attention has often been diverted to another front where Cairo's true intentions have increasingly been called into question--the Egypt-Gaza Strip border.

On August 22, 2005, the Israeli government completed its disengagement from the Gaza Strip after 38 years of occupation. Israel's Disengagement Plan had called for the evacuation of all Jewish settlements and military installations in Gaza, with one exception. The plan stated that the IDF would not redeploy in the Philadelphia Corridor, an eight-mile border zone between Gaza and Egypt notorious for its arms-smuggling tunnels.

As disengagement approached, the decision to retain control of the corridor became untenable, despite the concerns of Israeli policymakers that withdrawing troops from the area, including the Rafah border crossing with Egypt, would result in the militarization of Gaza as a terror base. Israeli leaders determined that maintaining an Israeli presence in the border strip would be a lasting source of Palestinian and Arab antagonism and would undercut their government's claims of complete withdrawal. The Israeli government looked toward Cairo as the most viable alternative to patrol the border and stem the flow of contraband into Gaza. Though some Israeli officials remained skeptical of Egypt's commitment, the two governments signed the "Agreed Arrangements Regarding the Deployment of a Designated Force of Border Guards along the Border in the Rafah Area" on September 1, 2005.[55]

Pursuant to the agreement,[56] Egypt dispatched a border guard force to the corridor (comprised of 750 armed personnel) to replace the Egyptian police force mandated by the 1979 peace treaty. Permitted weaponry included assault rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, and machine guns.[57] Though subject to the treaty, which stipulates the Sinai Peninsula's demilitarization, the Agreed Arrangements raised fears in Israel over the Egyptian force's objectives in the Sinai and the overall stability of the peace agreement.

While observers often perceive the corridor's smuggling as an exclusive Palestinian enterprise, Israeli concerns have been augmented by what Major General Doron Almog, former head of the IDF's Southern Command, calls "a parallel Egyptian mechanism for smuggling and infiltration"[58] extending into Sinai and the mainland. Black market forces may often serve as the impetus for this mechanism--smuggling is a very profitable business--but in the end, it can only function with what Almog refers to as the "official acquiescence" of the Mubarak regime.

Several factors suggest that Egypt's failure to curb the influx of weapons at Rafah--a town physically straddling the Egyptian-Gazan border--is a product of inaction, not inability. First, an army general on active service presides over the Sinai governorate that stretches 100 miles behind Rafah.[59] In an authoritarian country like Egypt, where the armed forces are the guarantor of internal stability, the military is cognizant of all that goes on under its nose. Second, there are only two access roads in the Sinai; countering the movement of weaponry bound for Rafah should be a relatively easy undertaking. Finally, while the IDF's counter-smuggling operations in the corridor have almost always met fierce opposition from local inhabitants, Egyptian patrols encounter no such armed resistance in Egyptian Rafah.

The Egyptian military has proven capable of reducing the security threat in the past. When the Israeli military outpost of Termit, located in Rafah, came under attack in 2001, Egyptian Rafah was conspicuously quiet.[60] That is, despite the presence of illegal arms and Palestinians in that area of the city, Israeli soldiers were only ambushed from within Gaza. The Egyptian army had restrained all violent activity on its side of the border. In past years, it is also true that Egypt has arrested smugglers and detonated tunnels, but only when it has been politically expedient. Unfortunately, these instances are few and far between.

Yuval Diskin, head of the Shin Bet domestic security service, and Avi Dichter, minister of internal security, are two of the outspoken leaders in Israel sounding the alarm. On August 29, 2006, Diskin referred to the Sinai Peninsula and Rafah border area as a veritable "Garden of Eden" for weapons smuggling. On September 27, 2006, he again spoke of the exponential increase in smuggling since Israel's 2005 Gaza withdrawal, estimating that nineteen tons of weapons and explosives were burrowed into the strip during the past year. Holding Egyptian officials directly accountable, he said, "The Egyptians know who the smugglers are and don't deal with them. They received intelligence on this from us and didn't use it. We're talking about an escalation that is endangering us."[61] Three days after his remarks, four Egyptian policemen were caught attempting to smuggle ammunitions and hand grenades to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.[62] Alluding to this incident and other tunnel discoveries, Dichter urged White House officials in October 2006 to ratchet up pressure on Cairo, criticizing its government's failure to employ the "considerable capabilities" at its disposal.[63]

Whether or not smuggling activities are officially sanctioned by the Mubarak government is irrelevant. What does matter is that the current regime's see-no-evil policy at Philadelphia--what Almog refers to as a "release valve for [Egyptian] public sympathy for the Palestinian armed struggle"[64]--significantly raises the stakes for Israel's national security by allowing arms and material to be pumped into Gaza at a dizzying rate.

THE ISLAMIST THREAT

Some suggest that Egypt's radical Islamist movement, closely allied with like-minded Palestinian groups, has been the prime beneficiary of the government's Philadelphia strategy. Not only has unimpeded smuggling at Rafah stoked the flames of Egypt's Islamist movement, it has permitted homegrown jihadists and those in the Palestinian territories the opportunity to attack the Mubarak government and Israelis simultaneously. The October 2004 suicide bombings at Tab'a, a popular resort location for Israelis in Egypt, were perpetrated by Sinai Bedouins and Hamas operatives.[65] A Palestinian group in Gaza, Monotheism and Jihad, physically trained an Egyptian terror cell in the use of explosives and firearms before carrying out the April 2006 bombings at Sinai's Dahab resort.[66]

That the corridor and its environs could become a personal fiefdom for Egyptian extremists is one reason that Israeli prognosticators fear an Islamist takeover in Cairo. Although considered improbable today, the specter of an Islamic revolution following Husni Mubarak's rule should not be dismissed. Coupled with the Egyptian military buildup, it would have grave consequences for regional security.

To be sure, the toppling of the secular Mubarak regime by Islamist extremists would have far-reaching effects. The extensive American aid and assistance programs would cease automatically. The Egyptian military's already shoddy weapons maintenance would be exacerbated. Jihadists would annul the 1979 treaty. Yet it would be wrong to assume that Egypt would thus become nothing more than a massive arms depot to which somebody had thrown away the key. Despite government efforts to the contrary, Islamists and the military have not always remained mutually exclusive entities.

Islamists from the Muslim Brotherhood's most violent offshoots--such as al-Jama'a al-Islamiyya and Jama'at al-Jihad--have had past success in infiltrating the military's ranks. Among the members of Jama'at al-Jihad, the group that carried out Anwar Sadat's 1981 assassination, were an army colonel on active duty and a reserve lieutenant colonel.[67] Other members were drawn from a broad swath of Egyptian society, including state security forces and military intelligence. In December 1986, a ring of four military officers and 29 Islamists affiliated with the same group was arrested and charged with waging jihad against the Mubarak regime.[68] By the end of the decade, the government's purge had resulted in the detention of some 10,000 Islamists suspected of infiltration.

That the regime has grown wary should not come as a surprise. In prosecuting its own "war on terror" against radical Islamists in the 1980s and 1990s, the state began implementing policies to counteract the threat. Yet rarely has the military entered into this calculus. Fearing its exposure to fundamentalist ideologies, the government has rarely summoned the armed forces into action.[69] Instead, counterterrorism operations have often been delegated to state security services, but even they have not been immune from this phenomenon. Thus, the regime has left no stone unturned in stemming the tide of infiltration. In addition to restricting the military's rules of engagement, it has begun constructing a host of military cities in remote locations, such as Mubarak Military City in the Nile Delta region, to ward off Islamist influence.

The regime's precautionary steps have often been supplemented by stern counterterrorism measures--measures which not only broke the Islamist insurgency's back in the 1990s but have also allowed relative quiet to prevail since. While the threat posed by al-Jihad and al-Jama'a al-Islamiyya has not evaporated--even with the latter's renunciation of violence--the radical Islamist leadership in Egypt remains fractured and marginalized. Mubarak's cooption of the movement's mainstream and less militant elements, coupled with the recent release of 950 al-Jama'a al-Islamiyya members in April 2006,[70] has further moderated their ranks.

Despite episodic violence, Mubarak's balancing act has thus far allowed him to secure the allegiance of the military--the regime's most significant pillar of strength--while thwarting the Islamists' attempt at regime change. Still, the latter's quest for power in Egypt lies within the realm of possibility, given Mubarak's border policies at Rafah and his failure to appoint a vice president and surefire successor.

CONCLUSION

As the Egyptian armed forces continue to upgrade the quantity and quality of their military platforms to unparalleled heights--levels rivaling those of Israel--they have positioned themselves to be a major player on the Middle Eastern block. The path charted by Egypt during the coming years, though, will go a long way toward determining the significance of its meteoric rise from an archaic, Soviet-styled military to a Western-armed, twenty-first century juggernaut.

While justifiably concerned about the neighborhood in which they operate, the Egyptian military's unrelenting buildup appears to have already met its stated objectives of deterrence. The continued integration of Western weaponry into Egypt's armored corps, air force, and naval fleet has thus raised the question: To what end? Egyptian defense officials will riposte that a strong military is essential for enhancing regional security, protecting strategic maritime routes, and strengthening U.S.-Egyptian coordination.

Though the Egyptian armed forces do serve these and other interests, one cannot neglect the fact that rearmament is also geared toward changing the military status quo vis-à-vis Israel. Of course, this is not to suggest that Egypt is on the warpath, moving toward a confrontation with Israel tomorrow or the day after. Full-blown hostilities, reminiscent of past Arab-Israeli wars, that would reap wholesale death and destruction are not, one would think, in Cairo's best interests. Yet in an explosive region such as this, policymaking is not often equated with best interests.

Viewed in the context of Egypt's regional ambitions, limited rapprochement with Israel, and potential succession crisis--with all its implications for the peace treaty and an Islamist resurgence--the military's buildup resembles a powder keg forming on Israel's doorstep. Three decades of peace notwithstanding, the Egyptian-Israeli front remains a tinderbox, one in which a cold peace may just become a cold war.

*Jeffrey Azarva is a research assistant at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, DC.



http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2007/issue1/jv11no1a10.html

Ayyash
08-24-2007, 01:20 AM
Interesting, thats what a book i was reading a while ago actually predicted, i actually posted it here, b/c i thought it was remarkable. Anyway, i guess the question is, will there be democratic elections after mubarak kicks the bucket, and if there is, how much will the muslim brotherhood win by? And f there is not, which radical, anti-western zealot will seize power? Sounds like, damned if you do, damned if you dont

jawwal
08-24-2007, 01:55 AM
The worst case scenario would be if President Mubarak shifted power to his son as some sources predict. Free democratic election in egypt would definitely outset the current system, hopefully to a more sensible leader that would turn egypt back to its role as the main arabic power in the region.

Ayyash
08-24-2007, 04:00 AM
I know that the muslim brotherhood would do quite well in a democratic election, but how well, do you perchance have the numbers on that?

jawwal
08-24-2007, 11:52 PM
I know that the muslim brotherhood would do quite well in a democratic election, but how well, do you perchance have the numbers on that?

If the election were democratic, i believe they will be in power, but what is their vision for the future? Their strategy and outlook for the future of Egypt?

abu sulayman
09-13-2007, 09:47 PM
Egypt's military spending is dwarfed by the Saudis.
But at least the Egyptians know how to use their equipment.

Expect a power struggle when Mubarak kicks the bucket. Count on the Americans to lend a helping hand in finding a successor.
There won't be democracy.

not-now
09-14-2007, 02:04 PM
egypt has had the best military in the ME for a while it's closing the gap on israel very quickly.
Imo it's the only arab country that knows how to fight ya gotta give respect to egypt.

khairat786
09-24-2007, 05:39 AM
the problem with egypt is that they still do not have BVR technology.they have lots of F-16 but mainly block 30-40 and non BVR capable.they do not stand a chance in front of isreal,turkey and saudi arebia.

gomig21
12-02-2007, 10:39 PM
If the election were democratic, i believe they will be in power, but what is their vision for the future? Their strategy and outlook for the future of Egypt?

Jawwal,
I sincerely hope that if the Muslim Brotherhood achieves electoral power in Egypt after Mubarak passes on that they show their moderate side of thinking when it comes to the policies they will have to deal with regarding the US and Israel. This is a very delicate issue and cannot be decided based on feelings of the heart. As much pride as Egyptians have when it comes to Egypt - Israel "cold war" tensions, there would be serious implications should the MB decide to break the treaty.

gomig21
12-02-2007, 10:47 PM
the problem with egypt is that they still do not have BVR technology.they have lots of F-16 but mainly block 30-40 and non BVR capable.they do not stand a chance in front of isreal,turkey and saudi arebia.

Why would Egypt care about Turkey or Saudi Arabia?!?!?? They will have BVR tech very soon...it will come in the form of a MiG 29 SMT or F-15E Strike Eagle if the US decides to go back to their deal.

blue44
02-07-2008, 11:20 AM
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/egypt-847m-request-for-125-m1a1-tanks-03684/

starman
02-28-2008, 09:13 AM
egypt has had the best military in the ME..
Imo it's the only arab country that knows how to fight ya gotta give respect to egypt.

Syria and Jordan know how to fight too but they need a lot more modern hardware.

hyperinflation
03-02-2008, 09:26 PM
very interesting read.

starman
03-03-2008, 06:20 AM
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/egypt-847m-request-for-125-m1a1-tanks-03684/


Interesting but still not enough. Israel has twice as many Merks.

SAAFpride
03-17-2008, 10:16 PM
egypt has had the best military in the ME for a while it's closing the gap on israel very quickly.
Imo it's the only arab country that knows how to fight ya gotta give respect to egypt.

man wtf have u been somkin lately "only arab country that knows how to fight* do u want me to remind u way back in the 70s when Egypt gave up and signed a peace treaty with Israel leaving Syria fighting alone? Lol have u even seen the Egyptian army lately? look at there inventory compared to other nations in the region.(and dont make me start on how poorly soilders in there army get payed) also look at there *soilders* badly equipped and most of em(soilders*) poorly trained due to large number....man go back to ur country and see ur nations army then talk bout its the only one able to fight... and i ant talking bout there 200 f16 and 1000 abram tanks........................look into there inventory............
and yeah Egypt is a strong nation....
but Egypt still have my respect..

starman
03-18-2008, 06:37 AM
man wtf have u been somkin lately "only arab country that knows how to fight* do u want me to remind u way back in the 70s when Egypt gave up and signed a peace treaty with Israel leaving Syria fighting alone?

Sure other Arabs know how to fight. For its size the Jordanian army was good.

d4b0mb
03-18-2008, 10:06 AM
man wtf have u been somkin lately "only arab country that knows how to fight* do u want me to remind u way back in the 70s when Egypt gave up and signed a peace treaty with Israel leaving Syria fighting alone?

Oh Really?

Do you want ME to remind you way back in the '70s (14th October '73 to be specific) when Egypt made a dramatic attack only for Syria to reduce the pressure on the Syrian front?

Do you want ME to remind you that in the first days of the War the Syrians were pushed back and the Israelis took control of the whole Golan heights again?

Do you want ME to remind you when Egypt made the peace treaty with Israel and the chance was there for the Syrians and Palestinis to win back their lands but they did nothing but calling Al-Sadat a traitor?


Lol have u even seen the Egyptian army lately? look at there inventory compared to other nations in the region.

Have you even seen the late BrightStar maneuvers with the US and its allies and some of the Arabian Armies?

(and dont make me start on how poorly soilders in there army get payed)

Would that affect the effency of the soldiers?

Plus EVEN if that was right why is my father having a pretty good paycheck every month from the Egyptian Armed Forces WHILE HE IS RETIRED?!


also look at there *soilders* badly equipped and most of em(soilders*) poorly trained due to large number

BADLY EQUIPPED????!!!!!!

hey can you tell me what kinds of equipments the Egyptian Army uses?


....man go back to ur country and see ur nations army then talk bout its the only one able to fight

Well maybe it is not the only county in the region which is able to fight but I guarantee you 100% that it is categorized as one of the first countries who HAVE the ability to fight fiercly.

... and i ant talking bout there 200 f16 and 1000 abram tanks........................look into there inventory............

Why don't you enlighten our eyes?


and yeah Egypt is a strong nation....
but Egypt still have my respect..


.......

Assad
03-18-2008, 11:03 AM
Oh Really?

Do you want ME to remind you way back in the '70s (14th October '73 to be specific) when Egypt made a dramatic attack only for Syria to reduce the pressure on the Syrian front?

Do you want ME to remind you that in the first days of the War the Syrians were pushed back and the Israelis took control of the whole Golan heights again?

Do you want ME to remind you when Egypt made the peace treaty with Israel and the chance was there for the Syrians and Palestinis to win back their lands but they did nothing but calling Al-Sadat a traitor?


.......

This is Crap...aka garbage.

History records that Sadat "the traitor" agreed with Assad a version of the an operational plan "he had no intention of every complying with" that involved a concerted push onto Israeli lines - producing a simulataneous attack on Israel on both fronts. What he actually planned with his own generals unbeknowst to syria, was a 10 to 12km push into the easter side of the suez canal that the egyptian army will hold and go no further (i.e. stop just under the egyptian SAM cover, again contrary to the plan Assad had believed in)...Hence Israel was able to amass all its effort on one front against repleling the syrian attack and successfuly stoping any progress...Sadat only made a half hearted effort to releave the pressure from the syrian front which was a disaster...these are facts of history...and yes sadat was a traitor...and your pathetic comeback on egpyt making a peace treaty etc ... is dishounrable - and a dishonor to all those who fought and died in that war from syria, egypt, iraq, algeria, sudan etc. The whole point why Israel made a peace treaty with Egypt was to remove it from the front lines of the arab world and NO more - no less (simple exchange of Sinai for surrender of the arab cause and peace, and some annual cash injection from the states).... there was no intention on Israels part to do likewise with either the palis or syrians cause they actually claim that land as theirs...they could never claim sinai as theirs...and again that is a fact.

I hope you get that, but if you cant or wont accept the facts....well the facts are what they are.

SAAFpride
03-18-2008, 03:25 PM
Have you even seen the late BrightStar maneuvers with the US and its allies and some of the Arabian Armies?

lol of course i saw it, Egypt only have most of there elite of there army in BrightStar and i saw a whole bunch of BTR-50s being used by the Eyption as a so called amphibious armored assault.(now thats wut u call modern right????.....)
Also i saw them do was jumps off of planes showing off there 1980s and up(produced) Abram tanks couple of f16s and other stuff



Would that affect the effency of the soldiers?
Plus EVEN if that was right why is my father having a pretty good paycheck every month from the Egyptian Armed Forces WHILE HE IS RETIRED?!

u gatta be kidding me stop ur lieng, so ur telling me a retired person gets more money then a solider,"pretty good paycheck*:roflmao3: i have an eygption friend
who was in the army telling me he hardly gets any money to pay for him and his family so dont make up ****.



BADLY EQUIPPED????!!!!!!

hey can you tell me what kinds of equipments the Egyptian Army uses?

the only "modern tanks and planes/helicopetrs u guys have are Abrams and f16s, apache, and other modern helicopters, the rest are OLD" T62s(and yes they still use them bout 500) BTR 50(mad old) some m60s( bout 1000 and up) "still operate mig 21s" and i can go on and on. so that answers ur question.




Well maybe it is not the only county in the region which is able to fight but I guarantee you 100% that it is categorized as one of the first countries who HAVE the ability to fight fiercly.


"fiercly"? yeah man we saw how ur country attacked a weaker country like Libya just to gain its strength to show westerners, but didn't have that aggression on Israels?. "AND" again why did Egypt sign a peace treaty with Israel if there "fierclyand apposes Syria on its actions towards Israel?



Why don't you enlighten our eyes?

cause u gatta face the facts those arnt alot of "f16s" and Abrams,"some" apaches the rest of its army is filled with outdated tanks amphibious stuff ( in thousands)




.......

is this a reply? i only have respect to the country's people not there government.
and the only reason why i said its strong is because of its size..





Oh Really?

Do you want ME to remind you way back in the '70s (14th October '73 to be specific) when Egypt made a dramatic attack only for Syria to reduce the pressure on the Syrian front?

Do you want ME to remind you that in the first days of the War the Syrians were pushed back and the Israelis took control of the whole Golan heights again?

Do you want ME to remind you when Egypt made the peace treaty with Israel and the chance was there for the Syrians and Palestinis to win back their lands but they did nothing but calling Al-Sadat a traitor?



AND AGAIN like frig why the **** did he sign a peace treaty of which Syria and them were at war with leaving it at war alone."first days" taking Golan heights? go learn some Syrian history then come back and post. the "chance" to make peace with them, we don't want peace with that country because they kill thousands of Palestinians and occupy and make aggressive actions. We arnt weak to give up like Egypt did, we have faith, and pride and soon we will liberate the Golan and Palestinian inshalah
and tell me why did Al Sadat get assassinated?thought so, al sadat is a retared piece of garbage(wasting the lives of many of his country's troops to then make peace with the enemy)

gomig21
03-18-2008, 10:28 PM
This is Crap...aka garbage.

Well, that's your opinion but I'll have to disagree.

History records that Sadat "the traitor" agreed with Assad a version of the an operational plan "he had no intention of every complying with" that involved a concerted push onto Israeli lines

Please provide a source to this claim because this is news to me. If you read most accounts, it was always a known fact that Egypt had limited capabilities and was only going to penetrate as far as it's SAM "umbrella" range and then assess the situation from there. Egypt had no intentions of mounting a full invasion of the Sinai to the Israeli lines because it was impractical due to its limitations thus (Operation Badr) - this was well know way before the war. The crossing of the Suez Canal in itself was a tremendous feat and much more difficult to achieve under the circumstances than what Israel had to do in '67 or Syria at the Golan Heights in '73. So, for you to claim that Assad had a different version of the "plan of attack" seems to me as a convenient excuse for Syria's distinct and unfortunate ineptitude to hold the lines it had gained in the initial part of the war and a slight sense of bitterness that, unfortunately, it is still mired in an endless conflict with Israel.


What he actually planned with his own generals unbeknowst to syria, was a 10 to 12km push into the easter side of the suez canal that the egyptian army will hold and go no further (i.e. stop just under the egyptian SAM cover, again contrary to the plan Assad had believed in)...Hence Israel was able to amass all its effort on one front against repleling the syrian attack and successfuly stoping any progress.

This is wrong information my friend. Israel didn't concentrate all it's effort on the Syrian front because Egypt stopped around 10 - 12 kilometers but because it recognized that the proximity of the Syrian front lines to the actual Israeli borders was more of an immediate concern than the Egyptian one since the Egyptian army still had to travel most of the length of Sinai and especially through the passes to reach Israel's borders so they figured they had some time to buy before dealing with Egypt - That's the reason and not the one you suggested. Again, I believe this is a convenient excuse.





..Sadat only made a half hearted effort to releave the pressure from the syrian front which was a disaster...

And this is why you call him a traitor!? Because Syria wasn't able to fight it's own fight?!?! Why the heck should Egypt have been obligated to relieve the pressure of a "disaster" in your own words. Do you know how many Egyptian soldiers died in that ridiculous attempt to relieve your army on the heights and this is the ungratefulness we get....shame on you! I only wish Sadat had listened to Shazly who didn't want anything to do with that suicide attack and spared those brave Egyptian soldiers their lives in an otherwise futile cause!



these are facts of history...and yes sadat was a traitor...and your pathetic comeback on egpyt making a peace treaty etc ... is dishounrable - and a dishonor to all those who fought and died in that war from syria, egypt, iraq, algeria, sudan etc. The whole point why Israel made a peace treaty with Egypt was to remove it from the front lines of the arab world and NO more - no less (simple exchange of Sinai for surrender of the arab cause and peace, and some annual cash injection from the states).... there was no intention on Israels part to do likewise with either the palis or syrians cause they actually claim that land as theirs...they could never claim sinai as theirs...and again that is a fact.

I hope you get that, but if you cant or wont accept the facts....well the facts are what they are.

I won't even comment on this because this is not the appropriate thread for this discussion but if you'd like to reply to my comments here, feel free and then we can take this to the "6th October" war thread and continue if you'd like.

gomig21
03-18-2008, 10:38 PM
Have you even seen the late BrightStar maneuvers with the US and its allies and some of the Arabian Armies?

uuhh yeah! And you think that Bright Star Exercise reveals all of any of these armies' full potential? If you do then there is nothing else to be said to your comments!

I strongly suggest that you educate yourself a little about Egypt's military capabilities and especially this laughable term "inventory" before making such ridiculous statements.....but I think I can figure out why you say them.....

Assad
03-18-2008, 10:56 PM
Well, that's your opinion but I'll have to disagree.
.

it is my opinion and historical fact...
Your disagreement has been duly noted and given due consideration it deserves...


Please provide a source to this claim because this is news to me. If you read most accounts, it was always a known fact that Egypt had limited capabilities and was only going to penetrate as far as it's SAM "umbrella" range and then assess the situation from there. Egypt had no intentions of mounting a full invasion of the Sinai to the Israeli lines because it was impractical due to its limitations thus (Operation Badr) - this was well know way before the war. The crossing of the Suez Canal in itself was a tremendous feat and much more difficult to achieve under the circumstances than what Israel had to do in '67 or Syria at the Golan Heights in '73. So, for you to claim that Assad had a different version of the "plan of attack" seems to me as a convenient excuse for Syria's distinct and unfortunate ineptitude to hold the lines it had gained in the initial part of the war and a slight sense of bitterness that, unfortunately, it is still mired in an endless conflict with Israel.

.

Please read any reliable history book.

Here is one Source: Assad the Struggle for the Middle East by Patrick Seale,Chapter 13 pages 195 onwards.

Please also research "Operation 41" aka "Granite Two" and operation "High Minerates" - both mentioned in Shazlys book.

As i stated Sadat Sold Assad a version of a plan he had no intention or ability of implementing. your statment on Syrias distinct bla is indeed unfortunate and clearly demonstrates your inability to accept facts of history - there is no bitterness just facts and reality - By stopping at the 10-12 km range Egypt allowed israel the chance to regroup, reprioritise and assess the situation to the detrement of both fighting groups, starting of course with Syria and following it up with Egypt - a nice one two. The real ineptitude of course, lies with the fact that sharon was able to cross the suez to the west side of the canal and threaten Cairo, with the third army completley sourounded.

This is wrong information my friend. Israel didn't concentrate all it's effort on the Syrian front because Egypt stopped around 10 - 12 kilometers but because it recognized that the proximity of the Syrian front lines to the actual Israeli borders was more of an immediate concern than the Egyptian one since the Egyptian army still had to travel most of the length of Sinai and especially through the passes to reach Israel's borders so they figured they had some time to buy before dealing with Egypt - That's the reason and not the one you suggested. Again, I believe this is a convenient excuse.
.

the information is correct and While your argument is convincing to the unknowledgeable, it is largely misleading please see above and patrick seales book/and Shazlys book - the reality is as i stated. the facts are they figured they had time cause nothing was happening on the egyptian front to worry them. they could deal with Syria first, the syrians had no idea of what was waiting for them - a full Israeli onslaught.





And this is why you call him a traitor!? Because Syria wasn't able to fight it's own fight?!?! Why the heck should Egypt have been obligated to relieve the pressure of a "disaster" in your own words. Do you know how many Egyptian soldiers died in that ridiculous attempt to relieve your army on the heights and this is the ungratefulness we get....shame on you! I only wish Sadat had listened to Shazly who didn't want anything to do with that suicide attack and spared those brave Egyptian soldiers their lives in an otherwise futile cause!
.

He is a traitor cause he sold out the arab cause for a piece of desert, some scraps from washington and a cold peace with an in implacable enemy of the arabs in the region. it has nothing to do with what your implying above, the shame is on you to dishonor those who fought and died from BOTH SIDES Syria and Egypt, your attitude and comment above is disgusting to be honest...after all both Syria and Egypt embarked on a TEAM effort and both paid a large price in blood and tears - or is egyptian dead more valuable than Syrian? disgusting...


I won't even comment on this because this is not the appropriate thread for this discussion but if you'd like to reply to my comments here, feel free and then we can take this to the "6th October" war thread and continue if you'd like.


see my comments above. As I already said, the whole point of the Camp David accords from an Israeli and Henry Kissingers perspective is to detach Egypt from the Arab camp and divide the arab rank and file. and this they did beautifully and Sadat was the guy who totally facilitated that objective.

Assad
03-18-2008, 11:33 PM
...further to your argument for a source about the fake plan sold to the Syrians please see the following source:

The Crossing of the Suez By Egyptian General Saad El Shazly

quoting directly from the planning chapter page 37 of his book:

"It was approaching April 1973 when General Ismail Ali told me he wanted me, after all, to develop our plans for assault to the passes-in effect, to revive Granite Two. Once again, in yet more long discussion, I went through the obstacles. Ismail could not fault my analysis. Finally he confessed the truth. It was a political instruction. President Sadat was in contact with the Syrian government. It was clear that if the Syrians realized that our plan was limited to the capturing of a line less than ten miles east of the canal, they would not go to war along-side us. My answer was that militarily I would prefer us to go it alone this time. Our success would encourage tthey Syrians to join us in the later rounds. Ismail rejected that course. It had beend decided that an alliance with Syria was a political necessity. I reiterated the preset military impossibility of Granite Two.

Finally, Ismail proposed a solution. He told me to prepare, separate from teh crossing plan, another plan for the development of our attack towards the passes. Details fo this, he said would serve to satisfy the Syrians. But he promised that it would never be implemented except under teh most favorable condidtions. "suppose," Ismail said, "the enemy suffered heavy losses to his air-firce during our crossing. Suppose he decided to consequence to withdraw his forces from Sinai, Should we say stay where we are because we have no plan?"

I was sickened by the duplicity. But I was bound to obey-and to keep the secret. Even in this memoir, I have been reluctant to divulge it, but the facts, however shaming, must be told. Nations, like people, learn by their errors. So, under orders, we prepared and disseminated a plan for the passes: an updated Granite Two, but to our own forces, at least, we did not conceal the truth"

QED. Facts of history.

here is the link to the pages from the book, check it out for yourself since this is news to you:

http://books.google.com/books?id=SPSkaqL945oC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=%22High+Minarets%22&source=web&ots=SeX1x9maTO&sig=DDOmq1WVDzy_Kq7WkE8oCNehDbI&hl=en#PPA37,M1

starman
03-19-2008, 06:50 AM
So, for you to claim that Assad had a different version of the "plan of attack"

Well in all candor, the Egyptians did fool Syria into thinking they would drive for the passes after the crossing. Syria may not have gone to war without assurances of such heavy Egyptian pressure on the enemy. When the Egyptians showed Syrians the map with the phony granite plan of attack, Shazly was "sickened by the duplicity." I think that was in THE EVE OF DESTRUCTION.


I only wish Sadat had listened to Shazly who didn't want anything to do with that suicide attack and spared those brave Egyptian soldiers

And much more--over 200 tanks; indeed it cost them the whole war. But you could say the Egyptians became victims of their own duplicity, since the Syrians were led to believe Egypt owed them that kind of support. Still in Sadat's shoes, I would've reneged, if only with a faked operation.:) And the Syrians originally got into trouble because of their own mistakes e.g. Assad's cowardly refusal to let his regime protection commando units be used to seize the bridges leading to Golan from Israel.

Assad
03-19-2008, 08:05 AM
Well in all candor, the Egyptians did fool Syria into thinking they would drive for the passes after the crossing. Syria may not have gone to war without assurances of such heavy Egyptian pressure on the enemy. When the Egyptians showed Syrians the map with the phony granite plan of attack, Shazly was "sickened by the duplicity." I think that was in THE EVE OF DESTRUCTION.




And much more--over 200 tanks; indeed it cost them the whole war. But you could say the Egyptians became victims of their own duplicity, since the Syrians were led to believe Egypt owed them that kind of support. Still in Sadat's shoes, I would've reneged, if only with a faked operation.:) And the Syrians originally got into trouble because of their own mistakes e.g. Assad's cowardly refusal to let his regime protection commando units be used to seize the bridges leading to Golan from Israel.


The Syrians may have made their mistakes but to call Assad cowardly because of above is shameful and a serious mistake and dishonor to the man and all other men that fought and died fighting Israel on multiple occassions. enough said.

starman
03-19-2008, 11:08 AM
The Syrians may have made their mistakes but to call Assad cowardly because of above is shameful and a serious mistake and dishonor to the man and all other men that fought and died fighting Israel on multiple occassions. enough said.

Don't get me wrong; Assad showed great courage for going to war and he deserves much credit for the rearmament and reforms that enhanced the Syrian military. Still, he shouldn't have placed the security of his own regime above his country's prospects. He should have made the commandos available to planners who needed them to seize the bridges. Failure to do so cost Syria and ultimately all of the fighting Arabs dearly.

SAAFpride
03-19-2008, 02:31 PM
uuhh yeah! And you think that Bright Star Exercise reveals all of any of these armies' full potential? If you do then there is nothing else to be said to your comments!

I strongly suggest that you educate yourself a little about Egypt's military capabilities and especially this laughable term "inventory" before making such ridiculous statements.....but I think I can figure out why you say them.....

"educate myself" i much more educated then u think, "but i think i can figure out why you say them" ok then tell me

gomig21
03-19-2008, 08:17 PM
Here is one Source: Assad the Struggle for the Middle East by Patrick Seale,Chapter 13 pages 195 onwards.

Fair enough, will do although I read some reviews that suggested it's quite biased in Assad's favor.


Please also research "Operation 41" aka "Granite Two" and operation "High Minerates" - both mentioned in Shazlys book.

I'm quite familiar with this book and both operations.


The real ineptitude of course, lies with the fact that sharon was able to cross the suez to the west side of the canal and threaten Cairo, with the third army completley sourounded.

I have no problem admitting ineptitude on the Egyptian side for allowing the Israeli penetration to the west side of the canal but, don't you think that protecting the gap had something to do with the Egyptian army losing 250 tanks and countless men in the ill fated attempt to relieve the pressure on Syria? As far as Cairo being threatened, I know you don't believe that and neither am I willing to suggest that the Israeli's could threaten Damascus despite being a lot closer to it than Cairo and within artillery range. A small dig on your part but that's OK.



the information is correct and While your argument is convincing to the unknowledgeable, it is largely misleading please see above and patrick seales book/and Shazlys book - the reality is as i stated. the facts are they figured they had time cause nothing was happening on the egyptian front to worry them. they could deal with Syria first, the syrians had no idea of what was waiting for them - a full Israeli onslaught.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. If you read most accounts, the priority for Israel was the proximity of the Syrian army to Israeli towns and cities including Haifa, Netanya and Tel Aviv and not the distant eastern side of the Suez Canal! Do you think maybe if the Syrian army had advanced into Nafah instead of stopping at it's outskirts after great initial success they might not have allowed Israel the time to set up a defensive line that ultimately turned the tide and just maybe they might not have faced such a terrible onslaught? I'm just not willing, as an Egyptian, to accept the sole blame from you for the debacle on the Golan Heights...sorry.





He is a traitor cause he sold out the arab cause for a piece of desert, some scraps from washington and a cold peace with an in implacable enemy of the arabs in the region.

A piece of desert? Our land, a historical biblical land, the Suez Canal, the Red Sea, the Gulf of Aqaba, Port Said, and perhaps the sparing of much more blood and death and the possibility of a brighter future for our country away from the perils of war. Assad, I would hope that you would see more to it than that. I don't see the Golan as a piece of grassy plateau but something much more than that.


it has nothing to do with what your implying above, the shame is on you to dishonor those who fought and died from BOTH SIDES Syria and Egypt, your attitude and comment above is disgusting to be honest...after all both Syria and Egypt embarked on a TEAM effort and both paid a large price in blood and tears - or is egyptian dead more valuable than Syrian? disgusting...

"Sadat only made a half hearted effort to relieve the pressure on Syria"

Wasn't that your exact quote? My answer to that never implied Egyptian dead being more valuable than Syrian...it was only an answer to your specific comment which undermined Egyptian lives. I hope you misunderstood me only and was not trying to misquote me.....

You're right, it was a "team effort" but please don't lay the sole blame on us and Sadat and at least accept some responsibility...fair enough?


see my comments above. As I already said, the whole point of the Camp David accords from an Israeli and Henry Kissingers perspective is to detach Egypt from the Arab camp and divide the arab rank and file. and this they did beautifully and Sadat was the guy who totally facilitated that objective.

Ok man, I know we're both Arabs and stubborn and I would much rather argue and bicker with the Israelis than with a Syrian brother.:)

HORAS
04-13-2008, 05:56 AM
a lot of anger with no reason. Calm down guys

ozkan
08-05-2008, 06:31 PM
interesting

qweasd1
08-06-2008, 01:11 PM
i started a thread in syria's section here under title some questions to the syrians and couldnt find asnwer , now they came here to egypt's section hope they can answer them

1-why many syrians till today still think that egypt stabbed them in october war leaving them fighting israel alone ? the syrians started to collapse from 8 oct when the egyptians were repulsing the israeli armor counterattacks and inflicting heavy losses on the IDF ?

2-why the syrians didnt follow egypt in peace in 1979 ,?and now they are negotiating with israel alone in turkey , and imo they will never get all they need , unlike 79 if egypt and syria negotiated together as they entered the war together , the situation would be much better than now while syria is negotiaing alone now .

(i have to repeat that the syrians are negotiating on golan only . (no palastenian cases involved in the negotiations so the palastenian card will not work to justify the refusal of 79 peace offer to them ) .

qweasd1
08-06-2008, 01:17 PM
But you could say the Egyptians became victims of their own duplicity, since the Syrians were led to believe Egypt owed them that kind of support. And the Syrians originally got into trouble because of their own mistakes e.g. Assad's cowardly refusal to let his regime protection commando units be used to seize the bridges leading to Golan from Israel.

i think that the defeat of some 1200 or 1300 syrian tanks against 170 israeli tanks in the golan is more than just
(egyptian duplicity ) . plus the faliure of 35,000 syrian infantries against few thousands israeli ais also other thing.
how by the hell in the world 1200 tanks can be defeated from just 170 ??
s-man you know that they statred to collapse in 8 oct while we were still busy repelling adan's counterattacks on our lines costing him the heaviest blows .
i always wondered where was the syrian army in the period from 9 to 23 october ? it never succeded in one battle during that period and it lost lands all the way long .

Axes
08-06-2008, 02:04 PM
i think that the defeat of some 1200 or 1300 syrian tanks against 170 israeli tanks in the golan is more than just
(egyptian duplicity ) . plus the faliure of 35,000 syrian infantries against few thousands israeli ais also other thing.
how by the hell in the world 1200 tanks can be defeated from just 170 ??
s-man you know that they statred to collapse in 8 oct while we were still busy repelling adan's counterattacks on our lines costing him the heaviest blows .
i always wondered where was the syrian army in the period from 9 to 23 october ? it never succeded in one battle during that period and it lost lands all the way long .


All true, but the Syrians did have a harder task in some aspects.

qweasd1
08-06-2008, 04:15 PM
All true, but the Syrians did have a harder task in some aspects.
in the northern sector only , but in the south they enjoyed may be 9 or 10 :1 numerical superority !!
i think that what happened that they rushed hastily to the golan thinking they are in a parade then after being hit with some bullets they rushed back to damascus hastily!!
unlike the egyptian units in the chinese farm which faced 2 israeli divisions in 15 ,16 ,17 oct before retreating back some few kilometers to the north (to missouri) after it made sharon's division less than 100 tanks .

Axes
08-06-2008, 08:00 PM
in the northern sector only , but in the south they enjoyed may be 9 or 10 :1 numerical superority !!
i think that what happened that they rushed hastily to the golan thinking they are in a parade then after being hit with some bullets they rushed back to damascus hastily!!
unlike the egyptian units in the chinese farm which faced 2 israeli divisions in 15 ,16 ,17 oct before retreating back some few kilometers to the north (to missouri) after it made sharon's division less than 100 tanks .



The Egyptians didnt really have to face 2 divisions. Most were held back in order to be fresh when crossing the canal. Allso, the Syrians had to deal with facing the IDF in modern combat, against an Israeli force much better prepared than the one stationed on the Suez canal, and with fewer forces at the Syrians disposal.

qweasd1
08-06-2008, 11:13 PM
The Egyptians didnt really have to face 2 divisions. Most were held back in order to be fresh when crossing the canal. Allso, the Syrians had to deal with facing the IDF in modern combat, against an Israeli force much better prepared than the one stationed on the Suez canal, and with fewer forces at the Syrians disposal.

one division(sharon) failed first to open tirtur road with high losses then came adan to do the jop with also bitter fighting .
the syrians had 1200 tanks and 35,000 men agains 170 israeli and few israeli (may be few thousands) , then they collapsed and retreated back to qatana and kiswe .
no single syrian could tell me why !!

qweasd1
08-06-2008, 11:18 PM
sorry gomig i know i ruin many threads here by oct war , but the syrian (brothers) opened the old issue of peace and war and i had to prove that thier claims are wrong .

Kermanshah1
08-07-2008, 05:49 AM
i started a thread in syria's section here under title some questions to the syrians and couldnt find asnwer , now they came here to egypt's section hope they can answer them

1-why many syrians till today still think that egypt stabbed them in october war leaving them fighting israel alone ? the syrians started to collapse from 8 oct when the egyptians were repulsing the israeli armor counterattacks and inflicting heavy losses on the IDF ?

2-why the syrians didnt follow egypt in peace in 1979 ,?and now they are negotiating with israel alone in turkey , and imo they will never get all they need , unlike 79 if egypt and syria negotiated together as they entered the war together , the situation would be much better than now while syria is negotiaing alone now .

(i have to repeat that the syrians are negotiating on golan only . (no palastenian cases involved in the negotiations so the palastenian card will not work to justify the refusal of 79 peace offer to them ) .

You do as if that peace-treaty is a good thing, no it isn't!

starman
08-07-2008, 06:12 AM
how by the hell in the world 1200 tanks can be defeated from just 170 ??

That's fallacious. The initial Syrian wave had about 600 or so tanks. More were sent in later but by then IDF reinforcements were coming in.


i always wondered where was the syrian army in the period from 9 to 23 october ? i

Largely demolished.

starman
08-07-2008, 06:16 AM
in the northern sector only , but in the south they enjoyed may be 9 or 10 :1 numerical superority !!
i think that what happened that they rushed hastily to the golan thinking they are in a parade then after being hit with some bullets they rushed back to damascus hastily!!

The Syrian faliure resulted partly from poor leadership. They could've taken the bridges but stopped prematurely.

starman
08-07-2008, 06:20 AM
The Egyptians didnt really have to face 2 divisions. Most were held back in order to be fresh when crossing the canal.

Adan's division, as well as Sharon's, fought in the area before crossing. It was Adan who crushed the 25th.


Allso, the Syrians had to deal with facing the IDF in modern combat, against an Israeli force much better prepared than the one stationed on the Suez canal, and with fewer forces at the Syrians disposal.

Forces in Sinai were somewhat bigger, and while the Syrian army wasn't as big as the Egyptian, it didn't have such a formidable barrier to cross, so it could commit a large tank force sooner.

Axes
08-07-2008, 06:27 AM
Forces in Sinai were somewhat bigger, and while the Syrian army wasn't as big as the Egyptian, it didn't have such a formidable barrier to cross, so it could commit a large tank force sooner.




The IDF was built and trained for scenarios where it has to deal with a large arab tank assault. Egypt's infantry based ATGM defence was something the IDF never trained for, which was one of the reasons the Egyptians were so succesfull at the beginning.

starman
08-07-2008, 08:48 AM
The IDF was built and trained for scenarios where it has to deal with a large arab tank assault. Egypt's infantry based ATGM defence was something the IDF never trained for

Still the Golan force wasn't inherently better prepared; Syrian tactics could've been different and Syrian forces available for immediate action at the start weren't smaller.

gomig21
08-07-2008, 08:52 PM
sorry gomig i know i ruin many threads here by oct war , but the syrian (brothers) opened the old issue of peace and war and i had to prove that thier claims are wrong .

No worries ya habibi Qweasd :) I only made the comment about you and S-man as a joke and didn't mean to offend either one of you. I just find it tickling when I see the two of you discussing this on 7 other threads!!!! :lol3: I don't think S-man thought it was funny though and I hope he realizes it was just a joke from me.

I agree with you about some of our Syrian brothers and it doesn't seem right to me that we should take the blame for what happened there don't you think so?

You do as if that peace-treaty is a good thing, no it isn't!

Kerman, elaborate for me please so I can see where you're coming from.

Kermanshah1
08-08-2008, 03:57 AM
Kerman, elaborate for me please so I can see where you're coming from.

You shouldn't want to have any peace with the Zionists, the goal is to destroy Israel, liberate Palestine.

Also it's disgracefull how your gouvernment suppert Israel over Hizbollah in the 2006 War and. Not to forget your support and contribution to the Siege of Gaza and your arresting of Mohammed Dief.:(

alokaa
08-08-2008, 04:22 AM
You shouldn't want to have any peace with the Zionists, the goal is to destroy Israel, liberate Palestine.
.:(

destroying israel isnt that simple,we know iran will fight for the last egyptian soldier ?

i dont support that peace anyway




Also it's disgracefull how your gouvernment suppert Israel over Hizbollah in the 2006 War and. Not to forget your support and contribution to the Siege of Gaza and your arresting of Mohammed Dief
they didnt they just said that arresting the 2 soldier will lead to a war and the also said that israel wont win the war

Kermanshah1
08-08-2008, 04:26 AM
destroying israel isnt that simple,we know iran will fight for the last egyptian soldier ?

i dont support that peace anyway

they didnt they just said that arresting the 2 soldier will lead to a war and the also said that israel wont win the war

You don't support the peace, but why do you than like Saddat?

alokaa
08-08-2008, 04:28 AM
You don't support the peace, but why do you than like Saddat?

i dont like every thing he did he is not an angel,everybody make faults

Kermanshah1
08-08-2008, 04:32 AM
i dont like every thing he did he is not an angel,everybody make faults

Zionists now don't even want to give Palestinians the West Bank and Gaza, only a small part of it...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0d/Settlements2006.jpg

alokaa
08-08-2008, 04:37 AM
zionists will never give anything to our palestinians brothers

Kermanshah1
08-08-2008, 04:42 AM
zionists will never give anything to our palestinians brothers

And your peace with them isn't reall helping...

smdw89
08-08-2008, 04:43 AM
zionists will never give anything to our palestinians brothers
You forgot that we exited from Gaza strip a few years ago...
And your peace with them isn't reall helping...
Of course this will help them, for both sides.

Kermanshah1
08-08-2008, 04:47 AM
You forgot that we exited from Gaza strip a few years ago...

There weren't many settlers there, it's a small worthless peace of desert and the positions where you are now in puts IDF in a strategical advantage and Palestinian Millitants in a strategicall disadvantage.

And great propaganda!

+ You're still controlling Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, so the occupation is not offically finished.

alokaa
08-08-2008, 04:51 AM
And your peace with them isn't reall helping...

i told you most the arabs doesnt support this treaty with israel and this peace treaty wont last for long

the currenr leaders of the arab world cant get in a war with israel unless they start acting like real brothers

Kermanshah1
08-08-2008, 04:53 AM
i told you most the arabs doesnt support this treaty with israel and this peace treaty wont last for long

the currenr leaders of the arab world cant get in a war with israel unless they start acting like real brothers

If we attack from the east, will you attack from the West?

alokaa
08-08-2008, 04:53 AM
You forgot that we exited from Gaza strip a few years ago...

Of course this will help them, for both sides.


you didnt leave gaza for peace you just couldnt continue there same that happened in lebanon

alokaa
08-08-2008, 04:55 AM
If we attack from the east, will you attack from the West?

if i was the president i wont wait for your attack :lol3:

Kermanshah1
08-08-2008, 04:56 AM
if i was the president i wont wait for your attack :lol3:

Gotta wait untill America moves out of Iraq though, otherwise there is no way for us to supply the forces in Syria and to get the forces to Syria in the first place.

KMS_Tripitz
08-08-2008, 05:28 AM
if i was the president i wont wait for your attack :lol3:

Why do you think the US sold Egypt all of those weapons. The US controls the supplies, ammunition and spare parts, let alone replacement vehicles, planes and ships for those trained crews. Egypt cant go to war unless the US supports it. The same with Isreal although to a lesser degree as Isreal has a number of world class militiary companies.

No two nations backed by the US have ever gone to war against each other, they simply cant. The US will support one of them which gurantees the other loses.

Kermanshah1
08-08-2008, 05:30 AM
Why do you think the US sold Egypt all of those weapons. The US controls the supplies, ammunition and spare parts, let alone replacement vehicles, planes and ships for those trained crews. Egypt cant go to war unless the US supports it. The same with Isreal although to a lesser degree as Isreal has a number of world class militiary companies.

Why do you think Arab countries are seeking to buy arms from Russia?

No two nations backed by the US have ever gone to war against each other, they simply cant. The US will support one of them which gurantees the other loses.

Jordan has always been a US-puppet and they have joined wars against Israel...

starman
08-08-2008, 06:02 AM
The US controls the supplies, ammunition and spare parts, let alone replacement vehicles, planes and ships for those trained crews. Egypt cant go to war unless the US supports it.

Despite being US armed Iran broke with the US in 1979. Egypt can make its own spare parts; they have arms factories.

starman
08-08-2008, 06:04 AM
i told you most the arabs doesnt support this treaty with israel and this peace treaty wont last for long

the currenr leaders of the arab world cant get in a war with israel unless they start acting like real brothers

That's the spirit.:biggrin1:

starman
08-08-2008, 06:07 AM
You shouldn't want to have any peace with the Zionists, the goal is to destroy Israel, liberate Palestine.


Pretty tall order but the attitude argues we haven't seen the last of warfare in the region.

Kermanshah1
08-08-2008, 06:10 AM
Despite being US armed Iran broke with the US in 1979. Egypt can make its own spare parts; they have arms factories.

And look what happened to us, the airforce was grounded for 6 years of war, resulting in total Iraqi airdominance, enabeling them to use chemical weapons on our troops (halting the advance and causing heavy casualties, this was the reason Iran accepted the truce) and on our civilians killing over 20,000.

Also due to the fact the artillery ran out Iran had to replace it with people... The whole military collapsed and Iran relied on a force of 500,000 volunteers to do human-wave attacks against the Iraqis. The war was basically letting untrained and badly equipped volunteers charge at Iraqi artillery until they reached the line when they slaughtered some of the Iraqis, the rest fleeing, this way they went from line to line.

Egypt has a large enough population to do it, but is this really what you want to do? Iran took 1 to 2 million casualties in that war, that's more than all Arab countries have ever lost in wars against Israel put together. Some battles costed as much as 40,000 men at our side, the largest one costing 65 thousan at our side and 40 thousand at their side, that's a lot! Are you prepared to take it?

qweasd1
08-08-2008, 10:27 AM
And look what happened to us, the airforce was grounded for 6 years of war, resulting in total Iraqi airdominance, enabeling them to use chemical weapons on our troops (halting the advance and causing heavy casualties, this was the reason Iran accepted the truce) and on our civilians killing over 20,000.

Also due to the fact the artillery ran out Iran had to replace it with people... The whole military collapsed and Iran relied on a force of 500,000 volunteers to do human-wave attacks against the Iraqis. The war was basically letting untrained and badly equipped volunteers charge at Iraqi artillery until they reached the line when they slaughtered some of the Iraqis, the rest fleeing, this way they went from line to line.

Egypt has a large enough population to do it, but is this really what you want to do? Iran took 1 to 2 million casualties in that war, that's more than all Arab countries have ever lost in wars against Israel put together. Some battles costed as much as 40,000 men at our side, the largest one costing 65 thousan at our side and 40 thousand at their side, that's a lot! Are you prepared to take it?

1-first of all i am with the peace treaty with israel

2-sadat was a human being with his errors and success but truth is relative according to the angle you look to it . you see that he sold the palastenians and the arab case , but i see it as he saved many lives (from both sides)that would have died for no specific achievments because israel's existence is saved by superpowers .
plus he invited arafat and asdad to join him but refused , in 90's they were desperate to get half what they could get .

3-i cant find any motive to lose my live and the lives of my beloved people because khoemeni said so .. (not stone cold :) ) , the war could be finished easily in 82 or 83 after liberation of the iranian lands , there was no need to such blood shed and lastly kheomeni was convinced that will not work forever and people are turning against him and the revolution . so why he was too late in accepting the ceaseire in 88 while he could simply sign it saving hundreds of thousands of lives that could have contributed to the progress of iran and could take care of thier recent 1 or 2 years kids who neve saw thier dadies .

4-who wants to fight israel ok , he is welcomed but not from egypt's lands and lets see his luck will be !!!
i can tell you that the syrians in golan 1973 were 3 or 5 times more motivated than the israeli defenders even according to the israelis themselves , but modern wars are not won by just motivation , (not like old wars)
but by organization , command system ,multi weapon co operation ,technology and better tactics in general .
good luck iranians hope that us will not make you back to the 14th century !!

KMS_Tripitz
08-08-2008, 04:01 PM
And look what happened to us, the airforce was grounded for 6 years of war, resulting in total Iraqi airdominance, enabeling them to use chemical weapons on our troops (halting the advance and causing heavy casualties, this was the reason Iran accepted the truce) and on our civilians killing over 20,000.

Also due to the fact the artillery ran out Iran had to replace it with people... The whole military collapsed and Iran relied on a force of 500,000 volunteers to do human-wave attacks against the Iraqis. The war was basically letting untrained and badly equipped volunteers charge at Iraqi artillery until they reached the line when they slaughtered some of the Iraqis, the rest fleeing, this way they went from line to line.

Egypt has a large enough population to do it, but is this really what you want to do? Iran took 1 to 2 million casualties in that war, that's more than all Arab countries have ever lost in wars against Israel put together. Some battles costed as much as 40,000 men at our side, the largest one costing 65 thousan at our side and 40 thousand at their side, that's a lot! Are you prepared to take it?

You are correct. Egypt cannot sustain a war with its mostly high tech American weapons with US support.

This is the main reason the US supplies such weapons to it allies, knowing it has some control over what actions they take as it controls the supply chain. No nation other then the USA, China and Russia can supply most of there own ammunition, supplies, replacements and so on. In any war these are used up radily and Egpyts military industries are far from being able to sustain it. Even isreal needed rapid resupply of some weapons during the war with lebanon and its militiary industries are far superior to Egypts.

If Egypt and Isreal go to war, you can beat the US will back Isreal and there for supply them with unlimited amounts of what ever they need. Egpyt would get nothing and its military cut of from spares, replacements, ammunition and so forth. Its own industries could only supply a fraction of what it needs. Of course Egpyt could buy weapons from other nations but this would then require a number of years retraining of its military personel in this new systems. Most system though would then be inferior to the US supplied Isreali weapons, resulting in a similar situation prior to Egypt being a US ally.

Egypts military is modern and powerful military. It can maintain this military power so long as it is a US ally. While recieving US military aid this means more egyptian money can go to developing its economy which in time will enable it to have an even more cable military. Egypt should continue to look long term and develop its economy and use US assistance to keep its military at the forfront of technology, making it one of the most formidable militaries in the region.

gomig21
08-08-2008, 08:57 PM
You shouldn't want to have any peace with the Zionists, the goal is to destroy Israel, liberate Palestine.

HUN!!??!?! That's just crazy dude! Destroy Israel and liberate Palestine!!!!! The first part is nuts and as far as the second, what do you think Sadat tried in 77 and remind yourself who refused after thousands of Egyptians shed their blood for all the causes you speak of? Who else ever cared for the Palestinians other than the Egyptians and Jordanians and now you want to lecture us about liberating Palestine!!!!! Your bravado is misguided Kerman, I'm sorry!

Tell me honestly....do you really care about the Palestinians or is it just a cause to support your hatred of Israel because of the possibility of an eminent and unfortunate war between Iran and Israel and possibly the US?


Also it's disgracefull how your gouvernment suppert Israel over Hizbollah in the 2006 War and. Not to forget your support and contribution to the Siege of Gaza and your arresting of Mohammed Dief.:(

Alokaa already answered that elequently so no need to repeat it.

If we attack from the east, will you attack from the West?

No offense bro, but I hope you never become a military general!!!!:)

1-first of all i am with the peace treaty with israel

2-sadat was a human being with his errors and success but truth is relative according to the angle you look to it . you see that he sold the palastenians and the arab case , but i see it as he saved many lives (from both sides)that would have died for no specific achievments because israel's existence is saved by superpowers .
plus he invited arafat and asdad to join him but refused , in 90's they were desperate to get half what they could get .

3-i cant find any motive to lose my live and the lives of my beloved people because khoemeni said so .. (not stone cold :) ) , the war could be finished easily in 82 or 83 after liberation of the iranian lands , there was no need to such blood shed and lastly kheomeni was convinced that will not work forever and people are turning against him and the revolution . so why he was too late in accepting the ceaseire in 88 while he could simply sign it saving hundreds of thousands of lives that could have contributed to the progress of iran and could take care of thier recent 1 or 2 years kids who neve saw thier dadies .

4-who wants to fight israel ok , he is welcomed but not from egypt's lands and lets see his luck will be !!!
i can tell you that the syrians in golan 1973 were 3 or 5 times more motivated than the israeli defenders even according to the israelis themselves , but modern wars are not won by just motivation , (not like old wars)
but by organization , command system ,multi weapon co operation ,technology and better tactics in general .
good luck iranians hope that us will not make you back to the 14th century !!

Well said!!!

Kermanshah1
08-09-2008, 03:57 AM
HUN!!??!?! That's just crazy dude! Destroy Israel and liberate Palestine!!!!! The first part is nuts and as far as the second, what do you think Sadat tried in 77 and remind yourself who refused after thousands of Egyptians shed their blood for all the causes you speak of? Who else ever cared for the Palestinians other than the Egyptians and Jordanians and now you want to lecture us about liberating Palestine!!!!! Your bravado is misguided Kerman, I'm sorry!

Jordanians, LOL, that puppet king of theirs didn't even want to join the 6 Day War, he only did because of the fear he might face public uprising. And during the war they preformed pretty awefull I must say, well, so did you...

And let's not forget what the Jordanians have all done to thePalestinians...:(

As for Egypt, Nasser did care, and he tried but Saddat... He sold out the Palestinians, and not only that, he also sold out his own country, that American puppet.

Tell me honestly....do you really care about the Palestinians or is it just a cause to support your hatred of Israel because of the possibility of an eminent and unfortunate war between Iran and Israel and possibly the US?

Most Iranians already hated Israel during the days of the Shah. The people are not anti-Israeli because of this regimes policies, the regime is being anti-Israeli to get support from the people.

qweasd1
08-09-2008, 05:46 AM
Jordanians, LOL, that puppet king of theirs didn't even want to join the 6 Day War, he only did because of the fear he might face public uprising. And during the war they preformed pretty awefull I must say, well, so did you...

And let's not forget what the Jordanians have all done to thePalestinians...:(

As for Egypt, Nasser did care, and he tried but Saddat... He sold out the Palestinians, and not only that, he also sold out his own country, that American puppet.



Most Iranians already hated Israel during the days of the Shah. The people are not anti-Israeli because of this regimes policies, the regime is being anti-Israeli to get support from the people.
then what ? what did you achieve to the palastenian case ?

starman
08-09-2008, 06:10 AM
And look what happened to us, the airforce was grounded for 6 years of war, resulting in total Iraqi airdominance,

That's certainly contrary to what I've read. US supplied and equipped Iranian pilots trounced the Iraqis in most air combat. It is true that lack of replacements eventually took its toll. But that---and resulting high casualties-- stemmed from political isolation, which shouldn't be a factor with Arabs fighting Israel--far from it.:biggrin1:

starman
08-09-2008, 06:13 AM
Most Iranians already hated Israel during the days of the Shah. The people are not anti-Israeli because of this regimes policies, the regime is being anti-Israeli to get support from the people.

Very interesting point, thank you. I suspect that, if the Egyptian masses had teir way, Cairo's policies would be more like Iran's.

starman
08-09-2008, 06:26 AM
If Egypt and Isreal go to war, you can beat the US will back Isreal and there for supply them with unlimited amounts of what ever they need. Egpyt would get nothing and its military cut of from spares, replacements, ammunition and so forth. Its own industries could only supply a fraction of what it needs. Of course Egpyt could buy weapons from other nations but this would then require a number of years retraining of its military personel in this new systems.

Even if so, I think one can assume that any future war years after an end of peace treaties and a new Egyptian oerientation. Egypt would not go to war immediately but when it is good and ready, with Russian, Chinese etc help.


Most system though would then be inferior to the US supplied Isreali weapons, resulting in a similar situation prior to Egypt being a US ally.

Even then it could've done far better; the main issue wasn't weapons but tacical leadership. And Russian etc weapons are world class.

It can maintain this military power so long as it is a US ally. While recieving US military aid this means more egyptian money can go to developing its economy which in time will enable it to have an even more cable military.

In fact Egypt could get far more money by repudiating its US connection, and the '79 treaty. It's risky to rely on the US, and not only because it means opposing the popular will. Uncle sam is hard prssed economically and may have to cut back on aid.

gomig21
08-09-2008, 08:22 AM
Jordanians, LOL, that puppet king of theirs didn't even want to join the 6 Day War, he only did because of the fear he might face public uprising. And during the war they preformed pretty awefull I must say, well, so did you...

Yes, you remind us quite often how poor we performed in '67. It's no secret and we'll have to hear it from guys like you for eternity and that's fine but tell me does it make you feel better to keep spitting it out? It happened and then only 6 years later with a new leadership we fought the Israelis and ended up keeping our gained territories but wait.....I know you'll remind us again we lost that one too just to stick it to us right? Does it make you feel good?:)


As for Egypt, Nasser did care, and he tried but Saddat... He sold out the Palestinians, and not only that, he also sold out his own country, that American puppet.

:lol3:American puppet!!! Your opinion is so shallow my friend! It had nothing to do with the most important cause of all right? EGYPT itself!!!! No more war, no more deaths, get our land back without another war, rebuild our country, seek new economic ventures and with all that he asked the Syrians and the Palestinians to join and they refused and now what??? It's funny to hear someone like you calling a great man who sought the best for his country a puppet!

I'll tell you what...since you're such an expert on what Egypt has done wrong and the right thing we should do or should have done......answer this question:

After the October war and its results.....what should Sadat have done?

Kermanshah1
08-09-2008, 09:40 AM
Yes, you remind us quite often how poor we performed in '67. It's no secret and we'll have to hear it from guys like you for eternity and that's fine but tell me does it make you feel better to keep spitting it out? It happened and then only 6 years later with a new leadership we fought the Israelis and ended up keeping our gained territories but wait.....I know you'll remind us again we lost that one too just to stick it to us right? Does it make you feel good?:)

Egypt got the Sanai back threw negotiation, in the Yom Kippur War you can say whatever you want about the consequenses of the war, that it suited Egypt but the fact is you did not achieve a military victory over Israel, under contrary, you lost most territory you captured and the Zionists crossed the Suez canal. At the end of the War both Egypt and Syria had less territory than they started with, Zionists withdrew to pre-war borders though in Syria and in Egypt you made a peace with them.

:lol3:American puppet!!! Your opinion is so shallow my friend! It had nothing to do with the most important cause of all right? EGYPT itself!!!! No more war, no more deaths, get our land back without another war, rebuild our country, seek new economic ventures and with all that he asked the Syrians and the Palestinians to join and they refused and now what??? It's funny to hear someone like you calling a great man who sought the best for his country a puppet!

I'll tell you what...since you're such an expert on what Egypt has done wrong and the right thing we should do or should have done......answer this question:

After the October war and its results.....what should Sadat have done?

Saddat should have never joined the American block, that's one thing.

What did Nasser do after the 6 Day War? did he recognise Israel and sell out the Palestinians to get his 60,000km² of desert back? What did Assad do after the outcome of the Yom Kippur War? And after the 6 Day War? ...
That's what Saddat should have done. We all know that Israel won't exist for long, you will get your land back eventually.

Kermanshah1
08-09-2008, 09:43 AM
then what ? what did you achieve to the palastenian case ?

Well first of all through Hizbollah we achieved the first Arab victory over Israel ever! Secondly we are one of the biggest supplyers/funders of Hamas which got that traitor Abbas and his forces expelled from the Gaza Strip. And Iranian backed groups Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are the main resistance against the Zionists.

Kermanshah1
08-09-2008, 09:46 AM
That's certainly contrary to what I've read. US supplied and equipped Iranian pilots trounced the Iraqis in most air combat. It is true that lack of replacements eventually took its toll. But that---and resulting high casualties-- stemmed from political isolation, which shouldn't be a factor with Arabs fighting Israel--far from it.:biggrin1:

We managed via canibalisation of our planesillegal imports and some (then secret) help from the West (which was an attempt to bribe Iran to make Hizbollah let American hostages go). Most airbattles during the War consisted of 1 or 2 Iranian aircraft against 4 to 8 Iraqi aircraft most of them won by our side.

We had a kill ratio of 5 -1 but we couldn't fly planes that much, that's why we couldn't support the troops on the ground.

qweasd1
08-09-2008, 09:56 AM
Egypt got the Sanai back threw negotiation, in the Yom Kippur War you can say whatever you want about the consequenses of the war, that it suited Egypt but the fact is you did not achieve a military victory over Israel, under contrary, you lost most territory you captured and the Zionists crossed the Suez canal. At the end of the War both Egypt and Syria had less territory than they started with, Zionists withdrew to pre-war borders though in Syria and in Egypt you made a peace with them.
.the diffrence between our crossing to the east and thier crossing to the west is huge and cant be compared at all .

we crossed at 2 pm (in the first time in history) throwing 5 brigades with more than 80,000 fighters destroying the ber-lev line (which was strong line not observation posts ) while the israeli crossing was made during dawn with one brigade in a narrow area which subjected them to the inferno of the egyptian fire , one day (the 17) they lost 300 killed and 1000 wounded !

another important thing that we croosed thier to stay in our land and thier presence on the west proved to be costly and bloody for them because they made themselves stationary targets .
the point israel made by its crossing was the