Israel's vaunted tanks are succumbing to Hezbollah's powerful missiles

[Jon Snow]

I thought you might be interested in reading this. Cheers.

By Benjamin Harvey
ASSOCIATED PRESS

1:45 p.m. August 4, 2006

JERUSALEM – Hezbollah's sophisticated anti-tank missiles are perhaps the guerrilla group's deadliest weapon in Lebanon fighting, with their ability to pierce Israel's most advanced tanks.

Experts say this is further evidence that Israel is facing a well-equipped army in this war, not a ragtag militia.

Hezbollah has fired Russian-made Metis-M anti-tank missiles and owns European-made Milan missiles, the army confirmed on Friday.

In the last two days alone, these missiles have killed seven soldiers and damaged three Israeli-made Merkava tanks – mountains of steel that are vaunted as symbols of Israel's military might, the army said. Israeli media say most of the 44 soldiers killed in four weeks of fighting were hit by anti-tank missiles.

“They (Hezbollah guerrillas) have some of the most advanced anti-tank missiles in the world,” said Yossi Kuperwasser, a senior military intelligence officer who retired earlier this summer.

“This is not a militia, it's an infantry brigade with all the support units,” Kuperwasser said.

Israel contends that Hezbollah gets almost all of its weaponry from Syria and by extension Iran, including its anti-tank missiles.

That's why cutting off the supply chain is essential – and why fighting Hezbollah after it has spent six years building up its arsenal is proving so painful to Israel, officials say.

Israel's Merkava tanks boast massive amounts of armor and lumber and resemble fortresses on tracks. They are built for crew survival, according to Globalsecurity.org, a Washington-based military think tank.

Hezbollah celebrates when it destroys one.

“A Zionist armored force tried to advance toward the village of Chihine. The holy warriors confronted it and destroyed two Merkava tanks,” the group proclaimed on television Thursday.

The Israeli army confirmed two attacks on Merkava tanks that day – one that killed three soldiers and the other killing one. The three soldiers who were killed on Friday were also killed by anti-tank missiles, the army said.

It would not say whether the missiles disabled the tanks.

“To the best of my understanding, they (Hezbollah) are as well-equipped as any standing unit in the Syrian or Iranian armies,” said Eran Lerman, a retired army colonel and now director of the Israel/Middle East office of the American Jewish Committee. “This is not a rat-pack guerrilla, this is an organized militia.”

Besides the anti-tank missiles, Hezbollah is also known to have a powerful rocket-propelled grenade known as the RPG29. These weapons are also smuggled through Syria, an Israeli security official said, and were previously used by Palestinian militants in Gaza to damage tanks.

On Friday, Jane's Defense Weekly, a defense industry magazine, reported that Hezbollah asked Iran for “a constant supply of weapons” to support its operations against Israel.

The report cited Western diplomatic sources as saying that Iranian authorities promised Hezbollah a steady supply of weapons “for the next stage of the confrontation.”

Top Israeli intelligence officials say they have seen Iranian Revolutionary Guard soldiers on the ground with Hezbollah troops. They say that permission to fire Hezbollah's longer-range missiles, such as those could reach Tel Aviv, would likely require Iranian go-ahead.



This seems (at least to me) as crown evidence that passive defence just doesn't cut it against modern ATGMs. It's time for everyone to start implementing active defensive measures like the ones russians use (drozd, arena, shtora etc.)

[Frisian Viking]

Do you think there is a reason why every other tank in the world has the engine in back instead of the front? Most vulnerable part of the vehicle and they put it in the spot that gets most hits... the front...

[ThronStahl]

Yes you're totally right,

However I wonder why the Hezbollah soldiers are not using strela and igla MPSAM to down the aircraft of the israeli aggressors.

[Jon Snow]

Do you think there is a reason why every other tank in the world has the engine in back instead of the front? Most vulnerable part of the vehicle and they put it in the spot that gets most hits... the front...

Don't get it. Are you saying that Merkava has engine in the front???? :confused:

[Jon Snow]

Yes you're totally right,

However I wonder why the Hezbollah soldiers are not using strela and igla MPSAM to down the aircraft of the israeli aggressors.

MANPADS aren't very effective against fast, high-flying targets.

[Frisian Viking]

Yes it does. In the rear is a small troop compartment.

http://www.3dcenter.ru/blueprints/tanks/merkava-ii.gif

The engine is to the right front of the vehicle. You can also tell by the position of the drive sprockets (in the front).

[ThronStahl]

Is this a military forum or some world of worcraft geeknest?

You mean there is someone here ignoring that the Merkava has a frontal engine???

Jeez, it's only been around for a quarter of a century!

Ok, ok, in 4 evolved incarnations...

[Frisian Viking]

Why are you using a WWII nazi symbol as an avatar?

[Jon Snow]

Is this a military forum or some world of worcraft geeknest?

You mean there is someone here ignoring that the Merkava has a frontal engine???

Jeez, it's only been around for a quarter of a century!

Ok, ok, in 4 evolved incarnations...

Jeeez! What's your problem?
Should I go and shoot myself for not knowing that Merkava has a frontal engine? Arrogant nazi dumbass. :mad:

[ThronStahl]

It's a SUN WHEEL!!!!

Heck, is there any real PERSIAN here????

[ThronStahl]

to jon snow, no, no use in shooting you, yet you could consider picking up a good book on tanks, the ATLAS of Modern Tanks would do just fine and I think you could find it at a bargain price, its latest edition is from 2003 but still more than up to date.

[Darkblade]

Thats no nazi symbol its is a religious symbol that been around for thousands of years and was Stolen by the nazis.

[ThronStahl]

Thank you Ermac, :-)

[Snauhi]

"Israel's Merkava tanks boast massive amounts of armor and lumber and resemble fortresses on tracks. They are built for crew survival, according to Globalsecurity.org, a Washington-based military think tank."

Yeah....

[Roy.cn]

Yes it does. In the rear is a small troop compartment.

http://www.3dcenter.ru/blueprints/tanks/merkava-ii.gif

The engine is to the right front of the vehicle. You can also tell by the position of the drive sprockets (in the front).

good picture,
thanks!

[Jon Snow]

to jon snow, no, no use in shooting you, yet you could consider picking up a good book on tanks, the ATLAS of Modern Tanks would do just fine and I think you could find it at a bargain price, its latest edition is from 2003 but still more than up to date.

No. I don't think I will. You see, I like reading a thing or two about guns when I have some time for it, but I'm not some militaristic gun nut that knows how many missiles some MLRS can fire in a minute or how thick is the armor on some specific tank. I'd rather read a good novel than a bunch of statistics.

If that bothers you, and you think I don't qualify to post on this forum then thats just your problem isn't it? :D

P.S. Besides, most of us here get our info via google & wiki, only some of you like to pretend that you're great experts, with years of war fighting experience. (No offence to those that actually do know what they're talking about)

[Parmenides]

The reason merkava 4 has it's engine in the front is to minimalize troop looses. The engine gives additional layer of defence, so even if a tank is damaged, there is more chance for the soldiers to survive it.

As to the AT missiles: Tanks, even good tanks, are not immune to AT-missiles. Their effectiveness is mesured by the percentage of AT-missile hits that damage or destroy tanks.
So far there were thousands of modern russian AT-missiles fired upon the Israeli tank. Only about 0.1% of Israeli armor was destroyed. I heard an estimate that it might be the best survival rate in such circumstances of any other tank in the world.
Many tanks were hit and not damaged, some were damaged but not destroyed, crew survivability is high. Friends of mine in the army told me that there is a general feeling the tanks are good and safe, and they see a lot of use.

[ThronStahl]

The rationale of placing the engine in the front made partial sense in a scenario of traditional armour meeting encounters, where you may be pretty sure that everything ahead is the enemy and everything behind is friendly.

Merkavas in lebanon are like lumbering mammoths that are often surrounded, ambushed and targeted by mobile, stealthy Hezbollah guerrilla cells.

The engine's frontal position means that every partial penetration will most likely damage the tank's mobility hence making the crew all the more susceptible to small arms fire and sniping when they leave its hulk.

Call me cynical but I would prefer to have one man wounded or killed in my tank and STILL being able to drive the vehicle away from the trouble spot.

[Parmenides]

Israeli tanks don't act alone. They are accompanied by other tanks and infantry (to counter surrounding stealthy Hezbollah guerrilla cells). If a tank is hit, there is evacuation by surrounding forces. The general sentiment in Israel is, it's better to lose a tank then it's crew, due to the importance of human lives.

It's true the merkava tanks aren't built to fight Hezbollah but rather a conventional army. However, Hezbollah can't conquer Israel, so it makes sense to build your MBT to oppose someone with tanks who might try to invade. That is the greater danger. Still, as i said only 0.1% of Israeli armor is destroyed, so they are OK fighting Hezbollah as well.

[ThronStahl]

Sorry but I think that operationally-wise the Merkava is totally unsuited to the nature, rhythm and pace of the operations in Lebanon.

Until Mubarak gets ousted and Egypt decides to drive across Sinai with its M1 abrams or until Syria buys Zolfaqar tanks from Iran and decides to retake the Golan heights the Merkavas would have not had a true field test.

They kind of one in the bekaa valley in 1983 and it's been less than thrilling.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Why are you using a WWII nazi symbol as an avatar?
He's not. Just because it has a swastika in it, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with WWII, or nazis.

[Frisian Viking]

He's not. Just because it has a swastika in it, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with WWII, or nazis.

Think I don't know that? But the symbol used here looks an awful lot like the black sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun), which is very much so a nazi related symbol :mad:

[ThronStahl]

Again, that symbol is a SUN WHEEL which has been a religious symbol linked to the HISTORY OF PERSIA for centuries, if not millennia.

Given the nature of this forum and my admiration of Persian Civilization, from Cyrus to the Seleucids to Shaphur to the present I thought it was an apt tribute.

This just in, another Merkava blown up by Hezbollah near Abbad, apparently no crewmen survived.

[Jon Snow]

This just in, another Merkava blown up by Hezbollah near Abbad, apparently no crewmen survived.

That's nice to hear! Well, with all respect for those poor bastardz inside that got blown to bits, but they were asking for it. :D

[AK54]

Sorry but I think that operationally-wise the Merkava is totally unsuited to the nature, rhythm and pace of the operations in Lebanon.

Until Mubarak gets ousted and Egypt decides to drive across Sinai with its M1 abrams or until Syria buys Zolfaqar tanks from Iran and decides to retake the Golan heights the Merkavas would have not had a true field test.

They kind of one in the bekaa valley in 1983 and it's been less than thrilling.
the merkava is slow, heavy, and built for crew survival. i think it is well suited for israels "operations"

the M1 abrams is built for speed and destroying other tanks, of course the merkava would be rubble.

[4X-IL]

It's very easy to say " look how those tanks get beated by the Hizballah ", but you can also say that from about 300 tanks that entered \ on the border with Lebanon, 3 was destroyed, but dozens and dozens was hit by Anti-Tank missiles and wasn't destroyed.

[tonahtiu]

It's very easy to say " look how those tanks get beated by the Hizballah ", but you can also say that from about 300 tanks that entered \ on the border with Lebanon, 3 was destroyed, but dozens and dozens was hit by Anti-Tank missiles and wasn't destroyed.
I think mora tanks was destroyed, more or less 12

[Parmenides]

Why would you think that?

[4X-IL]

I think mora tanks was destroyed, more or less 12


take down the 1 and add +1.

3 tanks was destroyed, arguieng about that wont help you, cause it wont change the reallity.

from more than 300, till now, we missed 3 Merkava MK2.

[Snauhi]

Again, that symbol is a SUN WHEEL which has been a religious symbol linked to the HISTORY OF PERSIA for centuries, if not millennia.

Given the nature of this forum and my admiration of Persian Civilization, from Cyrus to the Seleucids to Shaphur to the present I thought it was an apt tribute.

This just in, another Merkava blown up by Hezbollah near Abbad, apparently no crewmen survived.

Source... even Al-Jazeera dint report it

[globetrotter]

Source... even Al-Jazeera dint report it

Al-Jazeera is not a Persian site, but an Arab site. So it is not the best place to look for Persian symbols. I beleive the Hindus are the originators of the so-called "Swastika" symbol........

[ThronStahl]

The official Italian news agency did report it, aaron.

[ThronStahl]

to globetrotter: no aaron was referring to the fact that al-jazeera did not report the nth merkava casualty.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

take down the 1 and add +1.

3 tanks was destroyed, arguieng about that wont help you, cause it wont change the reallity.

from more than 300, till now, we missed 3 Merkava MK2.
I hope you don't mind me going off-topic slightly. I can't remember many facts about all those "which tank is best?" disccusions, but the M1A1 and Challenger 2 faced the Iraqi army, which was better equipped than Hezbollah and lost fewer tanks. This supports the argument that both are better than the Merkava.

[ThronStahl]

The Iraqi army could have been slightly better equipped, but surely was badly led and severely demoralized.
By the way I saw the pics of more charred and destroyed Abrams during the 'actual war' period than I care to remember, and I am not talking about the insurgency, which has destroyed plenty of Abrams' too, I am referring now merely to the drive on Bagdad.
So do not believe to everything that comes from u.s. and israeli sources, the fact that they subcontract their propaganda to various networks does not make it any true-r.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

The Iraqi army could have been slightly better equipped, but surely was badly led and severely demoralized.
By the way I saw the pics of more charred and destroyed Abrams during the 'actual war' period than I care to remember, and I am not talking about the insurgency, which has destroyed plenty of Abrams' too, I am referring now merely to the drive on Bagdad.
So do not believe to everything that comes from u.s. and israeli sources, the fact that they subcontract their propaganda to various networks does not make it any true-r.Intrayging.

[burster]

Mohmar,

I don't think Merkavas have the depleted uranium armor that the US and British tanks do. Also, Merkavas are constructed to save the tank crew, and less to stay healthy on the battlefield. This is why the engine is up front. Of course, with the engine up front, where most of the hits are likely to be, you are going to have a lot more disabled tanks. But the Merkava was built based on Israel's battles in the 1973 war. They found that they could get tanks back into battle fairly quickly, but the problem was getting good tank crews and cleaning up the tank on the inside where all the gore was. If you have a tank like the Merkava, with a quick turnaround time in terms of repair, you are likely to be facing the same tank over and over again with a new engine each time.

I hope you don't mind me going off-topic slightly. I can't remember many facts about all those "which tank is best?" disccusions, but the M1A1 and Challenger 2 faced the Iraqi army, which was better equipped than Hezbollah and lost fewer tanks. This supports the argument that both are better than the Merkava.

[ThronStahl]

Again mentioning the Ramadan War????

a) The Ramadan War was 33 yrs ago

b) It was a CONVENTIONAL CONFLICT, which involved the largest massed
tank battle since KURSK

I mantain the Merkava is totally unsuited to tackle a force so mobile and fluid as Hezbollah and it seems the facts are proving me right,

Hezbollah fighters operate in loosely connected cells supported by highly mobile mortar squads, which can be summoned to lay down supporting fire by any field commander with sufficient status and authority, several cells can join on a pinpointed objective, especially one as massive and lumbering as a Merkava from several directions with little to no forewarning signs, if the israeli commanders had not grown so smug and so overconfident in aerial support (a bad habit inherited by their u.s. stringpullers) they would have left the Merkavas home and would have brought more mobile pillboxes equipped with all-around traversable MGs.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Mohmar,

I don't think Merkavas have the depleted uranium armor that the US and British tanks do. Also, Merkavas are constructed to save the tank crew, and less to stay healthy on the battlefield. This is why the engine is up front. Of course, with the engine up front, where most of the hits are likely to be, you are going to have a lot more disabled tanks. But the Merkava was built based on Israel's battles in the 1973 war. They found that they could get tanks back into battle fairly quickly, but the problem was getting good tank crews and cleaning up the tank on the inside where all the gore was. If you have a tank like the Merkava, with a quick turnaround time in terms of repair, you are likely to be facing the same tank over and over again with a new engine each time.Hmm imagine this: "Alright guys, we've fixed up the tank real good for you but you'll have to put up with bits of your predecessors. Good luck, bye."

[burster]

Thronstahl,

Of course mention the Yom Kippur War, because that was the basis for the creation of the Merkava. Just because a war was 33 years ago does not mean its lessons aren't relevant.

And no matter how good the Hezbollah fighters are, they don't have staying power. Israel is fighting them with both legs and 1 arm tied behind its back, and 3 fingers of the remaining hand lopped off. If Olmert and Peretz were experienced warfighters rather than leftists with no idea about war and combat, this whole thing would already be over. Instead they listened to the IAF people who told them it could be done relatively bloodlessly. Fools. But I think they have learned the lesson, because the latest war cabinet meeting seems to indicate that they will be taking the gloves off, finally.

Again mentioning the Ramadan War????

a) The Ramadan War was 33 yrs ago

b) It was a CONVENTIONAL CONFLICT, which involved the largest massed
tank battle since KURSK

I mantain the Merkava is totally unsuited to tackle a force so mobile and fluid as Hezbollah and it seems the facts are proving me right,

Hezbollah fighters operate in loosely connected cells supported by highly mobile mortar squads, which can be summoned to lay down supporting fire by any field commander with sufficient status and authority, several cells can join on a pinpointed objective, especially one as massive and lumbering as a Merkava from several directions with little to no forewarning signs, if the israeli commanders had not grown so smug and so overconfident in aerial support (a bad habit inherited by their u.s. stringpullers) they would have left the Merkavas home and would have brought more mobile pillboxes equipped with all-around traversable MGs.

[NEWUSER]

But I think they have learned the lesson, because the latest war cabinet meeting seems to indicate that they will be taking the gloves off, finally.

More Israeli war-crimes coming to a Lebanese city near you.

Don't for a second think that rockets will stop falling on Israel, do not even dream of it.

Hezb'Allah from the first day of the conflict has said, we are ready to go on for a year..

[burster]

Newuser,

Right. But forgive me for not trusting arabs when it comes to reporting war news or bragging about what they are going to do, to whom, and how. "War is deceit." Mohammed said that, I believe. The trouble with arabs is that they tend to actually believe the deceit, rather than simply using it to fool their enemies. If Israel stops messing around and applies its full power and resources, Hezbollah's military wing will not last as a significant military force for another month in southern Lebanon. Note the caveats there. This does not mean Hezbollah rocket attacks can be totally extinguished. But it does mean they can be reduced to nothing more than a nuisance. The only reason Hezbollah has lasted this long is due to the incompetence of Olmert and Peretz and their fear of looking bad and taking casualties.

More Israeli war-crimes coming to a Lebanese city near you.

Don't for a second think that rockets will stop falling on Israel, do not even dream of it.

Hezb'Allah from the first day of the conflict has said, we are ready to go on for a year..

[ThronStahl]

Hey burster...Hizballahi fighters already shown they have a month of staying power, while generals in tel aviv bragged they would have been taken out in a tenday...

...give it some thought.

160 rockets on Haifa today, their ratio and frequency NOT EVEN SLOWN DOWN BY THE TERROR BOMBINGS!

[Mahati]

Hey burster...Hizballahi fighters already shown they have a month of staying power, while generals in tel aviv bragged they would have been taken out in a tenday...

...give it some thought.

160 rockets on Haifa today, their ratio and frequency NOT EVEN SLOWN DOWN BY THE TERROR BOMBINGS!

"Terror Bombings?" And what do you call those 160 rockets that are falling all over Isreal? Fireworks? Your hypocrisy is amusing.

[NEWUSER]

Right. But forgive me for not trusting arabs when it comes to reporting war news or bragging about what they are going to do, to whom, and how. "War is deceit." Mohammed said that, I believe.


That ok because I and most Arabs will never believe anything that comes out of Israel, so it’s fair and square.

You have used this in the past and I refuted it by pointing out the structure of that hadith’s and the fact it was taken out of pretext, you are just bringing lies into your comments to justify the lies that will follow, how embarrassing of you.

Once again I will correct you even though I know you and the like of Robert spencer will continue to twits words and accuse the prophet out of your intellectual bankruptcy... I'm certain you learned of this falsely-reported hadith in one of his many articles which spencer always uses.


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267:


The term war is pretext was taken from the following hadith’s, when the prophet stated it to refer to an event in the future.


Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit'.


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html)

[ThronStahl]

mahati, I don't know if you suffer from low-attention disorder but I will remember you that Hezbollah started firing rockets on israel IN RETAILATION for its indiscriminate bombing of lebanese civilian infrastructure, hence its actions would be covered by the right to reprisal, the same right that allowed the RAF to bomb Koeln indiscriminately after the luftwaffe raid on Coventry.

[Night]

Hezb'Allah rockets havent killed a single person yesterday :)

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Hezb'Allah rockets havent killed a single person yesterday :)while Israeli missiles and shells killed scores of civilians :)

[tonahtiu]

Israel wants expand its territory, they want water from litani river.

[kryp]

while Israeli missiles and shells killed scores of civilians :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vPAkc5CLgc&eurl=

rockets lunch close to civilians buildings :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0s_l8VYNP4

rockets fired from QUNA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC3kAWavYs4

thats why civilians die.
the know they should leave to the north. we always say them go north.
the knew and know that rockets lunch from their area, but they don't leave, so they will die.

[burster]

Newuser,

Now don't get mad just because people in the west are finally figuring out the fault lines in Islam. "War is deceit" is a perfectly valid thing to say for any war leader, an important part of the psychological aspect of battle. That is not important. What is important is that arabs, for whatever reason, tend to exaggerate their strengths and poo poo their weaknesses. The perfect example is Baghdad Bob, the spokesman for the Iraqi military during Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003. Now old Bob wasn't just saying what he did to try and convince a skeptical western news media. No, he actually BELIEVED the jibberish he was spouting. This is the disconnect many arabs seem to have between reality and fantasy. They think that if they just believe hard enough, reality will alter to match their beliefs. Which is true in a sense if you are the absolute dictator of a country, as the sultan of the Ottoman empire was and as Saddam was. The problem is that reality has a tendency to eventually bite such people right on the behind.

So if Olmert ever gets his head of his anal opening and stop dithering, you will see the reality of what the IDF can really do, rather than this mindless stooging around on the Lebanon border.

I don't put out much hope for this, however. The US is beginning to realize that Olmert is a clutz who doesn't have a clue in the military sphere. So they will try to bail him out at the UN. It will then be time for Hezbollah to cut a deal. They come out smelling like a rose and can reap in the praise and money for standing up to the ferocious IDF far longer than any other arab army has in the past.

Nasrallah better stay close to a bomb shelter, however. The IDF have long memories, and Mossad even longer.

That ok because I and most Arabs will never believe anything that comes out of Israel, so it’s fair and square.

You have used this in the past and I refuted it by pointing out the structure of that hadith’s and the fact it was taken out of pretext, you are just bringing lies into your comments to justify the lies that will follow, how embarrassing of you.

Once again I will correct you even though I know you and the like of Robert spencer will continue to twits words and accuse the prophet out of your intellectual bankruptcy... I'm certain you learned of this falsely-reported hadith in one of his many articles which spencer always uses.


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267:


The term war is pretext was taken from the following hadith’s, when the prophet stated it to refer to an event in the future.


Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit'.


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html)

[MrWanted]

while Israeli missiles and shells killed scores of civilians :)

(Unfortunatly) Today they did. However they aiming on lot's of objectives in these cities, as your beloved IDF has hide most of it's assests in urban area's.

Besided most of the people have already left the cities in North (eg Naharia today 12 000, out of 58 000) so it's getting really hard to find them ;)

What if south is getting some hit? Were would they go? Right into the sea? Let's hope IAF isn't going to bomb Beirut.

[Snauhi]

Newuser,

Now don't get mad just because people in the west are finally figuring out the fault lines in Islam. "War is deceit" is a perfectly valid thing to say for any war leader, an important part of the psychological aspect of battle. That is not important. What is important is that arabs, for whatever reason, tend to exaggerate their strengths and poo poo their weaknesses. The perfect example is Baghdad Bob, the spokesman for the Iraqi military during Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003. Now old Bob wasn't just saying what he did to try and convince a skeptical western news media. No, he actually BELIEVED the jibberish he was spouting. This is the disconnect many arabs seem to have between reality and fantasy. They think that if they just believe hard enough, reality will alter to match their beliefs. Which is true in a sense if you are the absolute dictator of a country, as the sultan of the Ottoman empire was and as Saddam was. The problem is that reality has a tendency to eventually bite such people right on the behind.

So if Olmert ever gets his head of his anal opening and stop dithering, you will see the reality of what the IDF can really do, rather than this mindless stooging around on the Lebanon border.

I don't put out much hope for this, however. The US is beginning to realize that Olmert is a clutz who doesn't have a clue in the military sphere. So they will try to bail him out at the UN. It will then be time for Hezbollah to cut a deal. They come out smelling like a rose and can reap in the praise and money for standing up to the ferocious IDF far longer than any other arab army has in the past.

Nasrallah better stay close to a bomb shelter, however. The IDF have long memories, and Mossad even longer.

They will see what IDF can do in the end of this week... For the first time IDF will be allowed to operate as a mechanized force.

And the new UN resolution will have Resolution 1559 in it!

[MrWanted]

Newuser,

Now don't get mad just because people in the west are finally figuring out the fault lines in Islam. "War is deceit" is a perfectly valid thing to say for any war leader, an important part of the psychological aspect of battle. That is not important. What is important is that arabs, for whatever reason, tend to exaggerate their strengths and poo poo their weaknesses. The perfect example is Baghdad Bob, the spokesman for the Iraqi military during Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003. Now old Bob wasn't just saying what he did to try and convince a skeptical western news media. No, he actually BELIEVED the jibberish he was spouting. This is the disconnect many arabs seem to have between reality and fantasy. They think that if they just believe hard enough, reality will alter to match their beliefs. Which is true in a sense if you are the absolute dictator of a country, as the sultan of the Ottoman empire was and as Saddam was. The problem is that reality has a tendency to eventually bite such people right on the behind.

So if Olmert ever gets his head of his anal opening and stop dithering, you will see the reality of what the IDF can really do, rather than this mindless stooging around on the Lebanon border.

I don't put out much hope for this, however. The US is beginning to realize that Olmert is a clutz who doesn't have a clue in the military sphere. So they will try to bail him out at the UN. It will then be time for Hezbollah to cut a deal. They come out smelling like a rose and can reap in the praise and money for standing up to the ferocious IDF far longer than any other arab army has in the past.

Nasrallah better stay close to a bomb shelter, however. The IDF have long memories, and Mossad even longer.

OUld you stop to give strategic comments? Again we have some I-know-you-pretty-well dude talking about Baghdad Bob. Well Baghdad Bob was one guy when everybody else was saying what was happening. He was a great source of amusement.

NOWADAYS we don't need Baghdad Bob because we have Bobs from Shemona to Tel Aviv. yeah Ok you just reached Litani, NOT. Even not from the eastern border which would be less than 2 hours walking.

YOU WAS THE GENIUS GUY WHO STATED THAT GO FOR BENT JUBAIL, FROM THEN IT"S A ROLL DOWN THE HILL TO LITANI RIGHT?

I can't quote you because of the incident with this forum.

After IDF has been incompetent on the battlefield with guns, instead of stones, all to blame is Olmert? And you think the hype about most overrated military will stay a life?

[MrWanted]

They will see what IDF can do in the end of this week... For the first time IDF will be allowed to operate as a mechanized force.

And the new UN resolution will have Resolution 1559 in it!

This is the 5th week your government is stating this... please give us a new oneliner, we are patientless.

I realy can't imagine what they would do, that haven't been tried by now, beside going to chemicals and napalms type of weapons which is a clear war crime. However in your zionist mind everything is allowed against Maggots.

[Night]

This is the 5th week your government is stating this... please give us a new oneliner, we are patientless.

I realy can't imagine what they would do, that haven't been tried by now, beside going to chemicals and napalms type of weapons which is a clear war crime. However in your zionist mind everything is allowed against Maggots.

Chemicals and Napalm :rolleyes: I don't know what your smoking but it must work well...

[PersianPrince]

They use Napalm,Cluster bombs,and Phosphereous gas all banned by the Geneva Convention.

[PersianChico]

i love russian rpg

[NEWUSER]

http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2006/8/10/1_637444_1_34.jpg

Picture from todays fight

http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8703FC72-ECC0-4716-BA2A-837ECB649333.htm

[seraosha]

AK-47, n00b.

[PersianChico]

hi noob nice to meet you..so stfu

[kryp]

They use Napalm,Cluster bombs,and Phosphereous gas all banned by the Geneva Convention.

moron , we don't use those weapons. if we use napalm, we will win in few days,every singel terrorist will die.

stop the lies, dumb.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vPAkc5CLgc&eurl=

rockets lunch close to civilians buildings :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0s_l8VYNP4

rockets fired from QUNA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC3kAWavYs4

thats why civilians die.
the know they should leave to the north. we always say them go north.
the knew and know that rockets lunch from their area, but they don't leave, so they will die.
If that's your excuse don't get mad when Israeli civilians are roasted. After all, soldiers are often based near civilians in Israel too. Hezbollah also warns Israeli civilians of attacks, just like Israel.

[Night]

If that's your excuse don't get mad when Israeli civilians are roasted. After all, soldiers are often based near civilians in Israel too. Hezbollah also warns Israeli civilians of attacks, just like Israel.

Israeli bases are based near civilians to protect the civilians. Hezb'Allah bases itself near the civilians to protect Hezb'Allah. Hezb'Allah doesn't really care about civilians, they pretend to and whine about it to the international community, HA is the cause of so many civilian casualties.

[NEWUSER]

Israeli bases are based near civilians to protect the civilians. Hezb'Allah bases itself near the civilians to protect Hezb'Allah.

It’s allowed for us and forbidden for them; mother of all hypocrisy.

You were better off staying quiet!

:roflmao3:

[MrWanted]

Israeli bases are based near civilians to protect the civilians. Hezb'Allah bases itself near the civilians to protect Hezb'Allah. Hezb'Allah doesn't really care about civilians, they pretend to and whine about it to the international community, HA is the cause of so many civilian casualties.

:worried2:

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Israeli bases are based near civilians to protect the civilians.If that was the case, then they were doing a piss-poor job :p Tell, me, how exactly do you defend against Katyusha rockets?
Hezb'Allah bases itself near the civilians to protect Hezb'Allah

Hezb'Allah doesn't really care about civilians, they pretend to and whine about it to the international community, HA is the cause of so many civilian casualties.^The usual rethoric:3eyes4:

[Vane]

Hey guys about the patrols that are gaurding the merkava4 during the war
they got roasted too. a group aim there rocket launchers at them and another group at the merkava4.too easy.Plus I have evidence in the quran that says that the jews love there life more than anything and the proof is
that Merkava=Survival.I dont get it how do they fight if they are scared
for there life?

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Plus I have evidence in the quran that says that the jews love there life more than anything:roflmao3:

and the proof is
that Merkava=Survival.I dont get it how do they fight if they are scared
for there life?
Dead soldiers don't fight very well, do they? For a fighting force to be successful they must protect their own lives, especially if their numbers are of the same order of magnitude as the enemy's.

[Vane]

wait I get so they shoot a bullet then hide then shoot another bullet then hide.It sounds pretty noobish.CMON FACE ME IF YOU ARE A MAN.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Any tactic that is not readily counterable has been labelled as cowardice throughout history (suicide bombing, high-altitude bombing etc). If I ever fight, I fight to win and live, not to "be a man".

[Vane]

MAN.Jihad learned us not to takecare for our life.GIVE ME VICTORY OR GIVE ME DEATH.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

MAN.Jihad learned us not to takecare for our life.GIVE ME VICTORY OR GIVE ME DEATH.Whatever. It's not a teaching I intend to follow.

[Power_Serj]

Hey guys about the patrols that are gaurding the merkava4 during the war
they got roasted too. a group aim there rocket launchers at them and another group at the merkava4.too easy.Plus I have evidence in the quran that says that the jews love there life more than anything and the proof is
that Merkava=Survival.I dont get it how do they fight if they are scared
for there life?

Loving life has nothing to do with being scared in combat. One can love life and be brave in combat.


MAN.Jihad learned us not to takecare for our life.GIVE ME VICTORY OR GIVE ME DEATH.

Exactly because religious political leaders use so called "jihadists" to fight for them.They misuse religion to brainwash into having people to fight for them. You don't see the high leaders suicide bombing or fighting in combat, do you? Look at Osama, he's a jihadist. Shouldn't he be fighting "infidels" and risking or sacrificing his life? He's out hiding in the mountains, why doesn't he sacrifice his life? Because he already has loyal people who will die for him. I bet he doesn't want to die. His hiding in the mountains proves it.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Shouldn't he be fighting "infidels" and risking or sacrificing his life? He's out hiding in the mountains, why doesn't he sacrifice his life? Because he already has loyal people who will die for him. I bet he doesn't want to die. His hiding in the mountains proves it.
Bin Laden may not be willing to sacrifice his like like a suicide bomber would but he certainly has been risking it for his cause ever since he took up arms against the Soviets.

[mirza]

Why are you using a WWII nazi symbol as an avatar?

to educate guys like you , how swastika was used in different parts of the ancient world without any realtions to the nazi germany

[mig21bis]

Well said Mirza....not all who use swastika are nazis....here is first swastika used in Finland in first FAF aircraft when Swedish Count Von Rosen granted Thulin Typ D Morane Saulnier plane to Finland....

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_Parasol

See swastika in wing....year was 1918....and before nazis ;)

[mango994]

The tanks aren't succumbing.
How many tanks were inside lebanon? nearly thousand.
How many tanks were destroyed? few.
How many of them were Merkava 4? NONE.

It's all statistics. The Iraqis also managed to take down some american abrahamses, should we put them out of use?

[WGREE2]

As far as I have read those Merkava's faired quite well. If it had been any other tank the losses would have been much higher.

[mirza]

Well said Mirza....not all who use swastika are nazis....here is first swastika used in Finland in first FAF aircraft when Swedish Count Von Rosen granted Thulin Typ D Morane Saulnier plane to Finland....

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_Parasol

See swastika in wing....year was 1918....and before nazis ;)

bravo , the blue swastika ,here is another 1 being used in modern times :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Ilmav_SK_ja_lippu.jpg

and this one from pre-achamenid rasht in northern iran lol :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Swastika_iran.jpg

but it's interesting how different relegions' obsession with this symbol (from korea and japan to pre colonial america) may suggest all relegions origin from a big ancient bullcrap


i guess awhile ago there was a similar dispute about the roman salute after an italian soccer player got punished for doing it in front of a crowd

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

As far as I have read those Merkava's faired quite well. If it had been any other tank the losses would have been much higher.ANY other tank? What about Leo2A5+, Leclerc or M1A2?

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

but it's interesting how different relegions' obsession with this symbol (from korea and japan to pre colonial america) may suggest all relegions origin from a big ancient bullcrap:roflmao3:

i guess awhile ago there was a similar dispute about the roman salute after an italian soccer player got punished for doing it in front of a crowdI'm pretty sure in that instance it was intended to be a fascist salute. Punishing it, however, is retarded, IMO. You don't hurt anybody by doing it, you just look like a dumbass :D

[mirza]

:roflmao3:

I'm pretty sure in that instance it was intended to be a fascist salute. Punishing it, however, is retarded, IMO. You don't hurt anybody by doing it, you just look like a dumbass :D

i dont know the details , i just remember those who were defending argued that the gesture was actually a roman salute and still common in that part of italy

[WGREE2]

ANY other tank? What about Leo2A5+, Leclerc or M1A2?

Nope, the merkava is the most heavily armoured MBT around. Sloping turret and engine place in the front for added crew protection. There were quite a few merkavas hit and were still salvagable.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

i dont know the details , i just remember those who were defending argued that the gesture was actually a roman salute and still common in that part of italyI kinda doubt that, but I've not been in Rome often.

Hey I just noticed your Yuri Red Alert 2 signature :DNope, the merkava is the most heavily armoured MBT around. Sloping turret and engine place in the front for added crew protection. There were quite a few merkavas hit and were still salvagable.Crew protection perhaps, but not engine protection. There were quite a few M1s hit in other wars that were still salvageable.

[mango994]

Guys, it's all statistics.
Compare the number of the destroyed Merkavas to the number of Merkavas that were active inside Lebanon. It's nothing. It's all media noise.
Country X and country Y wage a war. Country X has 1,000 soldiers, and only one was killed, while many on Y's side were killed.
The whole media makes a huge noise of the single dead soldier on X side, to such a level that it looks like a serious damage.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

Guys, it's all statistics.
Compare the number of the destroyed Merkavas to the number of Merkavas that were active inside Lebanon. It's nothing. It's all media noise.
Country X and country Y wage a war. Country X has 1,000 soldiers, and only one was killed, while many on Y's side were killed.
The whole media makes a huge noise of the single dead soldier on X side, to such a level that it looks like a serious damage.Well if you replace "soldiers" with tanks, country X had 1,000 of them, while country Y had 0.

[mango994]

Country Y had RPGs, it doesn't matter.

[Tallgeese]

The tanks aren't succumbing.
How many tanks were inside lebanon? nearly thousand.
How many tanks were destroyed? few.
How many of them were Merkava 4? NONE.

Actually if a 1,000 tanks are inside Lebanon then it's odious to think that they didn't achieve the objectives of preventing Hezbollah rockets. Either that or they were sight seeing. What's more, most statistics suggest that upwards of 200-250 Israeli Merkavas were sent (Mk.1 - Mk.4) & if the combat was enough to suggest that Merkava Mk.4 production should be halted then obviously there are teething issues with the tank & room for improvement. In fact, of the 50 tanks hit (according to reliable sources) some 30 Israelis were killed. Considering how all Israel's tanks have a crew of four, that translates to 15% casualty rate (dead) & with 100 injuries, that's another set of casualties.

In total, if you have 130/400 crew members who were injured in one form or another on face value that may seem to suggest that a majority of casualties were in Israel's older tanks. However, according to Israeli sources, Hezbollah used clever 'selection' processes, & used the latest ATGW on the latest armour (Merkava Mk.3B/Mk.4) & older systems on the older armour (M-60A3, M-48A7 etc) that & the halting of Merkava Mk.4 production for a while suggests that the tank didn't fare as well as the Israelis had hoped, or a Merkava Mk.4B is intended for production to surpass the basic Mk.4.

My own analysis is that Israel's Merkava Mk.4B or Mk.5 (whatever it's called) will be tested against the Metis M & other ATGW before it is put into production & that the Merkava Mk.4 (from reliable sources) didn't perform as it was expected. Part of the problem was with flawed Israeli tactics to begin with, but the main thing is the fighting standard of Hezbollah that undid Israeli operations.

One interpretation of the statistics was Israel's reluctance to engage in combat with Hezbollah & this is evidenced by the fact that everytime engagements did occur Israel suffered heavy losses. In retrospect, the Israelis' cautious approach may have minimised casualties (the good news for Israel) but at the same time didn't help them put out the rockets (the bad news for Israel) due largely to Hezbollah's excellent defensive posture, & hard-hitting approach. Rather than 'hit & run' in the traditional sense, Hezbollah would 'hit' & the Israelis would 'run' (or regroup) & decide on how to strike again.

Concealment, surprise, stealth & the advantage of position proved to be the evening factor for Hezbollah.

It's all statistics. The Iraqis also managed to take down some american abrahamses, should we put them out of use?

The Americans have admitted to the inferiority of the M-1A2 to the Challenger 2, & they also admit that it's in need of modification. The KORNET (designed for DU armoured tanks) undid US 'Abrams' in Iraq where the METIS (designed for ERA equipped tanks) did to the Merkava. Obviously Russian weaponry at its best is a devastating force, particularly against sub-standard equipment.

Why do you think a majority of NATO allies have opted for the Leopard 2A4, which isn't even the best in Germany's inventory? The Leopard 2A5/A6 series, & the Swedish variant are unequivocally the best tanks in the world today.

[mango994]

It's easy to listen when they say the MK4 is halted, but it's way harder to listen when they say that the project was resumed since no problems were found with the MK4. Tough, isn't it?

Israeli troops suffered losses, but have u thought of the HA losses? and considering that Hizbolla was defending a territory it prepared for such an attack for 6 years? We didn't prepare. At all. The government's call to attack hizbolla in response to the kidnap was sudden, kinda surprising. Hizbolla prepared ambushes, holdings and plans for 6 years, since they are the aggressors, and they are the ones to make the first strike, which will invite israel into south lebanon.
Israel, on the other hand, wasn't thinking of a conflict with hizbolla. Since 2000 most conflicts were very small, along the border.
Next time, we'll be prepared too. And then we'll see.

[mirza]

Hey I just noticed your Yuri Red Alert 2 signature :D

it might sound funny but i actually believe in it , not of course the way yuri did

[4X-IL]

Actually if a 1,000 tanks are inside Lebanon then it's odious to think that they didn't achieve the objectives of preventing Hezbollah rockets. Either that or they were sight seeing. What's more, most statistics suggest that upwards of 200-250 Israeli Merkavas were sent (Mk.1 - Mk.4) & if the combat was enough to suggest that Merkava Mk.4 production should be halted then obviously there are teething issues with the tank & room for improvement. In fact, of the 50 tanks hit (according to reliable sources) some 30 Israelis were killed. Considering how all Israel's tanks have a crew of four, that translates to 15% casualty rate (dead) & with 100 injuries, that's another set of casualties.

In total, if you have 130/400 crew members who were injured in one form or another on face value that may seem to suggest that a majority of casualties were in Israel's older tanks. However, according to Israeli sources, Hezbollah used clever 'selection' processes, & used the latest ATGW on the latest armour (Merkava Mk.3B/Mk.4) & older systems on the older armour (M-60A3, M-48A7 etc) that & the halting of Merkava Mk.4 production for a while suggests that the tank didn't fare as well as the Israelis had hoped, or a Merkava Mk.4B is intended for production to surpass the basic Mk.4.

My own analysis is that Israel's Merkava Mk.4B or Mk.5 (whatever it's called) will be tested against the Metis M & other ATGW before it is put into production & that the Merkava Mk.4 (from reliable sources) didn't perform as it was expected. Part of the problem was with flawed Israeli tactics to begin with, but the main thing is the fighting standard of Hezbollah that undid Israeli operations.

One interpretation of the statistics was Israel's reluctance to engage in combat with Hezbollah & this is evidenced by the fact that everytime engagements did occur Israel suffered heavy losses. In retrospect, the Israelis' cautious approach may have minimised casualties (the good news for Israel) but at the same time didn't help them put out the rockets (the bad news for Israel) due largely to Hezbollah's excellent defensive posture, & hard-hitting approach. Rather than 'hit & run' in the traditional sense, Hezbollah would 'hit' & the Israelis would 'run' (or regroup) & decide on how to strike again.

Concealment, surprise, stealth & the advantage of position proved to be the evening factor for Hezbollah.



The Americans have admitted to the inferiority of the M-1A2 to the Challenger 2, & they also admit that it's in need of modification. The KORNET (designed for DU armoured tanks) undid US 'Abrams' in Iraq where the METIS (designed for ERA equipped tanks) did to the Merkava. Obviously Russian weaponry at its best is a devastating force, particularly against sub-standard equipment.

Why do you think a majority of NATO allies have opted for the Leopard 2A4, which isn't even the best in Germany's inventory? The Leopard 2A5/A6 series, & the Swedish variant are unequivocally the best tanks in the world today.


Sorry mate but you're totally wrong here.

The Merkava MK4 was a total success in Lebanon.
Its production was halted for about a week after the war, so the IDF will see what happened with it in Lebanon.
After the investigation started, it was obvious from the beginning that the Mark 4 was almost undefeatable in Lebanon.
One single tank was knocked out, preparable, but knocked out, and it was after not less than 8 Anti-Tank missiles hit it, I assume some hit in a sensetive spot.
There were reports about MK4's that was hit 13 hits, most of it direct hits, and none stopped, with all systems online.

The Production of the Merkava continued, and stopping it is not in the plan right now.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

it might sound funny but i actually believe in it , not of course the way yuri didIn a way it's true since the brain definitely sends signals out to activate muscles.

[mirza]

In a way it's true since the brain definitely sends signals out to activate muscles.

that s true , but i was thinking of it in another way , based on the stuff i ve read about different ways of thinking and their association with the two halves of brain ,
if u read the book "in the mind's eye" they talk about how a unique way of thought process could lead to one's immunity to propaganda and.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picture_thinking

[Tallgeese]

It's easy to listen when they say the MK4 is halted, but it's way harder to listen when they say that the project was resumed since no problems were found with the MK4. Tough, isn't it?

Project hasn't as yet resumed at full pace. One Israeli commentator suggested that it wasn't related to the summer conflict but dur to technical & production issues. However, it's clear that the Merkava Mk.4B (or Mk.5?) will be produced & derive many lessons from the 2006 conflict.

Israeli troops suffered losses, but have u thought of the HA losses?

Hezbollah losses aren't as big an issue, plus 130-150 Israeli military casualties versus some 250 Hezbollah isn't new, as Hezbollah generally took heavier casualties. In gurriella warfare that's generally the case. The Viet Cong & NVA (North Vietnamese Army) suffered many more losses than the Americans in combat, & the Afghan rebels suffered far greater losses to the Soviets during that conflict.

Furthermore, Israel has planes, tanks, expensive (& 'smart') artillary etc & high power precison weaponry, compared to what one Israeli called of Hezbollah's 'junky' rockets. Well, obviously in proportion to firepower Hezbollah's losses in men & material were modest by comparison of what Israel should have, would have, could have achived.

What else is new?

and considering that Hizbolla was defending a territory it prepared for such an attack for 6 years? We didn't prepare. At all. The government's call to attack hizbolla in response to the kidnap was sudden, kinda surprising.

& due to six years of preparation, Israel was unable to defeat or dislodge Hezbollah & didn't (despite gaining a hold on Lebanese territory) stop the rockets Hezbollah fired en-mass into Israel. In the end, Israel suffered losses on the ground where the real fight was, & didn't do much to stop the rockets. Put another way, 300 rockets were fired into Israel some 24-36 hours before the ceasefire went into effect (I think it was the second or third highest volly) so ask yourself, what did your offensive acheive?

Furthermore, the six years of preparation, coupled with combat experience, coupled with some new weaponry, training etc, pulled off together sufficient resistance to repel Israeli forces, & maintain strategic leverage over Israel in the form of rocket attacks. To say, "we didn't prepare" is like saying that Israel was not ready for conflict. Israel is always ready for conflict, & if we go by what you say, then let's underline this point in a nutshell. Israel's intellegence failed as it did in the winter of 1973. as Israel was unprepared then for heavy ATGW or SAM umbrella or the rapid speed/surprise that Egyptian+Syrian forces achieved, despite Israel having an overwhelming advantage in other aspects.

Finally, it was a capture, not a kidnapp. Israel kidnapps Lebanese at gunpoint, & usually unarmed, where Hezbollah ATTACKED Israeli solidiers on occupied land, & captured the two survivors from that attack. Get a dictionary.

Hizbolla prepared ambushes, holdings and plans for 6 years, since they are the aggressors, and they are the ones to make the first strike, which will invite israel into south lebanon.

Israel already occupied part of (& maintains) occupation of that part of Southern Lebanon in the area called Shebba (or Chebba as the Lebanese spell it) & hence, Hezbollah's operation was in response to the real aggressor which is & always was Israel.

PS: The Viet Cong, Mujahideen, etc prepared ambushes, booby traps etc, what else is new?

Israel, on the other hand, wasn't thinking of a conflict with hizbolla. Since 2000 most conflicts were very small, along the border.Next time, we'll be prepared too. And then we'll see.

The particular incident of the capture of the two solidiers was also small. Israel's Olmert had to act tough where an old grouch like Sharon wouldn't have had to. A couple of artillarly vollies, some . Next time, I'll keep some pop corn. Rambo-type events are fun to watch, especially when the Israelis are on the recieving end.

[mango994]

You still ignore the fact that hizbolla is not an ordinary army, it uses the sneaky tiny warfare.
Nearly every HA missle launcher was bombed after shooting.
The problem is, that these aren't true launchers. Notice that ALL, ALL of the long range launchers were shot down on the first days. Bad israeli intelligence, isn't it?
Hizbolla's launchers are small. Many of them can be placed within houses.
Now imagine that i'm giving u an airplane with a mission to bomb every house that its family has a dog. When your time runs out I'll laugh and say u didn't manage to take out all of the dogs.
Israel could solve this very easily with its available power, but the point is- the investing. Tyre, the missle launching center- we could simply bomb it with our really serious bombs and demand Hizbolla to stop firing or Tyre will turn to ashes.
In another way, we had the option to invade Tyre and give it some good strike. Most rockets came from Tyre, since Tyre is a city, and launchers are harder to be tracked.
But the point is the price... the IDF was not prepared for this scenario.
Israel, unlike Hizbolla, had the options to end it all once and for all, but at a political cost.
Nasrallah claimed that missles will fall over Tel-Aviv if Beirut will be touched. lol. The Dahiya is ruins. Has anything touched Tel Aviv?

Tallgeese, this "war" was a mere field test, or more like an emergency test. Ever had an emergency test in your school (earthquake threat)? same thing. We saw the problems, and we're fixing. The next war will be the real thing, and I really don't mind if u want to keep dreaming that Israel "lost".
At the same way I can say that Hizbolla lost since it didn't manage to free prisoners and return Sheeba.

[NEWUSER]

... it uses the sneaky tiny warfare.

In war anything goes, sneaky tiny or otherwise, that is why it's called WAR.

If Israeli officials admitted defeat then dreaming is no long necessary. (I'm sure you will ask for a link and ignore the many threads created on this very forum, outlining Israeli army comments over how they LOST THE WAR against Hezb'Allah)

Israeli prisoners, will go back in the same way it was stated from day one by Hezb'Allah, in exchange for all Lebanese in Israeli jails -- Israel started the war just to free them and it failed miserably and beyond all expectations, even inside ISRAEL, and outside including the American's who were left scratching their heads and wondering where all the millions of dollars in American aid for Israel military went!

Frankly, the way you talk, and as far as I'm concerned, indicates nothing but defeat.

[Vane]

So if the IDF wernt ready why did they start the scenario at the first place.

[Yoni45]

Finally, it was a capture, not a kidnapp. Israel kidnapps Lebanese at gunpoint, & usually unarmed, where Hezbollah ATTACKED Israeli solidiers on occupied land, & captured the two survivors from that attack. Get a dictionary.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/kidnap

"Main Entry: kid·nap
Pronunciation: 'kid-"nap
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -napped also kid·naped /-"napt/; -nap·ping also -nap·ing
Etymology: probably back-formation from kidnapper, from kid + obsolete napper thief
: to seize and detain or carry away by unlawful force or fraud and often with a demand for ransom."

The hezbollah attack falls under that. There was seizure and detention, they were carried away, and unlawful force was used... [Israeli jurisdiction, and Hezbollah is not a government body capable of declaring a state of war between Lebanon and Israel]


Israel already occupied part of (& maintains) occupation of that part of Southern Lebanon in the area called Shebba (or Chebba as the Lebanese spell it)...

Not according to the UN [which certified the 2000 Israeli withdrawal as complete], Israel [which agreed with the UN], Syria [which has never agreed to demarcate the area as Lebanese, and even have Shebaa farms as part of Syria on government websites], and even Lebanon [which also accepted the UN decision, although reluctantly, which certified the Israeli withdrawal as full...]

[MrWanted]

Notice that ALL, ALL of the long range launchers were shot down on the first days. Bad israeli intelligence, isn't it? I know. You also downed their space station. That's why they didn't put a laser beam on your apartheit regime.

When Israel said it will bomb down town Beirut, Nasrallah said well in that case we use our long range rockets. Israel never did escalate like that? Why? should it be, may be, by a little chance, the fact that Nasrallah did kept to his promises?:laugh4:

[Behrooz Boonabi]

The IDF has no experience defending. They only know how to murder the indigenous people. There army is lazy due to the massive welfare they receive. Alone, they can only walk on there knees.

[WGREE2]

The IDF has no experience defending. They only know how to murder the indigenous people. There army is lazy due to the massive welfare they receive. Alone, they can only walk on there knees.
Please tell me you are jesting. The IDF has played major defensive roles in many wars throughout history. On more than a couple occasions they have had great success in bringing several invading armies simultaneously to their knees, typically out manned and out gunned. And lazy? Hardly, regardless of the aid Israel recieves, they are at the cutting edge in military technology, maybe they would'nt be where they are today without it, but my words can not even begin to describe the ignorance and imbecility in your statement. Smarten up.

[Behrooz Boonabi]

Please tell me you are jesting. The IDF has played major defensive roles in many wars throughout history. On more than a couple occasions they have had great success in bringing several invading armies simultaneously to their knees, typically out manned and out gunned. And lazy? Hardly, regardless of the aid Israel recieves, they are at the cutting edge in military technology, maybe they would'nt be where they are today without it, but my words can not even begin to describe the ignorance and imbecility in your statement. Smarten up.

Dude, israel is the invaders. To ignore that fact is just ignorance in its purest form. They are purely offensive in every way, not defensive. They are cutting edge in military technology because they are given it, not earning it. They should be taken off welfare so they can learn how to feed themselves. Many years of welfare made them lazy and incompetent in doing things for themselves and taking hard working peoples tax dollars at the same time. By the way, IDF only has recent history. Israel was created only a short time ago on other peoples property. Israel is still attacking the indigenous people. This is not defense. It is pure evil.

[WGREE2]

Hear this you delusional troll, read your own god damn post first before making a pathetic attempt for a rebuttal. Now, you said exactly this; "The IDF has no experience defending". Perhaps you should indulge yourself in some history mate, so next time you don't sound like a complete idiot. Arab Israeli war '48, six day war '67, war of attirition '68, yom kippur, etc. etc. etc. I’m not going to argue about what goes on in Palestine, or Lebanon, or whatever that’s not what I attacked you for. Simply realize that Israel has an outstanding history of defensive tactics in times of war, and even today their army is structured upon those very lessons.

[Behrooz Boonabi]

Hear this you delusional troll, read your own god damn post first before making a pathetic attempt for a rebuttal. Now, you said exactly this; "The IDF has no experience defending". Perhaps you should indulge yourself in some history mate, so next time you don't sound like a complete idiot. Arab Israeli war '48, six day war '67, war of attirition '68, yom kippur, etc. etc. etc. I’m not going to argue about what goes on in Palestine, or Lebanon, or whatever that’s not what I attacked you for. Simply realize that Israel has an outstanding history of defensive tactics in times of war, and even today their army is structured upon those very lessons.

You still don't get it. Israel is in Arab land. Arabs are not in israeli land. That makes it very simple. Israel attacks, not defends. If they had no welfare from the US, there would be no israel going around murdering people in there own home. Israel could not stand for a whole day without help from the US. If they murdered all those indigenous people on there own, that would be impressive but they didn't. Without there big brother they would be brought to justice. They suck because they are useless without welfare and criminal activity. Israel has no experience in defending, only offending.

[WGREE2]

Forget it, I could'nt argue that the sky was blue with you. I repeat myself and for the last time, I could care less whos f*cking land that is, thats not the topic here, all I am trying to get across is how foolish that statement of yours was. I gave you examples, factual histoy, dates, and what do you offer in return? "Israel has no experience in defending, only offending." Unbelieveable. Save your morallic indoctrinations for someone else, Don't even respond to this post, Im done here.

[Power_Serj]

You still don't get it. Israel is in Arab land. Arabs are not in israeli land. That makes it very simple. Israel attacks, not defends. If they had no welfare from the US, there would be no israel going around murdering people in there own home. Israel could not stand for a whole day without help from the US. If they murdered all those indigenous people on there own, that would be impressive but they didn't. Without there big brother they would be brought to justice. They suck because they are useless without welfare and criminal activity. Israel has no experience in defending, only offending.


Israel is a Hebrew land, get your facts straight. You should go check up history.

[Behrooz Boonabi]

Forget it, I could'nt argue that the sky was blue with you. I repeat myself and for the last time, I could care less whos f*cking land that is, thats not the topic here, all I am trying to get across is how foolish that statement of yours was. I gave you examples, factual histoy, dates, and what do you offer in return? "Israel has no experience in defending, only offending." Unbelieveable. Save your morallic indoctrinations for someone else, Don't even respond to this post, Im done here.

You sound angry.:)
First, you need take account israel is not meant to be there. If they where meant to be there they would not have any opposition. If a country is occupied, the invading force is the force that is attacking. Not the other way around. You don't seem to have the capacity for simple logic so I will take the time to break it down for you.

If somebody breaks into your house and shoots you when you come through the door, they are attacking, not defending. Clear enough?

[Tbagger]

The IDF has no experience defending.
:roflmao3:

IDF stands for: Israel DEFENSE Forces.

Israel has defended itself from aggressors in more than 5 wars. There goes your "the IDF has no experience defending" assertion.

[Behrooz Boonabi]

:roflmao3:

IDF stands for: Israel DEFENSE Forces.

Israel has defended itself from aggressors in more than 5 wars. There goes your "the IDF has no experience defending" assertion.

Just because you "defense" in your name does not mean you "defend".

Israel has always been the aggressors.

[Tbagger]

Just because you "defense" in your name does not mean you "defend".
Of course they defend! Hence the name, defense force. If they were aggressors then they should be called an offense force.

[Behrooz Boonabi]

Of course they defend! Hence the name, defense force. If they were aggressors then they should be called an offense force.

Then they should change there name to be realistic.

[Yoni45]

I know. You also downed their space station. That's why they didn't put a laser beam on your apartheit regime.

When Israel said it will bomb down town Beirut, Nasrallah said well in that case we use our long range rockets. Israel never did escalate like that? Why?

Perhaps because Israel has no use attacking Central Beirut? It attacked the Beirut outskirts wherever it needed to...

Nasrallah may as well have declared:

"IF ISRAEL ATTACKS CHINA, WE WILL RETALIATE WITH OUR FULL NUCLEAR ARSENAL, LAUNCHED FROM OUR SPACE STATION, AND WE'LL DO IT!!!!!!!11"

[Tallgeese]

You still ignore the fact that hizbolla is not an ordinary army, it uses the sneaky tiny warfare. Nearly every HA missle launcher was bombed after shooting.The problem is, that these aren't true launchers. Notice that ALL, ALL of the long range launchers were shot down on the first days. Bad israeli intelligence, isn't it?

Actually you're mistaken there. The long-range launchers were introduced mid-way through (when did the first launchers go to Haifa beyond it?) so I guess that they needed launchers unless Hezbollah have found a way to launch them without a big launcher. In the end, even these big launchers (I mean, a URGAN truck for example) can be concealed.

Hizbolla's launchers are small. Many of them can be placed within houses. Now imagine that i'm giving u an airplane with a mission to bomb every house that its family has a dog. When your time runs out I'll laugh and say u didn't manage to take out all of the dogs.

That's an interesting analgey but it's not an answer to why Israel failed to take out the rocket launchers & bleed Hezbollah to defeat. You're right about one thing, they are no ordinary army, & you're practically admiting that Israel failed & are citing the reasons but it's too difficult to say that Israel did not achive its objectives.

Israel could solve this very easily with its available power, but the point is- the investing. Tyre, the missle launching center- we could simply bomb it with our really serious bombs and demand Hizbolla to stop firing or Tyre will turn to ashes.

In another way, we had the option to invade Tyre and give it some good strike. Most rockets came from Tyre, since Tyre is a city, and launchers are harder to be tracked.

But the point is the price... the IDF was not prepared for this scenario.
Israel, unlike Hizbolla, had the options to end it all once and for all, but at a political cost.

Israel caused more destruction on Lebanon (especially Beruit) than it did on other areas, in fact, you'd think that most of the action was over Beirut. Hezbollah rockets did land near Tel Aviv (some short) but the threat could have materialised into a promise.

My own guesstimate is that difficulty in transporting the heavier rocket launchers as Israeli reece assets were probably monitoring the South of Lebanon (I also suspect that most of the launchers were at least 10-25km inside Lebanon thus shortening the range & lessing the accuracy once fired. Movement of larger vehicles to come within range of Tel Aviv would have been risky but tried if the order was sent.

On top of everything else, Israel did cause tremendous destruction in Tyre & other cities (aside from Beruit) resulting in the refuguee crisis.

Yes, Israel can drop bombs randomly, but it is sheer idiocy to do so. Ever been in a boxing match? What's the point of paunching someone who's elbows are up & guarding his head? Your hardest punches will not be as effective, & you'll just punch yourself out. The best thing is to aim for the head, &, failing to do so, painful body shots. Israel was punching thin air half the time.

Nasrallah claimed that missles will fall over Tel-Aviv if Beirut will be touched. lol. The Dahiya is ruins. Has anything touched Tel Aviv?

Close, but as I said before.


Tallgeese, this "war" was a mere field test, or more like an emergency test. Ever had an emergency test in your school (earthquake threat)? same thing.

Ironic you should say 'earthquake' because 'Zilzal' (the missile) means earthquake. Yes, I have been in a drill, but there was never an earthquake or a fire that I've had to face, not even a small one such as that 'small war'

We saw the problems, and we're fixing. The next war will be the real thing, and I really don't mind if u want to keep dreaming that Israel "lost".
At the same way I can say that Hizbolla lost since it didn't manage to free prisoners and return Sheeba.

Hezbollah won this round of the Hezbollah-Israel war, but when you think about it, it's not a war in the sense that it's a full scale one. Yes, Israel will improve its tanks, its reece assets, coordination, & more troops will get Tavors (anything else?) yes, Israel plans on a series of new UAV with attack capability (I could go on & on).

Do you think Hezbollah didn't learn anything? Hassan Nassrullah's promise to attack Tel Aviv didn't materialise, & certainly is one hair on the cake to Hezbollah's performance (Israel has more hair than cake to chew on) but Hezbollah's rockets will fly farther, longer, & with more powerful warheads, & possibly acquire some guidance systems.

They are also going to study ways of hitting harder at Israeli tanks, undermining Israeli air and especially reece operations, & possibly acquiring jamming systems to handle LGBs and JDAM (the Iraqis managed to jam the JDAM with some Russian-made systems forcing the Americans to change tactics) & these are all options. Likewise, Hezbollah's mines are likely to become more nasty (one reason why Israel wants its Merkava to have a thicker belly since Hezbollah mines are more advanced than Palestinian types -which are ingenious for something made in a garage-).

[Tallgeese]

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/kidnap

"Main Entry: kid·nap
Pronunciation: 'kid-"nap
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -napped also kid·naped /-"napt/; -nap·ping also -nap·ing
Etymology: probably back-formation from kidnapper, from kid + obsolete napper thief
: to seize and detain or carry away by unlawful force or fraud and often with a demand for ransom."

Hezbollah captured those two Israeli solidiers in occupied land (which is lawful resistance) & we know it's no fraud, Shebba is Lebanese, & even if it wasn't there, then it's part of the major ransom to get Lebanese land and prisoners who were kidnapped in their own homes (unlawfully, by force, & fraud-wise as 'barginning chips' many of whom have no connection to Hezbollah.

The hezbollah attack falls under that. There was seizure and detention, they were carried away, and unlawful force was used... [Israeli jurisdiction, and Hezbollah is not a government body capable of declaring a state of war between Lebanon and Israel]

They could have killed them off. What would you have prefered? Besides, Hezbollah have kept them alive so far.

Not according to the UN [which certified the 2000 Israeli withdrawal as complete], Israel [which agreed with the UN], Syria [which has never agreed to demarcate the area as Lebanese, and even have Shebaa farms as part of Syria on government websites], and even Lebanon [which also accepted the UN decision, although reluctantly, which certified the Israeli withdrawal as full...]

Who cares, as long as Lebanon claims Shebba as Lebanese, Israel may as well hand it over to Lebanon & let Lebanon-Syria fight it out between them & say 'not our problem' release all Lebanese prisoners, & it ends Hezbollah's role, & increases pressure on Hezbollah to disarm or amalmagate with the Lebanese army or whatever.

[Yoni45]

Hezbollah captured those two Israeli solidiers in occupied land (which is lawful resistance)...

Actually, I've already shown it isn't lawful resistance. International law has demarcated that land as not being Lebanese, making it under Israeli jurisdiction. As Hezbollah does not represent the government of Lebanon, it also has no legal basis on which to make such an incursion in a framework of a war.

It fits every single one of the criteria for "kidnapping"... As you said, "get a dictionary", so I did.

then it's part of the major ransom to get Lebanese land and prisoners who were kidnapped in their own homes (unlawfully, by force, & fraud-wise as 'barginning chips' many of whom have no connection to Hezbollah.

Actually, the three Lebanese prisoners Israel has were captured in Israel proper. Samir Kuntar was captured after killing a man and his daughter, both unarmed civilians, at point blank, the daughter rather brutally. Yehia Skaff was captured after his involvement in the coastal road massacre. Nissim Nasser was actually an Israeli caught spying for Hezbollah. The fisherman, Ali Faratan, also would have been captured in Israeli waters, but that's just a random claim by Hezbollah. He disappeared, and there's no evidence he was actually captured by Israel...

Those are the three men Hezbollah was fighting to have released...

Who cares...

Israel cares, and Israel happens to have the land. Pretty much all relevant parties agree, the land is Syrian. It is a Syrian-Israeli issue...

[javid khan]

Actually, I've already shown it isn't lawful resistance. International law has demarcated that land as not being Lebanese, making it under Israeli jurisdiction. As Hezbollah does not represent the government of Lebanon, it also has no legal basis on which to make such an incursion in a framework of a war.


Hezbollah has members in lebanon goverment, hezbollah can bring millions onto streets inside 24hours, hezbollah control from south lebanon to beirut, hezbollah is as much political party as military with alot of influence in lebanon internal affairs


It fits every single one of the criteria for "kidnapping"... As you said, "get a dictionary", so I did.


lead by example relase palestinains hezbollah will leave yours


Actually, the three Lebanese prisoners Israel has were captured in Israel proper. Samir Kuntar was captured after killing a man and his daughter, both unarmed civilians, at point blank, the daughter rather brutally. Yehia Skaff was captured after his involvement in the coastal road massacre. Nissim Nasser was actually an Israeli caught spying for Hezbollah. The fisherman, Ali Faratan, also would have been captured in Israeli waters, but that's just a random claim by Hezbollah. He disappeared, and there's no evidence he was actually captured by Israel...


Oh what a shame i feel so sorry for the innocent jews killed, have you forget Settler Baruch Goldstein who opens fire on Muslims praying in the Tomb of Abraham mosque in Hebron which killed 50 and injured 170 innocent in 1994 suffering from short term memory loss?

come on now im beating you at your own game



Those are the three men Hezbollah was fighting to have released...



Israel cares, and Israel happens to have the land. Pretty much all relevant parties agree, the land is Syrian. It is a Syrian-Israeli issue...


Controling and occupying other borders is clear violation of international law so it mean it is international issue!!

if this was a election it would have been a landslide thanks come again

[Tallgeese]

Actually, I've already shown it isn't lawful resistance. International law has demarcated that land as not being Lebanese, making it under Israeli jurisdiction. As Hezbollah does not represent the government of Lebanon, it also has no legal basis on which to make such
an incursion in a framework of a war.

Actually Israel declared war on Lebanon for Hezbollah's attack and Hezbollah and Lebanon declare it to be occupied Lebanese land. Also the International Law was never respected by Israel besides, when did the international community and especially USA and Israel in particular legtimise Hezbollah resistance.

It fits every single one of the criteria for "kidnapping"... As you said, "get a dictionary", so I did.

Not really, as long as it's Lebanese-claimed land (which is may well be) then it's not Israel's to hold. It's like saying, "we choose to occupy it from Syria" where the Syrians themselves aren't complaining or laying claims to it.

Actually, the three Lebanese prisoners Israel has were captured in Israel proper. Samir Kuntar was captured after killing a man and his daughter, both unarmed civilians, at point blank, the daughter rather brutally. Yehia Skaff was captured after his involvement in the coastal road massacre. Nissim Nasser was actually an Israeli caught spying for Hezbollah. The fisherman, Ali Faratan, also would have been captured in Israeli waters, but that's just a random claim by Hezbollah. He disappeared, and there's no evidence he was actually captured by Israel...

Those are the three men Hezbollah was fighting to have released...


The Hezbollah list is actually much longer than that.

Israel cares, and Israel happens to have the land. Pretty much all relevant parties agree, the land is Syrian. It is a Syrian-Israeli issue...

I suppose the Lebanese government which claims it to be Lebanese is also a revelent party or is it when you want it to be?

[Yoni45]

Actually Israel declared war on Lebanon for Hezbollah's attack

Correct. Any capture of soldiers after that declaration of war would have been legitimate [actually it would have been questionable, but regardless]. Beforehand, it wasn't, making the kidnapping definition accurate...

Not really, as long as it's Lebanese-claimed land (which is may well be) then it's not Israel's to hold. It's like saying, "we choose to occupy it from Syria" where the Syrians themselves aren't complaining or laying claims to it.

Actually, the Syrians are complaining and laying claims to it. They have never agreed to demarcate it as Lebanese, and their government maps include it as Syrian. The Lebanese can claim it all they want. Just because they claim Alaska as theirs, doesn't mean the US has to evacuate. All relevant bodies, Lebanon included, have either considered it Syrian, or have agreed to Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon as "complete"

The Hezbollah list is actually much longer than that.

Actually, the Hezbollah list is not. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I suppose the Lebanese government which claims it to be Lebanese is also a revelent party or is it when you want it to be?

They're a relevant party. They agreed to comply with the UN resolution that declared the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon as "complete".

[Yoni45]

Hezbollah has members in lebanon goverment...

Correct, but it doesn't solely control the government, and thus does not have the authority to declare a state of war on behalf of Lebanon

lead by example relase palestinains hezbollah will leave yours

Irrelevant. Not only are the Palestinians in a different situation, but Hezbollah has also stated a number of times they are not fighting for the Palestinians.

Oh what a shame i feel so sorry for the innocent jews killed, have you forget Settler Baruch Goldstein...

Relevance? What does he have to do with any of this? Is he a prisoner on any side?

Controling and occupying other borders is clear violation of international law so it mean it is international issue!!

Actually, it isn't. Not in a blanket manner like that anyway.

[mirza]

Then they should change there name to be realistic.

they ve gave explanation for that before , they say : we defend our country there so we dont have to fight in our homeland

or we are simply "bringing the fight to them"

[javid khan]

Correct, but it doesn't solely control the government, and thus does not have the authority to declare a state of war on behalf of Lebanon
.

no they dont but do they need to declare state of war, they single handidly stopped a israeli advance last summer when lebanon army was sitting in barracks


Irrelevant. Not only are the Palestinians in a different situation, but Hezbollah has also stated a number of times they are not fighting for the Palestinians.
.

you mean to say relevent, hezbollah kidinapped israeli soldiers when israel was attacked gaza strip and it was favour for palestinians done by hezbollah why do u thinl palestinains support hezbollah?


Relevance? What does he have to do with any of this? Is he a prisoner on any side?
.

nice to see you qucikly backpeddle and side step the issue but that isnt going to cover up israeli crimes against humanity which are against all UN resoltuions and genevea conventions


Actually, it isn't. Not in a blanket manner like that anyway.

coming from you that isnt suprsing, i stepped on it this time

[Behrooz Boonabi]

they ve gave explanation for that before , they say : we defend our country there so we dont have to fight in our homeland

or we are simply "bringing the fight to them"

If thats the case where is it going to end? They are invaders no matter what way we look at it.

[mirza]

If thats the case where is it going to end? They are invaders no matter what way we look at it.

that s not my opinion bra , i meant they can come up with all kinds of explanation but any smart enough man can understand the situation as it is

it s just like when they say : might defines right

[Yoni45]

no they dont but do they need to declare state of war...

Yes, they do. Otherwise, what they are doing is illegal under both Lebanese and Israeli jurisdictions, which makes the "kidnapping" label relevant.

you mean to say relevent, hezbollah kidinapped israeli soldiers when israel was attacked gaza strip and it was favour for palestinians done by hezbollah why do u thinl palestinains support hezbollah?

That's still not relevant to the fact that Hezbollah "kidnapped" the Israeli soldiers.

In fact, you admit that yourself in your own words...

nice to see you qucikly backpeddle and side step the issue but that isnt going to cover up israeli crimes against humanity which are against all UN resoltuions and genevea conventions

Again, relevance? We were discussing the jurisdiction under which the Lebanese prisoners were captured, that being under Israeli jurisdiction. Baruch Goldstein's terrorist attack has nothing to do with that, nor does it draw any relevant parallels as he wasn't a prisoner at any point...

coming from you that isnt suprsing, i stepped on it this time

Huh? "stepped on it"? What does that even mean? Occupation on its own is not against international law. In fact, there is international law that deals with how occupation should be carried out...

Feel free to bring forth international law that illegalizes occupation on its own...

[Tallgeese]

Correct. Any capture of soldiers after that declaration of war would have been legitimate [actually it would have been questionable, but regardless]. Beforehand, it wasn't, making the kidnapping definition accurate...

The fact of the matter is, Israel hasn't withdrawn on all Lebanon's land (including the land it claims) & has NOT released all Lebanese prisoners according to Hezbollah's list (which as I said is much longer) & as long as the land is disputed (between Syria-Lebanon) then Israeli occupation of that land means that Hezbollah is laying claim regardless of who is occupying it at any given time. While I doubt they'd go to war with Syria over it (if Israel handed it back to Syria) as negociations can take place more fruitfully with a state that is hardly an aggressor state (i.e. did not occupy Lebanese land).

Israel would be doing itself a favour by creating a Hezbollah-Syria rift by handing over what it already considers to be occupied land.

Actually, the Syrians are complaining and laying claims to it. They have never agreed to demarcate it as Lebanese, and their government maps include it as Syrian. The Lebanese can claim it all they want. Just because they claim Alaska as theirs, doesn't mean the US has to evacuate. All relevant bodies, Lebanon included, have either considered it Syrian, or have agreed to Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon as "complete"

Like I said before, 'relevent' is who you want to be relevent, when you want them to be relevent (in this case the Syrians too) but Israel's selectivity in this game doesn't lay any form of legitimacy. Are you seriously saying that Israel is in effect holding on to land that is Syrian, & 'safe-keeping' while Syria complains that Lebanese (Hezbollah especially) claims are flawed?

Besides, Syria isn't complaining about Hezbollah's resistance (curiously because the Syrian regime itself doesn't sponser resistance on the Golan itself) but as long as Hezbollah's doing their work, I don't see why they should.

Actually, the Hezbollah list is not. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Why don't you watch Al-Manar & check out the list of Lebanese citizens who remain unaccounted for in Israel.

They're a relevant party. They agreed to comply with the UN resolution that declared the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon as "complete".

& they claim that 23/24 official maps 'proves' that Shebba is Syria & not Lebanese. The Lebanese accused the UN of being bias. Sound farmiliar? Whatever the case, Hezbollah isn't budging as long as the national consensus in Lebanon regards it as Lebanese.

[Yoni45]

The fact of the matter is, Israel hasn't withdrawn on all Lebanon's land (including the land it claims)

Actually, it has, once again according to: The UN, Israel, Syria [who lays claim to the land], and reluctantly, Lebanon.

has NOT released all Lebanese prisoners according to Hezbollah's list (which as I said is much longer)

Nor does it have to. Not only were they captured in Israeli jurisdiction, but were also charged with crimes. You might "say" it's much longer, but you haven't shown a single piece of evidence showing such. In the meanwhile, credible news sources state three.

as long as the land is disputed (between Syria-Lebanon) then Israeli occupation of that land means that Hezbollah is laying claim regardless of who is occupying it at any given time.

Hezbollah can lay claim for it all they want. It doesn't mean it's a legitimate claim. Especially since they're not an authority to be making such a claim. As such.


state that is hardly an aggressor state (i.e. did not occupy Lebanese land).

Haha, Syria didn't occupy Lebanese land? Sorry, that made me chuckle... Try telling some Lebanese that...

(if you'd like, try also telling them that Syria doesn't have thousands of Lebanese prisoners vs the three that Israel holds...)

Israel would be doing itself a favour by creating a Hezbollah-Syria rift by handing over what it already considers to be occupied land.

Or it'd be shooting itself in the foot handing over one of the most strategically important areas in the region...

Like I said before, 'relevent' is who you want to be relevent, when you want them to be relevent

No, relevant is whoever can be shown to be relevant. Israel occupies the land, they are relevant. The UN is an international body that deals with such issues, they are relevant. Lebanon is a country which supposedly lays claim to the land, they are relevant. Syria is a country which supposedly lays claim to the land, they are relevant.

Are you seriously saying that Israel is in effect holding on to land that is Syrian, & 'safe-keeping' while Syria complains that Lebanese (Hezbollah especially) claims are flawed?

That's almost right. Except Israel isn't "safe-keeping" it, it's holding onto it while the Syrian-Israeli situation is being resolved, and Syria doesn't complain, it just doesn't acknowledge any Lebanese sovereignty over the land...

Besides, Syria isn't complaining about Hezbollah's resistance (curiously because the Syrian regime itself doesn't sponser resistance on the Golan itself) but as long as Hezbollah's doing their work, I don't see why they should.

Thanks for making my point for me. Who'se work is Hezbollah doing? Syria's, that's correct.

Why don't you watch Al-Manar & check out the list of Lebanese citizens who remain unaccounted for in Israel.

Haha. First off, you don't even have a link or a specific source. Second off, Al-Manar? You expect Al-Manar to be considered credible in any way?

they claim that 23/24 official maps 'proves' that Shebba is Syria & not Lebanese. The Lebanese accused the UN of being bias. Sound farmiliar? Whatever the case, Hezbollah isn't budging as long as the national consensus in Lebanon regards it as Lebanese.

That's correct. Lebanon was only capable of finding one map showing it as Lebanese, while maps from before, during and after the same time period showed it as Syrian. This ranges from the 1920's all the way to 2000.

As for Lebanon. Once again: Lebanon agreed to comply with the UN decision to acknowledge the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon as "complete".

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/kidnap

"Main Entry: kid·nap
Pronunciation: 'kid-"nap
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -napped also kid·naped /-"napt/; -nap·ping also -nap·ing
Etymology: probably back-formation from kidnapper, from kid + obsolete napper thief
: to seize and detain or carry away by unlawful force or fraud and often with a demand for ransom."

The hezbollah attack falls under that. There was seizure and detention, they were carried away, and unlawful force was used... [Israeli jurisdiction, and Hezbollah is not a government body capable of declaring a state of war between Lebanon and Israel]Correct. Therefore, the Israeli police should've contacted the Lebanese police to resolve the matter together, not bombed Lebanese civilians. But since that didn't happen, it was Israel that attacked Lebanon.I know. You also downed their space station. That's why they didn't put a laser beam on your apartheit regime:roflmao3: Love it.


When Israel said it will bomb down town Beirut, Nasrallah said well in that case we use our long range rockets. Israel never did escalate like that? Why? should it be, may be, by a little chance, the fact that Nasrallah did kept to his promises?:laugh4:According to news I got in Europe, Beirut was bombed (many tall buildings reduced to rubble) but no tatgets deep within Israel were hit.

[Mohmar 'Deathstrike']

:roflmao3:

IDF stands for: Israel DEFENSE Forces.
Names don't mean jack crap. It's called the "United States Department of Defense", yet all they do is attack defefenseless countries. During and just before WW2 the German armed forces were called Wehrmacht, which means, guess what: DEFENSE Force

Israel has defended itself from aggressors in more than 5 wars. There goes your "the IDF has no experience defending" assertion.Israel has only defended foreign land occupied by it in 2 wars and attacked other countries in 3 wars. Having said that, I agree that Israel is indeed well equipped for defense.

[Yoni45]

Correct. Therefore, the Israeli police should've contacted the Lebanese police to resolve the matter together, not bombed Lebanese civilians. But since that didn't happen, it was Israel that attacked Lebanon.

I agree with you, and in a (relatively) ideal situation where a nation has control over its country, that's what would have happened...

Unfortunately, the Lebanese authorities do not have the power (and arguably, they also don't have the will) to do anything about Hezbollah...

Further, this would only address one of the reasons for Israel going to war with Hezbollah... (that being the soldiers...)

[Vane]

HESBOLLAH=THe people the army the police=LEBANON.Lebanon is nothing without him.

[MrWanted]

I agree with you, and in a (relatively) ideal situation where a nation has control over its country, that's what would have happened...

Unfortunately, the Lebanese authorities do not have the power (and arguably, they also don't have the will) to do anything about Hezbollah...

Further, this would only address one of the reasons for Israel going to war with Hezbollah... (that being the soldiers...)

You just had to negotiate and do a prisoner exchange. You chose not to because of US who wanted you to get rid of Hezb. But hey that's what you gonna do just like Nasrallah told you on day one:"Even if the whole world comes here at the end you have to negotiate on them".

Ideal situation.....tssss

[Yoni45]

You just had to negotiate and do a prisoner exchange. You chose not to because of US who wanted you to get rid of Hezb. But hey that's what you gonna do just like Nasrallah told you on day one:"Even if the whole world comes here at the end you have to negotiate on them".

Ideal situation.....tssss

again, at best case scenario, this only resolves the kidnapped soldiers issue, which is only one of the rea