Israel ready to cut power to 'hostile' Gaza

[burster]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/20/wgaza120.xml

Israel ready to cut power to 'hostile' Gaza

By Tim Butcher
Last Updated: 2:07am BST 20/09/2007

Israel paved the way for cutting electricity, fuel and other supplies to the Gaza Strip yesterday when it formally declared the region "hostile territory".
The announcement was seen as a political gesture by Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister. He is under pressure to act robustly against the frequent rocket attacks launched from Gaza into Israel.
But human rights groups accused Israel of threatening collective punishment against Gaza's 1.4 million Palestinian inhabitants.
Last June, Israel bombed Gaza's only power station, plunging much of the area into darkness and leaving Palestinians to endure the summer heat without air conditioning or refrigerators.

Afterwards, Israel denied that this amounted to collective punishment because a "state of conflict" existed with the Palestinian people.
The latest declaration means that Israel reserves the right to sever fuel and power supplies to Gaza - although no date for the onset of any such blockade has been announced.
The decision by Israel's security cabinet created a rare moment of unity between Hamas, the militant Islamist group controlling Gaza, and its secular rival, Fatah. Both condemned the move.
"This oppressive decision will only strengthen the choking embargo," said a statement from Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president. Fatah officials said they would ask America to intervene and persuade Israel to reverse the decision.
But on a visit to Jerusalem yesterday, Condoleezza Rice, the American secretary of state, showed no sign of being ready to consider any such request. Instead, she publicly endorsed Israel's description of Hamas as hostile. "Hamas is indeed a hostile entity. It is a hostile entity to the US as well," she said.

She added that America would not "abandon the innocent Palestinians in Gaza". Her visit was intended to prepare for a Middle East peace conference which America plans to hold in November.
• Pope Benedict XVI refused to see Condoleezza Rice when she requested a meeting in Rome, an Italian newspaper reported yesterday.
Miss Rice had requested an appointment last month, but was told that the Pope was on holiday.
The Vatican has frequently criticised America's policies in the Middle East.

[mig21bis]

Israel is ready to violate international laws then....

[Sinosphere]

Poor Gaza residents. :(

[Vladimir80]

Whose the terrorists?

[Parmenides]

Poor Gaza residents. :(Not so, after all it's their own fault. If the citizens in a country vote for a political party that promises to go to war, they only got themselves to blame if they suffer from that war.

[Parmenides]

Israel is ready to violate international laws then....Not true, electricity isn't one of the basic human rights. People can live without it. After all, it's also being used to produce weapons against Israel, so why should Israel provide that electricity? They want their own country there, well now they got it! Let them live in it by themselves. They should produce their own electricity and not come crying to us.

If two countries go to war, they try to stop each other's power supply, and it's not against international laws, it's basic common sense.

[mig21bis]

Not true, electricity isn't one of the basic human rights. People can live without it. After all, it's also being used to produce weapons against Israel, so why should Israel provide that electricity? They want their own country there, well now they got it! Let them live in it by themselves. They should produce their own electricity and not come crying to us.

If two countries go to war, they try to stop each other's power supply, and it's not against international laws, it's basic common sense.



+++++ Lets see :


20 Sept. 2007: Cabinet decision will impose collective punishment on a civilian population, lead to grave breach of International Law

Israeli rights groups condemn proposed state sanctions against Gaza civilians:

Seven Israeli human rights organizations jointly warn that yesterday's Cabinet decision to limit the electricity and fuel supply to the Gaza Strip and to further restrict movement in and out of Gaza will exacerbate the existing humanitarian crisis there. In addition, the sanctions constitute a grave breach of the foremost principle of international humanitarian law: the obligation to distinguish between combatants and civilians. In addition, the decision is liable to constitute a violation of one of the absolute prohibitions of international law: the ban on collective punishment. The coalition believes that these sanctions will also not prevent armed groups from launching rocket attacks on Israeli communities.

The Israeli Cabinet's claim that the proposed sanctions will not affect the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip is false. Limiting the electricity supply will drastically reduce the functioning capacity of hospitals and health clinics. In addition, limited electricity will reduce Gaza 's water pumping system, and will cripple its sewage system and water supply. Thus, the Cabinet's decision not to cut Gaza 's water supply is not a humane gesture because the other sanctions will effectively diminish it in any case.

The human rights organizations urge the Cabinet to reverse its decision to impose collective punishment on the Gaza Strip – a grave violation of international humanitarian law.


http://www.btselem.org/english/press_releases/20070920.asp



Maybe you have to fix that "common sense" little.....

[chaos]

if they dont fire rockets, we wont cut the electricity.

[Voozio]

Hamas was elected by the Gazans. Hamas does not recognize Israel.
Hamas is a hostile entity not starting from today. Its just that this decision comes way too late.
Why a "non-existant" state should provide electricity to its gravest enemies?
Please, DO explain to me the logic behind this thought. Why?

[Gonjeeshk]

So more collective punishment from the zionists? What a surprise! Not only to cut electricity, but cut fuel as well; needed for Gaza's only power station. So cutting electricity AND the means to make it as well. Oh, if only Hitler could see his students now. The nazis would be so proud.

[Voozio]

So more collective punishment from the zionists? What a surprise! Not only to cut electricity, but cut fuel as well; needed for Gaza's only power station. So cutting electricity AND the means to make it as well. Oh, if only Hitler could see his students now. The nazis would be so proud.

So in this case id expect you to condemn constant shelling of the city of Sderot. Isnt it a collective punishment? Oh right, i forgot. They are just a bunch of Jews after all.

So, can anyone answer my previous question?
As an analogy i can provide you with this fictional example.
Imagine Iran providing electricity to the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Any takers?

[Kiaar]

So in this case id expect you to condemn constant shelling of the city of Sderot. Isnt it a collective punishment? Oh right, i forgot. They are just a bunch of Jews after all.

So, can anyone answer my previous question?
As an analogy i can provide you with this fictional example.
Imagine Iran providing electricity to the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Any takers?

Why would they respond to you? They know you're right, so they'll simply ignore it and hope it goes away.

[Vladimir80]

Hamas was elected by the Gazans. Hamas does not recognize Israel.
Hamas is a hostile entity not starting from today. Its just that this decision comes way too late.
Why a "non-existant" state should provide electricity to its gravest enemies?
Please, DO explain to me the logic behind this thought. Why?

I'll go ahead and tackle that one. Israel has built a continous cycle of dependence on Gaza to that of Israel. Every time the International community tries to take care of their infrastructure the IDF comes in and bombs it. Heaven forbid Gaza supplies it's own water and electricity, the IDF has to bomb it's main generation plant. Not to mention totally destroying it's civilian airport. It is a bit hypocritcal to come here and start justifying Israel's threats to punish the population when it was they who made them dependent in the first place. Why does Israel have to provide electricty... because YOU blew up their power plant... that's why.

[Voozio]

I'll go ahead and tackle that one. Israel has built a continous cycle of dependence on Gaza to that of Israel. Every time the International community tries to take care of their infrastructure the IDF comes in and bombs it. Heaven forbid Gaza supplies it's own water and electricity, the IDF has to bomb it's main generation plant. Not to mention totally destroying it's civilian airport. It is a bit hypocritcal to come here and start justifying Israel's threats to punish the population when it was they who made them dependent in the first place. Why does Israel have to provide electricty... because YOU blew up their power plant... that's why.

Excellent, Vladimir!
That would be an outrageous move by my country ONLY in case if Gaza wasn't a hostile entity.

Do you agree with me that they are our sworn enemies?
Do you understand that Hamas does not recognize Israel as a country?
Do you understand that the ones who rule the Gaza right now is democratically elected party of Hamas, which declared not once, that their main goal is the destruction of Israel?
Do you understand that we are at war with Gaza and Hamas is still bombarding Sderot despite our ultimatum?

Now you tell me... You can use an analogy too.
Berlin. April, 1945.
Why Allies have not provided electricity to Berlin residents?
Isnt it a collective punishment? I mean they were after the Nazi regime and its leaders. Not after civilians, right? And those civilians were totally dependant on Allied forces. Since all of the infrastructure were bombed by Allies.

How would it look to you if a chechenian rebells back in 1995 would file a complaint about Russia cutting off their usual supplies to Chechnya?

So NO, Vladimir. We dont HAVE to do anything for Gaza.
Yet, we still providing them with water, electricity, fuel.

[Vladimir80]

Excellent, Vladimir!
That would be an outrageous move by my country ONLY in case if Gaza wasn't a hostile entity.

Do you agree with me that they are our sworn enemies?
Do you understand that Hamas does not recognize Israel as a country?
Do you understand that the ones who rule the Gaza right now is democratically elected party of Hamas, which declared not once, that their main goal is the destruction of Israel?
Do you understand that we are at war with Gaza and Hamas is still bombarding Sderot despite our ultimatum?


The problem with your position is you are trying to punish all the people for the actions of a party that took over Gaza in a coup. There are people in Gaza that are supressed by Hamas from Fatah that want to work on the peace process but they are held at gun point to silence. The position of America and the Israeli government not to talk to Hamas only places the blame in your court. No one wants war but you leave them little choice but to react in the only way they know how since you and Abbas won't listen to them. They have legitamate concerns that you won't even bother to hear. Hamas was democratically elected yet the Americans won't even recognize it because it isn't the government they want... truly hypocritical.

Now you tell me... You can use an analogy too.
Berlin. April, 1945.
Why Allies have not provided electricity to Berlin residents?
Isnt it a collective punishment? I mean they were after the Nazi regime and its leaders. Not after civilians, right? And those civilians were totally dependant on Allied forces. Since all of the infrastructure were bombed by Allies.

The Great Patriotic War left many bad feelings... I can understand why they did it but I don't agree with it. They had no right and neither does Israel to punish the population.

How would it look to you if a chechenian rebells back in 1995 would file a complaint about Russia cutting off their usual supplies to Chechnya?

Chechnya was invaded and we were doing what was needed to gain victory. The difference is not a punishment to gain victory, it is punishment just to make them suffer. You declared Gaza an enemy entity just because it makes it easier for IDF to punish the populace. You will feel you are not responsible for collateral damage as all Gazans are your enemy... rather convient way to quanitfy war don't think?


So NO, Vladimir. We dont HAVE to do anything for Gaza.
Yet, we still providing them with water, electricity, fuel.

You destroyed their power plant which is why they can't generate the electricty needed and keep the water flowing. You destroyed their airport so they have poor economic development. Israel is responsible for the conditions of these people because you destroy their infrastructure the same as you did in Lebanon. You do it just so you can maintain control over these people. You have PGMs, there is no reason to bomb infrastructure. When you do it makes you the terrorist.

[Khaybar]

Not so, after all it's their own fault. If the citizens in a country vote for a political party that promises to go to war, they only got themselves to blame if they suffer from that war.

So by your understanding democracy is acceptable when the Palestinian vote for someone that israel apporves? that wouldn't democracy anymore.

if they dont fire rockets, we wont cut the electricity.

If you stop killing them, then maybe they would accept the long term truce.

Hamas was elected by the Gazans. Hamas does not recognize Israel.
Hamas is a hostile entity not starting from today. Its just that this decision comes way too late.
Why a "non-existant" state should provide electricity to its gravest enemies?
Please, DO explain to me the logic behind this thought. Why?

Because israel is the occupier, and according to international, including the geneva convention, the well-being, safety, and the reservation of the basic human rights of the occupied rests within the hands of the occupiers, which are in this case, the israelis.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[mig21bis]

Hamas was elected by the Gazans. Hamas does not recognize Israel.
Hamas is a hostile entity not starting from today. Its just that this decision comes way too late.
Why a "non-existant" state should provide electricity to its gravest enemies?
Please, DO explain to me the logic behind this thought. Why?


+++++ BECAUSE IT VIOLATES INTERNATIONAL LAWS....did i say it clear ?

Hamas was elected completely democratic way....

Israel doesnt recognice palestinian state with -67 borders....

Israel is hostile entity towards to pales....

And you tell also that decision comes too late.....which mean that violating int. laws begins too late then....

Jesus christ what *orons.....

[Kermanshah1]

You wait till we destroy Israel and the Palestinians have all their land bakc, then they will have electricity.

[Voozio]

The problem with your position is you are trying to punish all the people for the actions of a party that took over Gaza in a coup. There are people in Gaza that are supressed by Hamas from Fatah that want to work on the peace process but they are held at gun point to silence. The position of America and the Israeli government not to talk to Hamas only places the blame in your court. No one wants war but you leave them little choice but to react in the only way they know how since you and Abbas won't listen to them. They have legitamate concerns that you won't even bother to hear. Hamas was democratically elected yet the Americans won't even recognize it because it isn't the government they want... truly hypocritical.
True. They were a legitemately and democratically elected terrorists (From my point of view). A coup was an internal conflict. Between Fatah and Hamas.
It did not nullified the results of the previous elections.
True. We are not willing to negotiate with them.
True. Their way to "attract" our attention is terror. Seems logical to you?
Not to me. Its a magic circle situation.

The Great Patriotic War left many bad feelings... I can understand why they did it but I don't agree with it. They had no right and neither does Israel to punish the population.

Oh my god... Are you serious, Vladimir? You dont agree with what? The bombings of the German infrastracture during a war? You sure you are Russian?
Theres no ideal wars. The general population almost always will suffer from the war. No exceptions. Thats my own country included.

Chechnya was invaded and we were doing what was needed to gain victory. The difference is not a punishment to gain victory, it is punishment just to make them suffer. You declared Gaza an enemy entity just because it makes it easier for IDF to punish the populace. You will feel you are not responsible for collateral damage as all Gazans are your enemy... rather convient way to quanitfy war don't think?
No, Vladimir. We declare Gaza the hostile entity, because it is what it is. An enemy. Chosen by the Gazans themselves to represent them. Lets ask Palestinians, what they think about us...
You reap what you sow.


You destroyed their power plant which is why they can't generate the electricty needed and keep the water flowing. You destroyed their airport so they have poor economic development. Israel is responsible for the conditions of these people because you destroy their infrastructure the same as you did in Lebanon. You do it just so you can maintain control over these people. You have PGMs, there is no reason to bomb infrastructure. When you do it makes you the terrorist.
Once again you refuse to understand one simple thing... We are at war with each other. And its not started with this decision. When you are at war. You dont supply your enemy with electricity, my friend.
But then again. Noones cutting it yet. I expect it to be cut in the inevitable Gaza ground operation which is coming pretty soon, judging by the news.
And i guess thats why this decision finally been achieved.

[Kermanshah1]

Once again you refuse to understand one simple thing... We are at war with each other. And its not started with this decision. When you are at war. You dont supply your enemy with electricity, my friend.
But then again. Noones cutting it yet. I expect it to be cut in the inevitable Gaza ground operation which is coming pretty soon, judging by the news.
And i guess thats why this decision finally been achieved.

Let's hope this ground offensive will be an other 2006 Lebanon conflict. Let's hope Hamas beats you like Hizbollah did.

[Abbas]

Imagine Iran providing electricity to the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Any takers?


Yes but did Iran take their land, **** doze their houses and leave them with nothing to live for?

[Kermanshah1]

Yes but did Iran take their land, **** doze their houses and leave them with nothing to live for?

The Kurds in Northern Iraq aren't our enemies either. Iran has good relations with the PUK.

[Voozio]

+++++ BECAUSE IT VIOLATES INTERNATIONAL LAWS....did i say it clear ?

Hamas was elected completely democratic way....

Israel doesnt recognice palestinian state with -67 borders....

Israel is hostile entity towards to pales....

And you tell also that decision comes too late.....which mean that violating int. laws begins too late then....

Jesus christ what *orons.....

Electricity is not a basic human need. Water is.
Using your logic, mankind cant exist, because the use of electricity was discovered only some hundreds of years ago. As always mig21... You bore the hell out of me with your "brilliant" replies.
One thing you are obviously right about... We ARE enemies. Congratulations, you got it.

[Abbas]

Electricity is not a basic human need. Water is.
Using your logic, mankind cant exist, because the use of electricity was discovered only some hundreds of years ago.


Are you going to stand by that comment?

I dare you you to turn the electricity off for 12 hrs.

[Vladimir80]

True. They were a legitemately and democratically elected terrorists (From my point of view). A coup was an internal conflict. Between Fatah and Hamas.
It did not nullified the results of the previous elections.
True. We are not willing to negotiate with them.
True. Their way to "attract" our attention is terror. Seems logical to you?
Not to me. Its a magic circle situation.

The circle begins and ends with Israel... that's the difference.

Oh my god... Are you serious, Vladimir? You dont agree with what? The bombings of the German infrastracture during a war? You sure you are Russian?
Theres no ideal wars. The general population almost always will suffer from the war. No exceptions. Thats my own country included.

You are talking before the end of the war?? How does that relate to this when war has been over since 67' and you still continue to punish Palestinian peoples? I thought you were talking about after the fall.

No, Vladimir. We declare Gaza the hostile entity, because it is what it is. An enemy. Chosen by the Gazans themselves to represent them. Lets ask Palestinians, what they think about us...You reap what you sow.

Just because you declare Gaza a hostile entity does not make it so. Israel doesn't get to determine belligerent partys in a global issue. When you bomb and block mandated projects and programs you are breaking international law.

Once again you refuse to understand one simple thing... We are at war with each other. And its not started with this decision. When you are at war. You dont supply your enemy with electricity, my friend.

You have declared war on the people of Gaza... they have not declared war on you, just a few, but you punish the masses.


And i guess thats why this decision finally been achieved.

Every time you enter Gaza you always withdraw... what makes this any different?

[Voozio]

Yes but did Iran take their land, **** doze their houses and leave them with nothing to live for?

An old, beaten to death argument, Shia.
We can discuss it countless megabytes of pages. Kinda irrelevant in this case.
Because the decision is coming from Israel. Or maybe we should of ask what some of our OTHER enemies think about it? :wub2:

And its still doesnt change the simple fact: You would never supply your enemy with electricity. True or not?

[Voozio]

The circle begins and ends with Israel... that's the difference.
That is an opinion, Vladimir. I got my own opinion on the matter too.

You are talking before the end of the war?? How does that relate to this when war has been over since 67' and you still continue to punish Palestinian peoples? I thought you were talking about after the fall.
What are you talking about? We are living in peace with Pals since the end of the war in 1967? You sure you talking about the same Pals and Israelis?



Just because you declare Gaza a hostile entity does not make it so. Israel doesn't get to determine belligerent partys in a global issue. When you bomb and block mandated projects and programs you are breaking international law.
If someone punches your face and you punch it back too... Do you need the policeman to tell you that this man is your enemy?


You have declared war on the people of Gaza... they have not declared war on you, just a few, but you punish the masses.
I already answered you this. The civil population is always suffering in war.
Ask Hamas as to why they are bombing the city of Sderot. Isnt it the same, only worse?


Every time you enter Gaza you always withdraw... what makes this any different?

Thats a little bit off-topic... But anyway...
The objective is not to occupy Gaza. Its an incursion.
Usual objectives is to destroy weapon caches, qassam factories, arrests of wanted, intelligence. The reason for this operation is to try and minimize qassam rocket attacks on the constanly shelled city of Sderot.
The success of course will be relative. Attacks wont stop. However, inaction is not an option in this case.

[Voozio]

Are you going to stand by that comment?

I dare you you to turn the electricity off for 12 hrs.

Again. Its not a BASIC human need. Novadays, it CAN lead to the humanitarian crisis in a long-term of course.

[Abbas]

Again. Its not a BASIC human need. Novadays, it CAN lead to the humanitarian crisis in a long-term of course.


actually I agree with you, electricity is not a BASIC need for humans especially families with children.

nah, your right.

[Vladimir80]

That is an opinion, Vladimir. I got my own opinion on the matter too.

It wasn't the Palestinians who drove themselves off their land to be crammed into that little corner of hell.

What are you talking about? We are living in peace with Pals since the end of the war in 1967? You sure you talking about the same Pals and Israelis?

If you call what has occured since 67' peace you are not rational.


If someone punches your face and you punch it back too... Do you need the policeman to tell you that this man is your enemy?

A more accurate analogy, if 1 kid in a crowd punches you do you punish the whole crowd? I don't think so.

I already answered you this. The civil population is always suffering in war.
Ask Hamas as to why they are bombing the city of Sderot. Isnt it the same, only worse?

If you have a war then wage it on militant Hamas, not the people of Gaza. And you don't get to get away with calling everyone in Gaza a militant member of Hamas. You have to direct it in the appropriate manner or your just as bad as those you call terrorists.


Thats a little bit off-topic... But anyway...
The objective is not to occupy Gaza. Its an incursion.
Usual objectives is to destroy weapon caches, qassam factories, arrests of wanted, intelligence. The reason for this operation is to try and minimize qassam rocket attacks on the constanly shelled city of Sderot.
The success of course will be relative. Attacks wont stop. However, inaction is not an option in this case.

You're the one who brought up Chechnya to quantify your argument so it is indeed on topic. Our invasion was to put down the uprising, maintain order, and to rebuild the area. You never secure Gaza so it can become prosporous. Rather you run away and leave a swath of destruction in your wake and leave it to the international community to clean up your mess. If you want the attacks to stop you are going to have to build the Palestinians up rather than tearing them down. The reason Hamas wins elections is because they are the only ones that help the people, if Israel would do more humanitarian works in the occupied territories and actually help people Hamas would not be so popular.

[Voozio]

actually I agree with you, electricity is not a BASIC need for humans especially families with children.

nah, your right.

Walking "above earth" in Sderot is a basic human need. Especially for... everyone?

P.S.: Ever been in Africa? Ive been in Nigeria 3 years ago.

[indianguy]

Let's hope this ground offensive will be an other 2006 Lebanon conflict. Let's hope Hamas beats you like Hizbollah did.

No Hamas cant beat IDF like Hizbullah.

Gaza is in real controlled by Israel from every side and the only way for Hamas to get weapons is through Egpyt.

Israel in real has cut offed Gaza from rest of the world .

[Voozio]

It wasn't the Palestinians who drove themselves off their land to be crammed into that little corner of hell.
That is an opinion, Vladimir. I got my own opinion on the matter too.

Sorry for repeating. :)



If you call what has occured since 67' peace you are not rational.
I guess you haven't understand me. It was acctually me saying that your reference to the '67 was not rational.




A more accurate analogy, if 1 kid in a crowd punches you do you punish the whole crowd? I don't think so.
You still havent answered mine. :)
Do you need this policeman to tell you that his your enemy?



If you have a war then wage it on militant Hamas, not the people of Gaza. And you don't get to get away with calling everyone in Gaza a militant member of Hamas. You have to direct it in the appropriate manner or your just as bad as those you call terrorists.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4931/l5nu2.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/291/humanshieldsut9.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/211/hamashumanshieldsyv9.gif

I think you are intelligent enough to get the idea :)




You're the one who brought up Chechnya to quantify your argument so it is indeed on topic. Our invasion was to put down the uprising, maintain order, and to rebuild the area. You never secure Gaza so it can become prosporous. Rather you run away and leave a swath of destruction in your wake and leave it to the international community to clean up your mess. If you want the attacks to stop you are going to have to build the Palestinians up rather than tearing them down. The reason Hamas wins elections is because they are the only ones that help the people, if Israel would do more humanitarian works in the occupied territories and actually help people Hamas would not be so popular.

As an off-topic i ment the discussion of the next Gaza operation.
You are taking it off-topic. My reference to Chechnya was in context of supplying your enemy with things like electricity. Which is making no sense.
As for the rest... Try reconstructing something while you are being shot at.
You know, i cant forget this one small episode at the very first days of the current Intifada. Some Israeli was brave enough (and foolish) to take his car
to his Palestinian friend's garage at the territories.
It was said that this palestinian guy was a master. A true profi. He fixed the car, the israeli dude paid. He left, but never came home.

[Voozio]

No Hamas cant beat IDF like Hizbullah.

Gaza is in real controlled by Israel from every side and the only way for Hamas to get weapons is through Egpyt.

Israel in real has cut offed Gaza from rest of the world .

To be honest, i really think that this time it will be much much harder for IDF in Gaza strip.
Intel says they acquired a tremendous amount of RPGs since last year.

Anyway. Its still kinda OT. :)

[Abbas]

Walking "above earth" in Sderot is a basic human need. Especially for... everyone?

P.S.: Ever been in Africa? Ive been in Nigeria 3 years ago.


Why are you defending just electricity, according to you palestinians dont need houses as you destroy them, the dont need land so you steal them and they certainly dont need people so you might as well kill them.

you're right, they dont need anything, just kill them all and you will live peacefully forever.

Yes I lived in East Africa for 3 years, what are you trying to compare?

The corrupt governments of Africa to your Corrupt Govt?

or are you comparing the apartheid South Africans Suffered from as similar to the palestinians?

[Vladimir80]

That is an opinion, Vladimir. I got my own opinion on the matter too.

Sorry for repeating. :)

It's not an opinion, the Palestinians were kicked off the land. That is a fact.

I guess you haven't understand me. It was acctually me saying that your reference to the '67 was not rational.

That is how you acquired it and you call every action since then peace. Operation Summer Rain is not being at peace and only the unrational would state it as such.

You still havent answered mine. :)
Do you need this policeman to tell you that his your enemy?

You quanitify Hamas as all people of Gaza... the world is not so black and white.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4931/l5nu2.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/291/humanshieldsut9.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/211/hamashumanshieldsyv9.gif

I think you are intellegent enough to get the idea :)

Try reconstructing something while you are being shot at.
You know, i cant forget this one small episode at the very first days of the current Intifada. Some Israeli was brave enough (and foolish) to take his car
to his Palestinian friend's garage at the territories.
It was said that this palestinian guy was a master. A true profi. He fixed the car, the israeli dude paid. He left, but never came home.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=PA_WK2sag3w

Just like that huh?

[Voozio]

Why are you defending just electricity, according to you palestinians dont need houses as you destroy them, the dont need land so you steal them and they certainly dont need people so you might as well kill them.

you're right, they dont need anything, just kill them all and you will live peacefully forever.

Yes I lived in East Africa for 3 years, what are you trying to compare?

The corrupt governments of Africa to your Corrupt Govt?

or are you comparing the apartheid South Africans Suffered from as similar to the palestinians?

According to me? Gah! Thats the news for me, acctually. Where did i said that? I never been propaganding genocide in whatever form.
Have i ever chanted "Death to Palestinians/Iran/whatever !" ???
Threatened to killed anyone?
You are seriously confusing me with someone.
Could it be the bearded guy in your avatar? Or maybe mr.President of Iran?
Or Hamas by any chance?
Nah, im wrong of course. It was all mistranslated... misunderstood... taken out of the context... you name it.

Anyway. This thread is succesfully derailed to the undying accusations and usual Israeli-Palestinian conflict chatter. While still avoiding the initial thought:
"Under no condition you will not provide your enemy with any kind of supplies."
Yet, guess what... Water, fuel and electricity is still provided to Gaza by its enemies - Israel. We are asking for a medal for doing this? Hell, NO.

Yet, when my slow-thinking goverment finally says: "You know what? I guess we are enemies"... The "usual suspects" immediately starting the outcry.
Where were you, when we were declared as the enemies by those you support now?
Surprised? I feel for you. Really, i am.

@ Vladimir80.
In short. I guess i was wrong about you. You did not get it. My pictures is merely showing that Hamas acts from within a civilian population. Not that the civilians is Hamas. They are not an army. They are terrorists.

P.S: Night all.

[Abbas]

Great job of avoiding the arguments, you did well.

Sleep well and turn the light off.

[mig21bis]

Electricity is not a basic human need. Water is.

++++ Wake up to this world buddy....

"We think the Gaza people should not be deprived of basic necessities," EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana "

http://uk.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUKL20825179._CH_.242020070920

So do we come conclusion that you are living in candle light and woodrange....back to the nature maybe ?


Take a look in this link and all the electricity toys we have....im sorry that you are missing those....but....you take a glass of water instead :

http://www.elgiganten.se/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/store-elgigantenSE-Site/sv_SE/-/SEK/El_BrowseCatalog-Redirect






Using your logic,

++++ MY LOGIC....well thank you but i cant take credit from that....blame them :


http://www.btselem.org/english/press_releases/20070920.asp

http://www.acri.org.il/english-acri/engine/index.asp

http://www.bimkom.org/aboutEng.asp

http://www.hamoked.org/

http://www.phr.org.il/phr/

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=23894&Cr=palestin&Cr1=



And so forth....


mankind cant exist, because the use of electricity was discovered only some hundreds of years ago.

+++++ And someone is STILL missing some brains....



As always mig21... You bore the hell out of me with your "brilliant" replies.


++++ Well cry me a river....


One thing you are obviously right about... We ARE enemies.

++++ Who we ?


Congratulations, you got it.

++++ You Got It : Roy Orbison....

[Gonjeeshk]

So in this case id expect you to condemn constant shelling of the city of Sderot. Isnt it a collective punishment? Oh right, i forgot. They are just a bunch of Jews after all.

So, can anyone answer my previous question?
As an analogy i can provide you with this fictional example.
Imagine Iran providing electricity to the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Any takers?

Typical blo*dy zionist. Try and change the subject to allegations of being anti-jew, "They are just a bunch of Jews after all.". Very devious.

If anyone mentions the inconvenient facts of zionist behaviour, start portraying them as anti-jew. Very devious.:roflmao3:

Then try and change the argument again. What about the bombarding of "sderot"? Is this the israeli justification for punishing an entire people, regardless of whether they are resistance fighters or not? Classic zionist argument; two wrongs make a right. Unbelievable, gross hypocrisy.

Not content with occupying an entire people, besieging and cutting them off from the world, you now are trying to justify collectively punishing them by cutting off the very same services you reduced them to being dependent on you for? As if that wasn't enough, just to ensure the maximum punishment for all the besieged people, you now try to justify this AND the prevention of them being able to try and provide their own services by cutting off their fuel supply, needed to provide their own electricity.

Unbelievable. How Hitler would have been proud, if only he were alive now!

[mig21bis]

Few adds to your post :


Then try and change the argument again. What about the bombarding of "sderot"?

++++ To be honest....shooting rockets to Sderot IS a violation of international laws....no doubt about it....

BUT....Israel...who has ratified international laws....retaliate those shootings in methods that violate same laws....

If other side is violating Int. laws....it doesnt give the right to the other side violate those laws too....

Otherwise we soon are situation in future....when someone are shooting down 20 of our citizen....we can lawn down as much as we please the other side civilians and just say...."hey...they started that way..)



Int. laws are binding to both sides....but as israel....who has ratified those laws and is democratic country....not like his counterpart....it has morally and legally bigger responsibility to follow those laws....

( my personal view is that BOTH should have same obligation to follow those laws....state or not....ratified or not )



Is this the israeli justification for punishing an entire people, regardless of whether they are resistance fighters or not?

+++++ Thats right....resistance or not....it doesnt give right to punish the whole population....

[indianguy]

To be honest, i really think that this time it will be much much harder for IDF in Gaza strip.
Intel says they acquired a tremendous amount of RPGs since last year.

Anyway. Its still kinda OT. :)

Are u trying to say about those weapons which Americans and Israelis transferred to Fatah to eliminate Hamas, which are now under the control of Hamas in Gaza .

[Gonjeeshk]

Few adds to your post :


Then try and change the argument again. What about the bombarding of "sderot"?

++++ To be honest....shooting rockets to Sderot IS a violation of international laws....no doubt about it....

BUT....Israel...who has ratified international laws....retaliate those shootings in methods that violate same laws....

If other side is violating Int. laws....it doesnt give the right to the other side violate those laws too....

Otherwise we soon are situation in future....when someone are shooting down 20 of our citizen....we can lawn down as much as we please the other side civilians and just say...."hey...they started that way..)



Int. laws are binding to both sides....but as israel....who has ratified those laws and is democratic country....not like his counterpart....it has morally and legally bigger responsibility to follow those laws....

( my personal view is that BOTH should have same obligation to follow those laws....state or not....ratified or not )



Is this the israeli justification for punishing an entire people, regardless of whether they are resistance fighters or not?

+++++ Thats right....resistance or not....it doesnt give right to punish the whole population....

Well said. My point exactly.