Armenian genocide

[mig21bis]

Lets talk about it....has it been or not....hit it and show our links :

[Alienoz]

http://www.armenianlie.com/

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

Read if you want. It is too long to copy/paste.

I say there was a war between Ottomans and Russians. Armenians allied themselves with Russians. They attacked us.
1915 we deported them to Syria. Most probably some of them were killed.
After the communist revolution, armenians stayed one to one against Ottomans. At the end we won.

I can count at least 5 family members of mine who were killed during that time related to war/mass killing. I know exactly one of them was killed in Sarıkamış war.

[Aryamehr]

but are turks free to express their thoughts regarding this lie/fact?

[Alienoz]

Turks can not express their thoughts in Switzerland and France, as far as I know. In these two countries, speaking against the so called genocide is forbidden.

A political party leader of ours, Doğu Perinçek, İşçi Partisi/Workers' Party was brought into the court because of his speech against it. (In switzerland)

[kaiser_tr]

europeans love to talk about freedom of speech and democracy but in practice they fail bad in some issues:)

[Turok]

There are genocides against Turks and muslims we should talk about before caring about silly armenians, Ottoman hinterland (Balkans, Crimea, North Caucaus) fully inhabited with muslims and turks before Balkan, Turko-Rus wars and WW1. Series of genocides occurred in those lands and all those incidents planned in european capitals for purifying those lands from Muslims and Turks. It was the biggest crusade ever.. For ex. more than %50 of Bulgaria's population was muslim before Balkan Wars, now it is %10, in Crimea , Tatar/Turk population was constituting %90, now it is %5.. not to mention genocides in Romania, Greece, Serbia... not to mention genocide against circassians, adyges and other muslim Caucasian nations.. Those fvcking europeans talking BS about Turkey with their bloody hands..

[Akinci-Raider]

Turks can not express their thoughts in Switzerland and France, as far as I know. In these two countries, speaking against the so called genocide is forbidden.

A political party leader of ours, Doğu Perinçek, İşçi Partisi/Workers' Party was brought into the court because of his speech against it. (In switzerland)But Turks in USA are free to say anything against this lie.....I just started to read book called :the armenian massacres in ottoman Turkey-a disputed genocide by GUENTER LEWY.....

[Alienoz]

But Turks in USA are free to say anything against this lie.....I just started to read book called :the armenian massacres in ottoman Turkey-a disputed genocide by GUENTER LEWY.....

GÜNTER LEWY was a Jew, right? It is good to see some Jews helping our cause. I have read a book earlier about sabetayists (Dönme, from Jew to Muslim). They did wonderful things for both Ottoman Empire and Turkish Republic.

Only Jews stayed loyal to Ottoman and Turkiye. Others are traitors. Even some so called Turks are acting like traitor today. Especially the figures like Orhan Pamuk... We got a MP new in Parliament, U-f-u-k Uras. I can curse him for hours.

[Vladimir80]

GÜNTER LEWY was a Jew, right? It is good to see some Jews helping our cause.

Of course the Jews would help your cause... you both are nothing but American pawns. :no1:

[kaiser_tr]

actually usa is jew pawn:)

[Supreme]

If it was a lie why would the turks on this forum be all over this thread denying it :roflmao3:

[kaiser_tr]

cause manipulating armenians are spreading false propaganda

[Semkoko]

The reason we dont deny is It is a lie.We even don't want to get busy with it.It is a real lie which is reason make us give armenia land and money.Just like WW2 Jews got killed and US&UK&Europa gave them todays Israel.Armenians try to make the same thing.

[Vladimir80]

I really doubt if Turkey admitting century old war crimes will cause Armenia to gain Turkish land.

[Turok]

If it was a lie why would the turks on this forum be all over this thread denying it
So ? deny is the opposite action of acceptance and yes we don't accept those lies, because it is a lie and we say "it is a lie" , naturally people deny the lies and accept the truth. since it is a lie, we deny it. I think I make it clear..

[kaiser_tr]

I really doubt if Turkey admitting century old war crimes will cause Armenia to gain Turkish land.

a woman from cyprus(greek side) sued turkey because during the war her family's house remained in turkish land. european court found turkey guilty and sentenced usto pay compensation...

so in similar cases with armenians who left anatolia almost 100 years ago, this one may be precedent..

[Turok]

so in similar cases with armenians who left anatolia almost 100 years ago, this one may be precedent..
I don't think there is any armenian who can provide title deeds liike that cypriot woman did. Courts rule at the base of proofs like legal documents..

[hqthief]

They were killed in a war. If you get kicked in the back in a war, you shouldn't cry and say "genocide!"
They killed us first, we mass killed them later. I have armenian friends but even though I always try to be polite, they get on my nerves quite frequently.

[Akinci-Raider]

If it was a lie why would the turks on this forum be all over this thread denying it :roflmao3:Aryarakeans choose a wrong alies in ww1.....

[Akinci-Raider]

Of course the Jews would help your cause... you both are nothing but American pawns. :no1:What happen rusnya....you seem jealous.George S PATTON message to IKE :We should attack those SOB(sons of biatches)rusnyans whille our army is in Europe...soon or later we have to deal with those comunist bastards....

[Vladimir80]

What happen rusnya....you seem jealous.George S PATTON message to IKE :We should attack those SOB(sons of biatches)rusnyans whille our army is in Europe...soon or later we have to deal with those comunist bastards....

WTF?? :worried2:

[Chiloe]

Recognition of the Armenian Genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_the_Armenian_Genocide)

What reasons do you have for denying it if most of the world thinks it happened? (I'm not very familiar with this issue btw)

[kaiser_tr]

simple, it was no genocide. to call it genocide it must happen systematicaly or must be done by goverment&officers. armenians stabbed ottoman empire in the back during the russian-ottoman war in the east anatolia(both orthodox christian you know) then armenians revolted massacred thousands of turks&kurds while muslims couldnt touch them because of the russian shield over them.
when russia withdrawn from anatolia(soviet revolution) in 1917 armenians left with no protection and the folks who live in the region attacked them with the purpose of revenge. then ottoman goverment banished all armenians to syria(where they wouldnt have any contact with russians) during their exile many kurds&turks attacked them and killed thousands of them.

there are two things that i do not like in this so called genocide.

1-in 1920s the armenians claimed that the number was 100.000-200.000 and in 2007 the numbers somehow jumped to 1.5 million.

2-altough ottoman archieves are all opened to everyone, you cant get into armenian archieves cause they are restricted. why hiding?
when turkish goverment offered them to establish a council of historians to seek the truth they rejected the offer.

so dont want to start another turko*armenian debate in here.
all i want to say if you seek knowledge about the so called genocide thing, you should read the sources of both sides.

[kaiser_tr]

here is a website about armenian genocide. its the first site when you search in google

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html

[Chiloe]

But surely these historians must have credible evidence to support these claims?

I'm sure a huge amount of study has been put into this issue by these historians. They wouldn't just say it happened without credible knowledge.

[kaiser_tr]

if they are so sure about it, why hiding their sources? why not participating in councils which would search for the truth. no sir; the only thing that keeps little armenian population together is this genocide thing. if they give up working for it, they may loose their identity

[Vladimir80]

if they are so sure about it, why hiding their sources? why not participating in councils which would search for the truth. no sir; the only thing that keeps little armenian population together is this genocide thing. if they give up working for it, they may loose their identity

They do share their sources... the debate has been held and passed on by many countries including most of the state legislatures in the US. Even last Iranian president visted the memorial giving it defacto recognition from Iran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_the_Armenian_Genocide


http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html

How about a source that doesn't have .tr in the address... a little biased isn't it. :worried2:

[Chiloe]

Few videos on it:

YouTube search results (http://ie.youtube.com/results?search_query=armenian+genocide&search=Search)

Videos saying it happened
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fqa9ot4GNZ8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JJ-HcshI3cA

Videos saying it did not happen

http://ie.youtube.com/user/hasanyst

Many episodes on the above link.

[atilla]

these aren't objective videos. These are Armenian propagandas.

[WuzHappin]

Recognition of the Armenian Genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_the_Armenian_Genocide)

What reasons do you have for denying it if most of the world thinks it happened? (I'm not very familiar with this issue btw)

"Most of the world" does not "think" it happened. The wikipedia article you have linked mentions that 22 countries in total have recognized it. 22 countries does not constitute "most of the world".

The article also says that there is "some" agreement among historians that it was a "genocide". "Some" agreement in this case should be read as there is "no agreement".

Moreover, the Republic of Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman Empire does not exist, it was actually the Republic of Turkey that actually rebelled against the Ottoman Empire and finally burried it. The Republic of Turkey can not be held responsible for the actions of the Ottomans and Ottoman officials.

Even the Ottomans did not commit genocide against the Armenians though and I will explain why it can not be called a genocide:

There is no proof whatsoever that the Ottomans (not the Turks) had in mind to wipe the Armenians out systematically.
The Ottoman Empire at the time was at war and financially broke, at such a time why would they spend tons of money and resources on deportating the Armenians instead of just killing them on the spot if they indeed planned wiping out the Armenian population. Killing them on the spot would certainly be more cheaper and much more effective. They did not, they deportated the Armenians, that was their intention, deportation not genocide. Massacres did occur and both sides commited them but the Ottoman State was not responsible. Ottoman officers were in fact ordered to protect the Armenians while they were being deportated.
In sum, there was no government sponsored genocide, there were only massacres commited by both sides and there was a resettlement program.

And let's not forget that most Armenians who were deportated to Ottoman provinces of Syria, Palestine, Lebanon etc survived, there are hundreds of thousands of Armenians in these countries right now.

There were many Armenian officials (as well as greek, kurd) in the Ottoman government at the time. Would the Armenian officials themselves order a genocide on fellow Armenians?

If there was a genocide, why were the Armenians in Istanbul, Izmir and other cities spared? It was not because these cities were under foreign observation, there were missionaries, diplomats, journalists in the most distant places of the Ottoman empire as well.

If the Armenians are so convinced a genocide occurred, and assuming their typically exemplary character suffers a shortfall by not recognizing the terms of the Leninakan treaty, why don’t they take their case to an international legal body, such as the World Court? I understand the Azerbaijanis took their case of being massacred by the Armenians in the early 1990s to the court in The Hague.

Why did the Ottoman government pursue, arrest, try and convict – to the extent of actually executing, in some cases – their own officials and soldiers who had erred in carrying out the Armenian relocation orders? Twenty men were executed in 1915, and many more (among a thousand) were likely punished in less extreme ways.

Why was every single Ottoman official, incarcerated for war crimes during the nearly two-and-a-half years of the Malta Tribunals, finally acquitted? Especially when they were in the hands of the occupying British force, a country (among others, but mainly it was Lloyd George’s Great Britain) who tried to wipe Turkey off the face of the earth... and every Ottoman document was freely available (before the days “shredding” would come to mind) to the Allies and their crack team of Armenian researchers?

[WuzHappin]

But surely these historians must have credible evidence to support these claims?

I'm sure a huge amount of study has been put into this issue by these historians. They wouldn't just say it happened without credible knowledge.


Ever heard of the Malta trials?

You know why the Armenians REFUSE to take their case to an International tribunal like the Haugue tribunal or the World Court? Why don't they?

A lot of study HAS been made into the subject by both armenian, Turkish and western historians, there is NO agreement among them. The most important thing is that the Turkish archives are open for all historians and scholars but the Armenians are keeping their own archives closed. Why?

The Armenian tactic is to pursuade other countries to acknowledge the so called genocide by POLITICAL means, behind closed doors and without and scrutiny of their claims and without any academic debate. They do not wan't to discuss it in an academic and sholarly forum. In fact they do not want to have an open discussion at all, they want you to shut up and just recognize it without questioning what they say. All countries that have recognized the so called genocide have done this without any disscussion with fair and objective historians. Observe that most of these countries also have a big Armenian population, France, Canada, Lebanon for example.
They have made it a political issue, not a historic and academic one.

[WuzHappin]

How about a source that doesn't have .tr in the address... a little biased isn't it. :worried2:

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2005/07/2-armenian-falsified-genocide-brief_08.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG70UWESfu4&feature=related


http://www.azerigenocide.org/

http://www.khojaly.org.az/

Start with these, when you're done let me know..you will get more homework.

[Sokuy30]

Just remember Movie called "Ararat", I have Armenian friend He still think I am Turk!
http://www.ararat-the-movie.com/
Intersting Site,

[oldboy]

Don't take it personally but:

In denying any genocide taking place in regards to the 1917 massacre of the Armenians you have said and I quote:


when russia withdrawn from anatolia(soviet revolution) in 1917 armenians left with no protection and the folks who live in the region attacked them with the purpose of revenge.

then ottoman goverment banished all armenians to syria(where they wouldnt have any contact with russians) during their exile many kurds&turks attacked them and killed thousands of them.


with regards to the first line:

Technically speaking that (in your own words) is a clear definition of genocide. any collective punitive action on civillians for any reason ( no matter what's the justification) is considered a war crime and a crime against humanity. since this was done by a particular group of people against another distinct (racial an/or religious) group it is (By definition) rightfully deemed as genocide.

With regards to the second line:

again, putting a defenceless group of civillians in a situation where they will be most vulnerable to attack, pillage, rape, etc. is by definition considered a war crime and for the same reason I mentioned above, considered an act of genocide

Mind you I'm not Armenian but the disgusting public amnesia and denial in Turkey in regards to that massacre isn't going to whitewash the truth.
Also (reading your own post), haggling over the number of people killed in that atrocity isn't going to make it any less heinous.

The only reason Turkey has never been brought to account for that savage deed is it's presence in NATO. The US and her allies will never allow it as long as they need Turkey in such a geopolitically strategic area of the world.

Saddam commited horrific crimes against Kurds and Iranian troops by his extensive use of chemical weapons during the 80-88 Iran-Iraq war yet untill he crossed his masters (i.e. the US) he was never held responsible for any of those deeds.
I believe it was a pentagon official who said this thing about Saddam Hussein: "We knew he was a son of a *****; But he was our son of a *****"

Fortunately all "SOB"s have shelf lives. It's better for the Turkish leaders to apologise now rather than later when that shelf life expires (no matter how unlikely).

Good Luck Everyone

Oldboy

[kaiser_tr]

Definition of Genocide: Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

to call it genocide it has to be systematic like nazis did during WWII. if you call what turks&kurds did genocide then what must be said about armenians who also killed thousands of turks&kurds during russian invasion?

it was not goverment policy nor something systematic. it was only act of revenge. it was not much different than what russians did after they broke into east prussia at the end of WWII.


Saddam commited horrific crimes against Kurds and Iranian troops by his extensive use of chemical weapons during the 80-88 Iran-Iraq war yet untill he crossed his masters (i.e. the US) he was never held responsible for any of those deeds.

this example is good to see the difference. saddam's massacres were goverment policy and its made systematically.

[WuzHappin]

Technically speaking that (in your own words) is a clear definition of genocide. any collective punitive action on civillians for any reason ( no matter what's the justification) is considered a war crime and a crime against humanity. since this was done by a particular group of people against another distinct (racial an/or religious) group it is (By definition) rightfully deemed as genocide.




Technically speaking there is no universal definition of genocide. Different groups and NGO's may claim that the massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire (AND the massacres of Armenians commited against TURKS) was a "genocide" but the Republic of Turkey can still not be legally punished and this is why:

The ONLY legal definition of of the punishable crime of genocide is found in the articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II deals with the elements of the crime of genocide and I will quote,

1. The mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such".

2. The physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

These five acts are:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.



Article III says that the following acts are punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide.




If you care to read my previous posts carefully, you will see that the Armenians can not prove that the Ottomans commited genocide, they can only prove that there were massacres and even these were not state-sponsored. There was simply no intent, attempt, incitement or conspiracy to commit genocide. And this is precisely why the Armenians have not taken their case to an international tribunal.



By your imaginery "definition" of genocide BOTH the Armenians and Turks commited genocide and still the Ottoman state and government, let alone the modern Republic of Turkey, are not guilty of the crime of genocide.

The International Criminal Court accepts the above definition only and provides a broader jurisdiction. Noteworthy is the fact that USA has not even signed the ICC so even the above convention on genocide is not that trustworthy. :)




Here are some examples of genocides commited around the world if we would use some randon definitions of the term:


110 million people, is due to communist governments, especially the USSR under Lenin and Stalin and their successors (62 million murdered), and China under Mao Tse-tung (35 million). Some other totalitarian or authoritarian governments are also largely responsible for this toll, particularly Hitler's Germany (21 million murdered) and Chiang Kai-chek's Nationalist government of China (about 10 million).

Other governments that have murdered lesser millions include

Armenia (Azerbejcan)
Khmer Rouge Cambodia
Japan
North Korea
English Empire (Sudan, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan)
Australia (Aboriginal people)
Mexico
Poland
Russia
Rwanda
Vietnam
Tito and Milosevic era Yugoslavia
France (Algeria)
Belgium (Congo)
USA (native americans)
Canada (native americans)
USA (Philippines, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, Central America)


This illustrates that with your "definition" genocide is not the exception in the history of mankind but rather the rule and we could count hundreds, if not thousands of genocides commited by different groups of people and governments.


But let us forget all that, the "brownies", the "*****z", the "injuns", the "goons", the "mudslims" and all these people in the periphery..it was long time ago and things were complicated, civil wars etc these people don't count right? Let us not get off topic and concentrate on the Turks instead. :)

[oldboy]

Definition of Genocide: Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

to call it genocide it has to be systematic like nazis did during WWII. if you call what turks&kurds did genocide then what must be said about armenians who also killed thousands of turks&kurds during russian invasion?

it was not goverment policy nor something systematic. it was only act of revenge. it was not much different than what russians did after they broke into east prussia at the end of WWII.

this example is good to see the difference. saddam's massacres were goverment policy and its made systematically.

Just because the Armenians allegedly killed turks and kurds during the russian invasion doesn't make it right for the Turks to do the same.

There is nothing in international law justifying revenge killings.

In regards to what you said about government policy, are you saying the annexation of the cacucasus wasn't part of the Ottoman foreign policy?

Good Luck Everyone

Oldboy

"In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
"You look surprised, Blackadder."
"I certainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."

[WuzHappin]

again, putting a defenceless group of civillians in a situation where they will be most vulnerable to attack, pillage, rape, etc. is by definition considered a war crime and for the same reason I mentioned above, considered an act of genocide




You fail. Again.

A war crime may be a genocide but not necessarily. All war crimes are not genocides. For example mistreatment of POW is considered a war crime but not a genocide, rape is a war crime but not a genocide, torture is a war crime but not a genocide, random massacres are war crimes but not a genocide.

By your definition USA and Britain and the "Coalition of the Willing" are guilty of genocide in Iraq and Afghanistan because they have commited war crimes (Abu Ghraib, killings of civilians, rape etc).

Ottoman citizens (Turks against Armenians and Armenians against Turks) commited war crimes but not genocide. The Ottoman government was innocent, Turkish republic did not even exist and is in no way the continuation of the Ottoman empire.

End of story.


Mind your own business.

[WuzHappin]

Just because the Armenians allegedly killed turks and kurds during the russian invasion doesn't make it right for the Turks to do the same.

There is nothing in international law justifying revenge killings.

[/B]

You fail. Third time.


You are right that international law does not justify revenge killings but it does not justify killings of civilians to gain territory either.

Here is the number of Turks killed by Armenians:

http://www.armenianreality.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=13

There was no state-sponsored genocide only Armenians killing Turks and Turks killing Armenians, there were war crimes commited by indivudials on both sides.

There is nothing in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide that says individual war crimes is a state-sponsored genocide.

You fail.

[oldboy]

Technically speaking there is no universal definition of genocide. Different groups and NGO's may claim that the massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire (AND the massacres of Armenians commited against TURKS) was a "genocide" but the Republic of Turkey can still not be legally punished and this is why:

The ONLY legal definition of of the punishable crime of genocide is found in the articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II deals with the elements of the crime of genocide and I will quote,

1. The mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such".

2. The physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

These five acts are:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.



Article III says that the following acts are punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide.




If you care to read my previous posts carefully, you will see that the Armenians can not prove that the Ottomans commited genocide, they can only prove that there were massacres and even these were not state-sponsored. There was simply no intent, attempt, incitement or conspiracy to commit genocide. And this is precisely why the Armenians have not taken their case to an international tribunal.



By your imaginery "definition" of genocide BOTH the Armenians and Turks commited genocide and still the Ottoman state and government, let alone the modern Republic of Turkey, are not guilty of the crime of genocide.

The International Criminal Court accepts the above definition only and provides a broader jurisdiction. Noteworthy is the fact that USA has not even signed the ICC so even the above convention on genocide is not that trustworthy. :)




Here are some examples of genocides commited around the world if we would use some randon definitions of the term:


110 million people, is due to communist governments, especially the USSR under Lenin and Stalin and their successors (62 million murdered), and China under Mao Tse-tung (35 million). Some other totalitarian or authoritarian governments are also largely responsible for this toll, particularly Hitler's Germany (21 million murdered) and Chiang Kai-chek's Nationalist government of China (about 10 million).

Other governments that have murdered lesser millions include

Armenia (Azerbejcan)
Khmer Rouge Cambodia
Japan
North Korea
English Empire (Sudan, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan)
Australia (Aboriginal people)
Mexico
Poland
Russia
Rwanda
Vietnam
Tito and Milosevic era Yugoslavia
France (Algeria)
Belgium (Congo)
USA (native americans)
Canada (native americans)
USA (Philippines, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, Central America)


This illustrates that with your "definition" genocide is not the exception in the history of mankind but rather the rule and we could count hundreds, if not thousands of genocides commited by different groups of people and governments.


But let us forget all that, the "brownies", the "*****z", the "injuns", the "goons", the "mudslims" and all these people in the periphery..it was long time ago and things were complicated, civil wars etc these people don't count right? Let us not get off topic and concentrate on the Turks instead. :)

Dear wazhuppin my definition of genocide was (for the sake of being concise) a gist of the five conditions you've listed as part of the UN convention on genocide. unfortunately the interpretation of the convention depends on which side of the arguement one is.

if you don't believe it was genocide I can't change your mind. it's your prerogrative.

the armenian genocide was the first one of it kind in the 20th century and it gains significance when we realise that a maniac like adolf hitler was actually inspired by that massacre.

As you know 22 countries and 40 US states recognise that event as genocide. At the moment the federal government doesn't officially use the term genocide however the good news is that the US resolution on Armenian Genocide (despite opposition from Bush & Co and intense lobbying by Turkey) is still alive (despite the current stalemate).

Unfortunately I don't subscribe to the argument that because many years have passed since the massacre there's no point in discussing such things. The horror of the holocaust is still fresh as if it happened yesterday. ignoring the past will only lead to more Rwandas and Darfurs.

There's an old russian saying:

"Dwell on the past and you'll lose an eye

Forget the past and you'll lose both eyes"

Good Luck Everyone

Oldboy

[WuzHappin]

1. Dear wazhuppin my definition of genocide was (for the sake of being concise) a gist of the five conditions you've listed as part of the UN convention on genocide. unfortunately the interpretation of the convention depends on which side of the arguement one is.

No, your definition was not the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide you did not mention the articles II and III of that Convention. These are the most important articles of the Convention, they give the legal definition of what constitutes a genocide.

Of course there are two sides or more to every issue but it is the Armenians who have to present proof. I have explained to you in detail why it was not a genocide what is YOUR argument? And why have the Armenians not taken their case to an international tribunal? Genocide is a serious business and you will not accuse my country and my ancestors of such a disgusting crime without facing the consequences.


if you don't believe it was genocide I can't change your mind. it's your prerogrative.

The difference between me and you is that you have opinions, I have facts and knowledge. I have made some research and I know the arguments of both sides. You, however are completely biased and an ignorant because so far you have not presented any knowledge about the matter at all. I am sure that you have not even for a minute listened to the Turkish side. You have made up your mind in advance.

the armenian genocide was the first one of it kind in the 20th century and it gains significance when we realise that a maniac like adolf hitler was actually inspired by that massacre.

This is simply wrong and a very good example of anti-Turkish propaganda. Hitler was NOT inspired by Turks. The "Hitler quote" is just an Armenian propaganda. Even Armenians know this.
If you wan't to know more about 20th century genocides check out the ones I mentioned in my earlier posts commited by the British Empire, France, USA, etc.

As you know 22 countries and 40 US states recognise that event as genocide. At the moment the federal government doesn't officially use the term genocide however the good news is that the US resolution on Armenian Genocide (despite opposition from Bush & Co and intense lobbying by Turkey) is still alive (despite the current stalemate).

If you think that Turkish lobbying against the Armenian lobbies has intensified you have not seen anything yet. Turkey and Turks have been too silent until now, we have let the Armenians demonize us, but we have only started.

Unfortunately I don't subscribe to the argument that because many years have passed since the massacre there's no point in discussing such things. The horror of the holocaust is still fresh as if it happened yesterday. ignoring the past will only lead to more Rwandas and Darfurs.

When it comes to such a serious crime as genocide one must be serious and objective, not selective and subjective as you have presented yourself so far. You completely ignore the facts and the arguments of the other side and you have lost all credibility.

And I tell you once again, you fail to even comment on the other genocides I have listed in my other posts that should rightfully be considered as genocides by your own definition of the word.

You did not come here with an open mind, to discuss the matter, to listen to our arguments. You are biased and selective expecting us to accept the lies that are being carried out against us. You have presented yourself as anti-Turkish, a Turk-hater and a racist. You have no credibility and nothing of value to add to the discussion. I think this sub-forum would be better of without you and I would appreciate if you would leave. Thank you.


Genocide for dummies:

Killers: Muslims
Victims: Christians
Definiton: It’s definitely a Genocide


Killers: Christians
Victims: Muslims
Definiton: It’s definitely not a Genocide. Please refer to such events as “War” or “Civil Conflict”


Killers: Germans, French, Dutch, Poles, Greeks, Armenians, Slavs etc.
Victims: European Jews
Definiton: It’s a Genocide – But only the Germans are guilty


Killers: Muslims
Victims: Muslims
Definiton: It’s a Genocide (If the victims are the West’s allies or the killers are the West’s enemy)
It’s not a Genocide (If the killers are the West’s allies or the victims are the West’s enemy)

Killers: Christians
Victims: Christians
Definiton: Incomplete data. Unable to make a judgement. Please provide the skin colour of the killers and the victims.


Killers: The West
Victims: Peoples of the 3rd World
Definiton: Definitely not a Genocide. Use terms like Anti-Terrorism, Overseas conflict, War against oppressive regimes, etc

[kaiser_tr]

Just because the Armenians allegedly killed turks and kurds during the russian invasion doesn't make it right for the Turks to do the same.

There is nothing in international law justifying revenge killings.

In regards to what you said about government policy, are you saying the annexation of the cacucasus wasn't part of the Ottoman foreign policy?

Good Luck Everyone

Oldboy

"In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
"You look surprised, Blackadder."
"I certainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."


of course there is no excuse for what turks&kurds did. its terrible and i'm sorry for everyone died during those days. but is turks the only one to blame? armenians and turks lived together for hundreds of years and suddenly in 1915 we decided to kill them all? isnt it strange? both sides massacred eachother but just because turks were outnumbered and killed more makes them the genocider?

[Charpan]

Lets talk about it....has it been or not....hit it and show our links :

lets not , president bush vetoed its recognition

[Arashi]

of course there is no excuse for what turks&kurds did. its terrible and i'm sorry for everyone died during those days. but is turks the only one to blame? armenians and turks lived together for hundreds of years and suddenly in 1915 we decided to kill them all? isnt it strange? both sides massacred eachother but just because turks were outnumbered and killed more makes them the genocider?

Weren't there massacres before the Armenian Genocide aswell?

[kaiser_tr]

no not at all. plus there were a lot of armenian pashas and other officers in the ottoman palace

[Supreme]

Weren't there massacres before the Armenian Genocide aswell?

yeah there was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

[Arashi]

no not at all. plus there were a lot of armenian pashas and other officers in the ottoman palace

So the Adana and Hamidian massacres are made up (according to you, that is), aswell? Also, what are the average Turks' thoughts on the mass-killing of Assyrians?

[kaiser_tr]

adana and hamidian massacres were ethnic clash between two groups. it was not smthng forgivable but it was also not genocide. messacre? yes...violence? hell yes. but not genocide.

[eastman]

What is the sum of money Armenians want to recieive in case Turkey recognises the genocide? I thing this is quite important factor in this whole genocide case.

[oldboy]

No, your definition was not the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide you did not mention the articles II and III of that Convention. These are the most important articles of the Convention, they give the legal definition of what constitutes a genocide.

Of course there are two sides or more to every issue but it is the Armenians who have to present proof. I have explained to you in detail why it was not a genocide what is YOUR argument? And why have the Armenians not taken their case to an international tribunal? Genocide is a serious business and you will not accuse my country and my ancestors of such a disgusting crime without facing the consequences.




The difference between me and you is that you have opinions, I have facts and knowledge. I have made some research and I know the arguments of both sides. You, however are completely biased and an ignorant because so far you have not presented any knowledge about the matter at all. I am sure that you have not even for a minute listened to the Turkish side. You have made up your mind in advance.



This is simply wrong and a very good example of anti-Turkish propaganda. Hitler was NOT inspired by Turks. The "Hitler quote" is just an Armenian propaganda. Even Armenians know this.
If you wan't to know more about 20th century genocides check out the ones I mentioned in my earlier posts commited by the British Empire, France, USA, etc.



If you think that Turkish lobbying against the Armenian lobbies has intensified you have not seen anything yet. Turkey and Turks have been too silent until now, we have let the Armenians demonize us, but we have only started.



When it comes to such a serious crime as genocide one must be serious and objective, not selective and subjective as you have presented yourself so far. You completely ignore the facts and the arguments of the other side and you have lost all credibility.

And I tell you once again, you fail to even comment on the other genocides I have listed in my other posts that should rightfully be considered as genocides by your own definition of the word.

You did not come here with an open mind, to discuss the matter, to listen to our arguments. You are biased and selective expecting us to accept the lies that are being carried out against us. You have presented yourself as anti-Turkish, a Turk-hater and a racist. You have no credibility and nothing of value to add to the discussion. I think this sub-forum would be better of without you and I would appreciate if you would leave. Thank you.


Genocide for dummies:

Killers: Muslims
Victims: Christians
Definiton: It’s definitely a Genocide


Killers: Christians
Victims: Muslims
Definiton: It’s definitely not a Genocide. Please refer to such events as “War” or “Civil Conflict”


Killers: Germans, French, Dutch, Poles, Greeks, Armenians, Slavs etc.
Victims: European Jews
Definiton: It’s a Genocide – But only the Germans are guilty


Killers: Muslims
Victims: Muslims
Definiton: It’s a Genocide (If the victims are the West’s allies or the killers are the West’s enemy)
It’s not a Genocide (If the killers are the West’s allies or the victims are the West’s enemy)

Killers: Christians
Victims: Christians
Definiton: Incomplete data. Unable to make a judgement. Please provide the skin colour of the killers and the victims.


Killers: The West
Victims: Peoples of the 3rd World
Definiton: Definitely not a Genocide. Use terms like Anti-Terrorism, Overseas conflict, War against oppressive regimes, etc

Tough talk! I haven't made you angry, have I?

1. In regards you calling me ignorant I won't dignify it with an answer as you simply lack manners.
2. Don't use the "Race Card" by calling me racist. It's a bad habit and just makes you look stupid. Where I come from, only losers and slackers call every one else racist as an excuse for their shortcomings.
3. You present the fact that I haven't got around talking about the other examples of genocide (that you have rightfully mentioned) as proof of you argument, which is meaningless. The thread is about the Armenian Genocide so I'd rather stick to the main subject.
4. I don't know if you're Turkish or not but I can tell you one thing. you don't sound like the many enlightened Turkish friends and colleagues I have met in my work and life.
5. Why do you instantly assume that anyone who dares to question the official turkish line on the Armenian issue is Anti-Turk? retort all you want but do it in a civilised and polite way. don't make assumptions about your opponent in a debate. You'd be surprised if you knew me.
6. Sooner or later Turkey will enter the final talks on joining us in the EU and you should expect more and more people debating this rather thorny subject. getting angry will only serve to weaken your position and don't say you're not angry; your post is reeking with it.
7. This forum is not your private personal property. Anyone can join the debate. So I'll participate in the thread for as long as I wish.
8. In regards to the "Dummies" rant at the end, the least said the better. Dude, if you have a problem with "Christians", "Westerners", "Jews", etc, Hey it's your problem bro, deal with it; just don't inflict it on the rest of us. we in Europe have managed to live together in peace for some time now and would love to keep it that way. Hateful rants have no place in the future Europe (where Turkey will hopefully be a member).

I suggest you start practicing from now. This forum would be an excellent place to start.
I hope to read more of your contributions.

Good Luck Everyone

Oldboy

[kaiser_tr]

they will demand first recognition, then money, then land(eastern anatolia)

[Arashi]

they will demand first recognition, then money, then land(eastern anatolia)

I doubt a recognition would grant them rights to any land, really.

[oldboy]

The recognition (If any) would probabely be symbolic. I don't think any money will change hands.

Good Luck Everyone

Oldboy

"In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
"You look surprised, Blackadder."
"I certainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."

[dogukan]

I doubt a recognition would grant them rights to any land, really.

nope...they weill have the right to demand money and then.....I don't have a source because I'm too lazy...it's logical anyways

[Sokuy30]

Let's not beat around the Bushes what happened, happened.
We have some jumping cats members with Armenian origin, Not a pip out of him!
Money is not going to solve the problem, Just acceptance and apology will go a long way.

[Arashi]

nope...they weill have the right to demand money and then.....I don't have a source because I'm too lazy...it's logical anyways

Yeah, good luck suing the Ottoman empire.

[Charpan]

The recognition (If any) would probabely be symbolic. I don't think any money will change hands.

Good Luck Everyone

Oldboy

"In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
"You look surprised, Blackadder."
"I certainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."

in time and at the right opportunity it could if it's reconed in the first place ; not in form of money but land or some other disputed issue between armenia, azerbaijan and turkey

[Semkoko]

The recognition (If any) would probabely be symbolic. I don't think any money will change hands.

Good Luck Everyone

Oldboy

"In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
"You look surprised, Blackadder."
"I certainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."

Actually they declared they will demand,Armenia president said,If Turkey accepts genocide,we will demand money,but land can be disscusable.
If you dont believe you can search it.

[parm3nion]

I dont think that is an easy task to solve. It's not only about if it real happened or not and either not about an excuse. It's more complicated than it seems to be and turkey is very aware of that. I think its more a political than an ethical ( from ethic like moral not ethNical) question for turkey. Dont forget germany and jews.
Turkey would have to give back lands, to give money to recompensate the armenians the same way germany did to jews. Turkey is or not the Otoman Empire same way Germany is or not the 3rd reich. However they would pay.
And than it gets more complicated because after the armenians other groups will arise demanding for the same stuff, pontians, greeks, kurds etc.
Recognizing the armenian genocide would open pandoras box for turkey and they know it.

[Intrn'l_relations101]

Summary of Events Leading up to the Genocide
Somewhat surprisingly to many, Armenians and Turks lived in relative harmony in the Ottoman Empire for centuries. Armenians were known as the "loyal millet". During these times, although Armenians were not equal and had to put up with certain special hardships, taxes and second class citizenship, they were pretty well accepted and there was relatively little violent conflict. Things began to change for a number of reasons. Nationalism, a new force in the world, reared its head and made ethnic groupings self-conscious, and the Ottoman Empire began to crumble. It became known as "the sick man of Europe" and the only thing holding it together was the European powers' lack of agreement on how to split it up.

As other Christian minorities gained their independence one by one, the Armenians became more isolated as the only major Christian minority. Armenians and Turks began to have conflicting dreams of the future. Some Armenians began to call for independence like the Greeks and others had already received, while some Turks began to envision a new Pan-Turkic empire spreading all the way to Turkic speaking parts of Central Asia. Armenians were the only ethnic group in between these two major pockets of Turkish speakers and the nationalist Turks wanted to get rid of them altogether.

As European powers began to ask for assurances that Armenians receive better treatment, the government began to treat the Armenians worse and worse. From 1894-6 hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in the Hamidian Massacres ordered by Sultan Abdul Hamid II.

A coup by 'progressive' Young Turks in 1908 replacing the Sultans government was supported by Armenians. Unfortunately, promised reforms never came, and in fact a triumvirate of extreme Turkish nationalists took complete dictatorial control, Enver, Jemal and Talat. It was they who masterminded the plan to completely eradicate the Armenian race in a step towards fulfilling their pan-Turkic dreams.

The Turkish massacres of Armenians in 1894, 1895, 1896, and 1909 were still fresh in their minds. [1]

The Genocide

Places of mass killings & deportation routes. (Armenica.org)
A starved mother with her two starved childrenWorld War One gave the Young Turk government the cover and the excuse to carry out their plan. The plan was simple and its goal was clear. On April 24th 1915, commemorated worldwide by Armenians as Genocide Memorial Day, hundreds of Armenian leaders were murdered in Istanbul after being summoned and gathered. The now leaderless Armenian people were to follow. Across the Ottoman Empire (with the exception of Constantinople, presumably due to a large foreign presence), the same events transpired from village to village, from province to province.

The remarkable thing about the following events is the virtually complete cooperation of the Armenians. For a number of reasons they did not know what was planned for them and went along with "their" government's plan to "relocate them for their own good." First, the Armenians were asked to turn in hunting weapons for the war effort. Communities were often given quotas and would have to buy additional weapons from Turks to meet their quota. Later, the government would claim these weapons were proof that Armenians were about to rebel. The able bodied men were then "drafted" to help in the wartime effort. These men were either immediately killed or were worked to death. Now the villages and towns, with only women, children, and elderly left were systematically emptied. The remaining residents would be told to gather for a temporary relocation and to only bring what they could carry. The Armenians again obediently followed instructions and were "escorted" by Turkish Gendarmes in death marches.

The death marches led across Anatolia, and the purpose was clear. The Armenians were raped, starved, dehydrated, murdered, and kidnapped along the way. The Turkish Gendarmes either led these atrocities or turned a blind eye. Their eventual destination for resettlement was just as telling in revealing the Turkish governments goal: the Syrian Desert, Der Zor. Those who miraculously survived the march would arrive to this bleak desert only to be killed upon arrival or to somehow survive until a way to escape the empire was found. Usually those that survived and escaped received assistance from those who have come to be known as "good Turks," from foreign missionaries who recorded much of these events and from Arabs.

After The Genocide

Map of Wilsonian Armenia.After the war ended, the Turkish government held criminal trials and found the triumvirate guilty in abstentia. All three were later executed by Armenians. Turkey agreed to let the US draw the border between the newly born Republic of Armenia and the Turkish government. What is now called Wilsonian Armenia included most of the six western Ottoman provinces as well as a large coastline on the Black Sea. Cilicia, a separate Armenian region on the Mediterranean, was to be a French mandate. Mustafa Kemal's forces pushed the newly returned Armenian refugees and forces from these lands and forced a new treaty to be written which was an insult to Armenian victims. They were basically told never to return and that they would never receive compensation. The Kars and Ardahan provinces of Armenia were taken as well in an agreement with the Soviet Union.
Contemporary Events
On the 50th anniversary of the genocide, the scattered survivors of the genocide and their children around the world began commemorating the genocide on April 24th, the day which marked the start of the full-scale massacres in 1915. Many Armenian Genocide Monuments have been built around the world since, as well as smaller plaques and dedications.

The Turkish government has in the past few decades been denying that a genocide ever occurred and spending millions of dollars to further that view. This is adding insult to injury and will cause bad feelings to continue much longer than would otherwise be the case between the peoples. Those who say forget about it, it is in the past, are wrong. Unless crimes like this are faced up to and compensated for, they will be committed again and again by people who do not fear prosecution or justice. Read what Hitler said before beginning the Jewish Holocaust here.

A class action suit against New York Life insurance company by genocide survivors was filed in 1999. They were sued for not being forthcoming in paying up for policies of those killed in the genocide. The suit was settled in 2004 for $20 million, and payouts began to individuals and some Armenian charitable organizations.

A 2002 study by the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ), a New York-based human rights organization, ruled that the slaughter of some 1.5 million Armenians fits into the internationally accepted definition of genocide. The study was commissioned by TARC - a group of Armenians and Turks set up by the US State Department.

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocide

[Supreme]

you should use a different source

[Zakali]

Armenians first should remember Khojaly massacre agianst Azerbaijanis.

It has facts but Armenian genocide has not even facts.

[kaiser_tr]

pfff this thread should be closed. there are a lot of similar threads round here.

[Intrn'l_relations101]

Its more about the issue than the specific link.. you want lets put your favorite reliable "wikipedia"...? hahahh

[Iranium]

how about the assyrian and the kurdish genocide committed by the ottomans

[Intrn'l_relations101]

Then that says a lot about turkish track record..

[Sokuy30]

Hey professor, you finally came to reallity and posted real event!
Good thread. my friend bardibazian will approve!

[Intrn'l_relations101]

Hey professor, you finally came to reallity and posted real event!
Good thread. my friend bardibazian will approve!

quite offended by that comment..

I always had good threads..

Almost a thousand of them..

[Sokuy30]

quite offended by that comment..

I always had good threads..

Almost a thousand of them..
No offense was intended, My favorite subject,.
BTW, Request closure for you tube thread! and don't believe always what you read.

[Intrn'l_relations101]

I just reported what I saw on news.. and there were posts anyway..

[Intrn'l_relations101]

The threads were meant to generate reactions afterall..

[kaiser_tr]

how about the assyrian and the kurdish genocide committed by the ottomans

actually kurds were the ones who helped turks...so you're as guilty as we are. and so armenians are not innocent

[dogukan]

yeap Kurdish gangs did a lot of work there ;)

this Armenian genocide thing is making me sick....whichever forum I go I argue this...the bad thing is that media made it soooo obvious that even people who do not know where Anatolia says "you guys are killers"

[Intrn'l_relations101]

well thats how the world works, the same way we say iranians kill all ***s and prosecute all people. We are all infested with all those "social conscience" arguments we have to defend..

[Intrn'l_relations101]

Did Adolf Hitler draw Disney characters?

check this thread out..

[mango994]

yeap Kurdish gangs did a lot of work there ;)

this Armenian genocide thing is making me sick....whichever forum I go I argue this...the bad thing is that media made it soooo obvious that even people who do not know where Anatolia says "you guys are killers"

Now you know how we Israelis exactly feel... And think that in our incident it is 10 times larger, although the death scale is 10 times tinier...

[dogukan]

I already knew

[Kermanshah1]

Now you know how we Israelis exactly feel... And think that in our incident it is 10 times larger, although the death scale is 10 times tinier...

Only you guy's are still doing the killing right now...

[mango994]

The death scale is not a scale of genocide, and there's no policy of genocide.
I won't take this to off topic so I'm out now.

[Sokuy30]

The death scale is not a scale of genocide, and there's no policy of genocide.
I won't take this to off topic so I'm out now.
Do you accept Armenian genocide?

[mango994]

Accept as recognizing it happened, or accept as justifying it?

[arri]

Accept as recognizing it happened, or accept as justifying it?

Simple yes or no ...

[mango994]

Truly, I don't know. I did not investigate the issue, and from the neutral side it looks like both sides are waging propaganda wars. I choose not to pick a side because I simply don't know much about it.

[arri]

Truly, I don't know. I did not investigate the issue, and from the neutral side it looks like both sides are waging propaganda wars. I choose not to pick a side because I simply don't know much about it.

Typical and pathetic.

It's is amazing how nobody is allowed to even question the relationship between the Jewish genocide and intentional ethnic cleaning in Palestine but when it comes to others, Jews couldn't care less.

[Alienoz]

Truly, I don't know. I did not investigate the issue, and from the neutral side it looks like both sides are waging propaganda wars. I choose not to pick a side because I simply don't know much about it.

Right choice. I appreciate the point of view the Jews have. Let s leave it to historicians. we dont mix into Israelis' problems with others and they dont mix into ours.

[mango994]

Typical and pathetic.

It's is amazing how nobody is allowed to even question the relationship between the Jewish genocide and intentional ethnic cleaning in Palestine but when it comes to others, Jews couldn't care less.

And it's amazing how you rely your statement on the opinion of one.
Most Israelis fell for the "armenian net", they identify with the Armenians because they share the same event.
I am an exception.

[arri]

And it's amazing how you rely your statement on the opinion of one.
Most Israelis fell for the "armenian net", they identify with the Armenians because they share the same event.
I am an exception.

Since your Parliament shares your view, I would say that your view is that of the majority.

[Sokuy30]

Right choice. I appreciate the point of view the Jews have. Let s leave it to historicians. we dont mix into Israelis' problems with others and they dont mix into ours.
That is strange, No "conscious" in both side!
That is greatest Ignorance I have ever seen, You both need to watch movie called "Ararat",. Good luck.
Well I say it, Both Genocides happened. I don't owe anyone and no one owes me nothing, great Iranian spirit!:suspicious4::suspicious4:

[Kermanshah1]

Right choice. I appreciate the point of view the Jews have. Let s leave it to historicians. we dont mix into Israelis' problems with others and they dont mix into ours.

Cause you're the only pro-Zionist nation in the middle east.

[kaiser_tr]

Cause you're the only pro-Zionist nation in the middle east.

why would be against israel little kurd? we've never had any problems with them. actually they are the most friendly nation to us in whole ME

[Kermanshah1]

why would be against israel little kurd? we've never had any problems with them. actually they are the most friendly nation to us in whole ME

Well considering Turkey is not a muslim country, yes I agree. :tired1_24:

[kaiser_tr]

:) look who's saying this...mr.porkeater is accusing turkey for not being muslim...

like i give a s.hit for the religion of my country

[Kermanshah1]

:) look who's saying this...mr.porkeater is accusing turkey for not being muslim...

like i give a s.hit for the religion of my country

If you want to be a muslim, a christian, or a Jew than that's aiight with me, but what I can't stand with me is those "muslims" who obay the Islamic law as much as I do... If you want to be a muslim (or infact follow any religion) than you can't be selective of the rules, otherwise you are just not a muslim. And that goes for most of the Turks and in fact the country of Turkey.

[kaiser_tr]

If you want to be a muslim, a christian, or a Jew than that's aiight with me, but what I can't stand with me is those "muslims" who obay the Islamic law as much as I do... If you want to be a muslim (or infact follow any religion) than you can't be selective of the rules, otherwise you are just not a muslim. And that goes for most of the Turks and in fact the country of Turkey.

and for many iranians,arabs and even saudis too

[Kermanshah1]

and for many iranians,arabs and even saudis too

To a lesser extend, Turkey is just like a western country and the people live like that aswell.

[kaiser_tr]

have you been to turkey? which cities

[Sokuy30]

But you have to hand it to Israelis they are good at making friends. One thing they don't do is "sharing their bagels". It is sad to see how blind Turks are against atrocities that they can see but they close their eyes to the facts!
:frown3:, it is what it is.

[Kermanshah1]

have you been to turkey?

Yes, twice.

which cities

Antalya and Alanya. Before you start B-Sing me, yes I know they are not representative of the rest of Turkey considering it's tourist areas but this is not where I base this on. I've never been to Japan, but I know enough to know they are westernised.

What do you mean most of the Turks ? Turks don't only live in Turkey. By the way, in Iran we force people to act according to Islamic laws in public and if we remove one of the laws such as wearing hijab, many women will take off their hijab. And now if that happens, would you still call Iran a "Muslim Country" ?

When talking about Turks I'm refferring to the citizens of Tureky.

I'm against these forced rules in Iran, but over here in the Netherlands we don't ban it and most women from the middle east do wear it. But it's not only that, it's the whole way of life in Turkey, it's just the same as a western country. Now that isn't nececerely bad, but it isn't islamic.

[Alienoz]

That is strange, No "conscious" in both side!
That is greatest Ignorance I have ever seen, You both need to watch movie called "Ararat",. Good luck.
Well I say it, Both Genocides happened. I don't owe anyone and no one owes me nothing, great Iranian spirit!:suspicious4::suspicious4:

Lets say we give the responsibility of southern deserts like Palestine to the "Camels" and "Lions" while we Wolves take the responsibility of mountains and northern Tundra.

Secondly, I never fight on the side of Jew. We are neither their defender nor enemy.

Thirdly, about that genocide thing: It was hard times. MAtter of a survvival of a race= Turks. No one said: Lets clean some Armeanians. They pushed for an action. We sent them to Lebanon. To stay there and not to come back to Anatolia.

[Sokuy30]

Lets say we give the responsibility of southern deserts like Palestine to the "Camels" and "Lions" while we Wolves take the responsibility of mountains and northern Tundra.
You can say lions as many times you want, but if i was you I won't repeat "camels". Kurd have the mountains and wolves want it back!

Secondly, I never fight on the side of Jew. We are neither their defender nor enemy.
then let's wipe them off the map, they are invisible anyway"myth". when you all close your eyes to the fact of crime in Palestine that your country had played major roll in their existence is supporting the crime!

Thirdly, about that genocide thing: It was hard times. MAtter of a survvival of a race= Turks. No one said: Lets clean some Armeanians. They pushed for an action. We sent them to Lebanon. To stay there and not to come back to Anatolia.
Please just say it, we are in 21st century. it happened, accept it. survival defence is a crock!
how majority worry about minority?
Just tell them you are sorry and make a peace with yourselves. It is easy!
BTW, I love camels too, but what about those piglets in the picture, arent they cute? don't forget to feed them bgels.:roflmao3:

[Noor]

why would be against israel little kurd? we've never had any problems with them. actually they are the most friendly nation to us in whole ME

Stop calling him little kurd, he is Iranian, you should know that better than most based on your earlier theories of nationalities.:frown3:

[Kermanshah1]

Stop calling him little kurd, he is Iranian, you should know that better than most based on your earlier theories of nationalities.:frown3:

From his posts we can easily see he doesn't like Kurds...

[Noor]

From his posts we can easily see he doesn't like Kurds...

Also his theory was it doesn't matter about your race, and more about your nationality, so he contradicts his theory when he does this.:tired1_24:

[mango994]

Since your Parliament shares your view, I would say that your view is that of the majority.


Wrong again.
In many cases the parliament does not represent the public. Who knows, maybe the next parliament would change it, since the Israeli public was exposed to the Armenian genocide not very long time ago.

Besides, Israel faces a great problem, since Turkey would ban it, and Turkey is Israel's only supporter in the region. I believe that most of the parliament members recognize the massacre in their hearts, but prefer the nation's security and level of support over the recognition of something, that we don't even know if is a lie or not.

In overall, Israel prefers to remain neutral, it's not in the position to decide on such critical statements. I believe that if most of the world would go for recognition then Israel would follow.
It is indeed a shame, but we are carrying it. :err2:

[Iranium]

why would be against israel little kurd? we've never had any problems with them. actually they are the most friendly nation to us in whole ME

well you better be more respectful baldie:laugh4: cause in 50 years kurds are going to be the majority

[HMS_Hood]

Wrong again.
In many cases the parliament does not represent the public. Who knows, maybe the next parliament would change it, since the Israeli public was exposed to the Armenian genocide not very long time ago.

Besides, Israel faces a great problem, since Turkey would ban it, and Turkey is Israel's only supporter in the region. I believe that most of the parliament members recognize the massacre in their hearts, but prefer the nation's security and level of support over the recognition of something, that we don't even know if is a lie or not.

In overall, Israel prefers to remain neutral, it's not in the position to decide on such critical statements. I believe that if most of the world would go for recognition then Israel would follow.
It is indeed a shame, but we are carrying it. :err2:

But their hearts arent of much use to the armenians dont you think so ? you have to say it out loud like the US congress did if you are to recognize a holocaust like massacare.

[dogukan]

you're forgetting the 500 000 Turks who were killed in massacares...what about that.
Saying it was genocide and Turks are the responsible ones for that is just wrong...it was an ethnic fight....both sides were guilty.

[Kermanshah1]

well you better be more respectful baldie:laugh4: cause in 50 years kurds are going to be the majority

Than they don't need an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will become Kurdistan :biggrin1:

[Zakali]

Than they don't need an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will become Kurdistan :biggrin1:

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/NEWUSER_01_2007/hilarious.gif

Dream on Kurd.

[Iranium]

Than they don't need an independent Kurdistan, Turkey will become Kurdistan :biggrin1:

exactely, that is the beauty of democracy:laugh4:

[Kermanshah1]

exactely, that is the beauty of democracy:laugh4:

Turkey isn't exactly a democracy... But these Europe wannabes will probably change that by then so they are accepted into EU.

[dogukan]

democracy(simplified):leaders are chosen by the people
That pretty much works in Turkey ;)

About the future of Kurds......there porbablly will be a puppet state in Northern Iraq but possiblity is a weak chance...Turkey is strong enough to keep that land....and most importantly MOST of the Kurds would't go there

[Kermanshah1]

democracy(simplified):leaders are chosen by the people
That pretty much works in Turkey ;)

Only if you don't elect who the army wants you to elect they replace him with their own people.

About the future of Kurds......there porbablly will be a puppet state in Northern Iraq but possiblity is a weak chance...Turkey is strong enough to keep that land....and most importantly MOST of the Kurds would't go there

In 50 years Kurds will be the majority in Turkey, than you will be in trouble.

[dogukan]

do you watch news?
right now the leading party is totally against army's policies yet it's their second 4 year now.....
Last time army made a coup, the PM invited cultist SHEIK'S(which is forbidden in Turkey but still works secretly)...so army made a move and fixed the problem....it was in early 90s

[mango994]

But their hearts arent of much use to the armenians dont you think so ? you have to say it out loud like the US congress did if you are to recognize a holocaust like massacare.

The Holocaust case is different from the armenian case.
First, there is no clear fact about what really happened. If we go for something, and then find out we were wrong, it would be mark on our heads.
Second, Israel is in a critical status, all the time. Very relied on the politics and friendly countries around it, we give away a part of our security if we do that. Unlike Canada for example, which its relations with Turkey doesn`t matter for them.

[HMS_Hood]

The Holocaust case is different from the armenian case.
First, there is no clear fact about what really happened. If we go for something, and then find out we were wrong, it would be mark on our heads.
Second, Israel is in a critical status, all the time. Very relied on the politics and friendly countries around it, we give away a part of our security if we do that. Unlike Canada for example, which its relations with Turkey doesn`t matter for them.

so u're sacrificing jewish ethics for politics ?

[mango994]

What jewish ethics?

[Charpan]

What jewish ethics?

to recognize the suffering of another group of people.

[arri]

What jewish ethics?

Exactly. There is no such a thing.

[kaiser_tr]

Exactly. There is no such a thing.

ahaah that was a good :roflmao3:

[mango994]

to recognize the suffering of another group of people.

Our world is cruel sometimes, unfortunately.

Exactly. There is no such a thing.

I thought it was the jews whom you copied your religion from?

[Iranium]

I thought it was the jews whom you copied your religion from?

by that logic, you copied your religion from the zoroations. you copied the monotheistic system and the heaven/hell system from them :xmas_emot3:

[Iranium]

How do you explain this...copy cat

"Now it was from this very creed of Zoroaster that the Jews derived all the angelology of their religion...the belief in a future state; of rewards and punishments, ...the soul's immortality, and the Last Judgment - all of them essential parts of the Zoroastrian scheme." From The Gnostics and Their Remains (London 1887) by King and Moore quoted at 607a in Peake's Bible Commentary

[Charpan]

Our world is cruel sometimes, unfortunately.


but i read somewhere in the bible where it says : and tho shall not celebrate when your enemy fall....

[Intrn'l_relations101]

The armenian genocide was a massacre and there is no question about it. Stop playing Bill clinton on the Rwanda genocide. It is no longer a mere discourse but an accepted reality in our history.

[mustavaris]

If we start to talk about copies.. the copies tend to get worse and worse...

Hmh,

actually I haven´t thought about this like that.

It actually makes sense:)

Judaism and Zoroastrian faiths are pretty harmless, Christianity and Islam have wrought incredible havoc on Earth.

[Supreme]

The armenian genocide was a massacre and there is no question about it. Stop playing Bill clinton on the Rwanda genocide. It is no longer a mere discourse but an accepted reality in our history.

wow finally someone gets back on topic

[mango994]

I'm not going to turn this into a religious debate only because someone thinks he's funny when he mocks judaism.



but i read somewhere in the bible where it says : and tho shall not celebrate when your enemy fall....

We're not celebrating... :err2:

[Intrn'l_relations101]

Bible? then the joke is about judaism?

[Fatih1989]

Jews Being Peace full yeah right

[dogukan]

Jews Being Peace full yeah right

two things
-if you look at history Jews caused 23452345 times less violance than Muslims and Christians(I doubt about your history though)
-Violance caused/or acts of defence (no comment on that) by Israel today is not because of religion

[Intrn'l_relations101]

two things
-if you look at history Jews caused 23452345 times less violance than Muslims and Christians(I doubt about your history though)
-Violance caused/or acts of defence (no comment on that) by Israel today is not because of religion

hello look at their population, ofcourse they would cause lesser violence but proportionaly they now lead the most infamous conflict in ME.

Still the Armenian genocide was the most barbaric thing on ME soil.

"ZIonism" is a religiously inspired political ideology. If that is your argument then christians and muslims went to war for feudal system/monrachic politics too..

[dogukan]

Armenian conflict is not the worse thing EVER happened in ME....one example could be Mongols....much worse than that.
And to be objective Armenians killed half million Turks and I woN't say it's a genocide....if you're Armenian, of course this would break your heart and I don't expect you to say other wise....really though it woN't mater for me if it was a genocide or not. The thing which makes me crazy is that , even though it's not "totally" genocide and there are also half M casulties on our side people accuse us!

Jews are much less yes....but they've caused much less chaos throughout their history.
They just own a lot of things and people are always jeolus about them.

[Supreme]

Armenian conflict is not the worse thing EVER happened in ME....one example could be Mongols....much worse than that.
And to be objective Armenians killed half million Turks and I woN't say it's a genocide....if you're Armenian, of course this would break your heart and I don't expect you to say other wise....really though it woN't mater for me if it was a genocide or not. The thing which makes me crazy is that , even though it's not "totally" genocide and there are also half M casulties on our side people accuse us!

Jews are much less yes....but they've caused much less chaos throughout their history.
They just own a lot of things and people are always jeolus about them.

okay show us some proof that armenians killed half a million turks

[Fatih1989]

The Only Reason Jews Couldn't be violent is Because they didn't have own land or Army know they have an army who doesn't get killed

[dogukan]

okay show us some proof that armenians killed half a million turks

on the internet?Have you read what first Tashnak leader of Armenia said?
Tashnak gangs did kill a lot of Turks...it was more of an ethnic war

I doN't want to repeat things now....

[arri]

on the internet?Have you read what first Tashnak leader of Armenia said?
Tashnak gangs did kill a lot of Turks...it was more of an ethnic war

I doN't want to repeat things now....

You should be ashamed of yourself for making up fab.

Poor Armenians.

[dogukan]

I'm not ashamed....you should be ashmamed that you just read everytihng from one perspective.
One important thing about history is this.....whatever perspective exists you have to consider them all.

[Charpan]

Armenian conflict is not the worse thing EVER happened in ME....one example could be Mongols....much worse than that.
And to be objective Armenians killed half million Turks and I woN't say it's a genocide....if you're Armenian, of course this would break your heart and I don't expect you to say other wise....really though it woN't mater for me if it was a genocide or not. The thing which makes me crazy is that , even though it's not "totally" genocide and there are also half M casulties on our side people accuse us!

Jews are much less yes....but they've caused much less chaos throughout their history.
They just own a lot of things and people are always jeolus about them.

Mongols came from mongolia , armenians and then turkified anatolians were there for thousands of years. armenia changed hands several times between persians and romans/byzantines and maybe other powers but the armenian massacare was one of a kind event in ME. i dont think even arabs killed as many poeple during the expansion of caliphates.

And you seriously need to give some links for this hypothetical turkish massacare by armenians if u want anyone here to believe it.

[arri]

I'm not ashamed....you should be ashmamed that you just read everytihng from one perspective.
One important thing about history is this.....whatever perspective exists you have to consider them all.

The strong always make their own version of history. Truth however is that poor Armenians were never strong enough to challenge the ottoman. Therefore, your claim is pure BS.

[Supreme]

on the internet?Have you read what first Tashnak leader of Armenia said?
Tashnak gangs did kill a lot of Turks...it was more of an ethnic war

I doN't want to repeat things now....

Thats not proof...you dont even have the supposed quote huh?

BTW the genocide started in the 1890s with the Hamidian massacres...I bet that didnt happen either huh?:wub2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

[Supreme]

dogukan here are some quotes from the young turks

Enver Pasha

One of the triumpharate rulers publicly declared on 19 May 1916...
"The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation."


Talat Pasha

In a conversation with Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy in June 1915...
"Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention."

Mustafa "Ataturk" Kemal

Founder of the modern Turkish Republic in 1923 and revered throughout Turkey, in an interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner, talking about former Young Turks in his country...
“These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule.”

[dogukan]

There is a difference between genocide and what you're saying.....if we were thiking of a genocide I'm pretty sure it could be done easily in all those years......not to mention that there were still hundreds of thousands of Armenians living after forced migrations.
What has been done was cruel but not an act of genocide.....compared to what many countries have done in their black histories(tese countries are not accused of what's been done) this is no big deal at all.

Links as sources.....internet sources....you want?
this is a pretty biased web site but at least it's a collection of many different internet sources
pretty sure you woN't read though....yoU've grown with what your people tells you....why would you need to hear the other side
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/weems-No-genocide.htm
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/ermeni_sorunu_salonu/arsiv_belgeleriyle_ermeni_faaliyetleri/arsiv_belgeleriyle_ermeni_faaliyetleri.htm

I personally still wonder why Armenians are sooooo afriad to argue this in academic ways...our archives are open to everyone

[dogukan]

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/ermeni_sorunu_salonu/book.htm

^by a Russian officer

[mig21bis]

europeans love to talk about freedom of speech and democracy but in practice they fail bad in some issues:)


++++ Very much of true in here....and im european

First of all....when you can anyway claim that you have 100% freedom of speech ? Many issues are with limited space of what can or with what "tone of voice" can you express.....

Then....is democracy the ultimate answer to all ? I think not....i dont know any state in world where is also 100% democracy.....individual freedom is always limited by laws or regulations ( or groups / organisations )....

[kaiser_tr]

++++ Very much of true in here....and im european

First of all....when you can anyway claim that you have 100% freedom of speech ? Many issues are with limited space of what can or with what "tone of voice" can you express.....

Then....is democracy the ultimate answer to all ? I think not....i dont know any state in world where is also 100% democracy.....individual freedom is always limited by laws or regulations ( or groups / organisations )....

agreed:) do you know if you say that "armenian genocide didnt happen" in switzerland, police may arrest you? such a freedom environment aint it :)

[Supreme]

agreed:) do you know if you say that "armenian genocide didnt happen" in switzerland, police may arrest you? such a freedom environment aint it :)

and in turkey if you say the genocide happened you either go to prison or end up being killed

[dogukan]

and in turkey if you say the genocide happened you either go to prison or end up being killed

when did we claim we are as European as Swiss?And the French of course...they have the same law.

[Zakali]

and in turkey if you say the genocide happened you either go to prison or end up being killed

Who get killed? Can u mention some?

I hope u will not mention Hrant Dink. :roflmao3:

[Supreme]

when did we claim we are as European as Swiss?And the French of course...they have the same law.

the point im trying to make is kaiser has no right to critize the Europeans when his country is doing the same exact thing and even worst

i never said you claimed you were Europeans but you seem to be good at acting like one

[Fadly]

Maybe the Iraqis can claim genocide when millions of Iraqis were massacred by British mustard gas during the WW1.

[Akinci-Raider]

++++ Very much of true in here....and im european

First of all....when you can anyway claim that you have 100% freedom of speech ? Many issues are with limited space of what can or with what "tone of voice" can you express.....

Then....is democracy the ultimate answer to all ? I think not....i dont know any state in world where is also 100% democracy.....individual freedom is always limited by laws or regulations ( or groups / organisations )....
IM an US citizen(by birth)with Turkish ancestry...i will be flying to Istanbul through Viena....I will wear a shirt with followin quote:Armenian genocide is LIE......what do you think will happen in Airport,whould i get arrested by Austrian police or customs?????

[arri]

IM an US citizen(by birth)with Turkish ancestry...i will be flying to Istanbul through Viena....I will wear a shirt with followin quote:Armenian genocide is LIE......what do you think will happen in Airport,whould i get arrested by Austrian police or customs?????

Nope ... you won't

But change that to "Holocaust is a LIE" and you will.

[kaiser_tr]

and in turkey if you say the genocide happened you either go to prison or end up being killed

no you dont. if you insult turkish nation you may be prosecuted but there wont be anything if you claim genocide did occur.

[Supreme]

no you dont. if you insult turkish nation you may be prosecuted but there wont be anything if you claim genocide did occur.

Yes you do.

Orhan Pamuk

In 2006, after a period in which criminal charges had been pressed against him for his outspoken comments on the Armenian Genocide, Pamuk returned to the US to take up a position as a visiting professor at Columbia. Pamuk is currently a Fellow with Columbia's Committee on Global Thought and holds an appointment in Columbia's Middle East and Asian Languages and Cultures department and at its School of the Arts.

[Intrn'l_relations101]

This kaiser should be tha AKA spokseman, he barely admits to any civil rights violation by the state. The Turkish constitution is very strict on the genocide issue, EU has always expressed its concern on even "legal" constraints inherent in turkish constitutional framework in advancing liberal democracy.

[kaiser_tr]

Yes you do.

Orhan Pamuk

he insulted turkish nation. thats why he was prosecuted, not because he said armenian genocide did occur.

[kaiser_tr]

This kaiser should be tha AKA spokseman, he barely admits to any civil rights violation by the state. The Turkish constitution is very strict on the genocide issue, EU has always expressed its concern on even "legal" constraints inherent in turkish constitutional framework in advancing liberal democracy.

ohh my god why dont you guys criticise your homeland first. i guess yesterday magazine programs were banned in iran. any comment about it?

[Zakali]

ohh my god why dont you guys criticise your homeland first. i guess yesterday magazine programs were banned in iran. any comment about it?

Awesome answer. :wub2:

[Intrn'l_relations101]

ohh my god why dont you guys criticise your homeland first. i guess yesterday magazine programs were banned in iran. any comment about it?

OMG, when would you answer the question and stop bringing it back to Iran? hello..

[kaiser_tr]

first clean your own mess, then accuse others

[Intrn'l_relations101]

first clean your own mess, then accuse others

my mess? I am not even pure iranian.. hehe you better apply as a spokesman for AKA, I am not accountable for things in Iran therefore I have the moral ascendancy to question turkish or any countries human rights record.

[Intrn'l_relations101]

btw your empire messed up with my armenian ancestors.. hello

[kaiser_tr]

ever wondered why armenians? why not arabs?serbs?bulgarians?bosnians?georgians?kurds but armenians?

[Intrn'l_relations101]

oh tell me you have a special reason.. the most striking thing is their christian..

[Supreme]

oh tell me you have a special reason.. the most striking thing is their christian..

Dont forget they also killed Assyrians and Greeks...But im sure his gonna deny that so no point in mentioning it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek_Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Genocide

[Kuheylan]

Dont forget they also killed Assyrians and Greeks...But im sure his gonna deny that so no point in mentioning it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek_Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Genocide

we where bored of living side to side for more then 1000 years and we decided to kill them all while they where all innocent.

from where do you got the "Assyrian genocide", when did this **** happen? So far I do know they didnt rebel or formed any gangs during WW1???

But killing armenian and greek gangs is justifed and dont forget we wont recognise that ******** till our last breath.

We have a saying, "Kurt yaslaninca köpeklerin oyuncagi olurmus"

[Supreme]

we where bored of living side to side for more then 1000 years and we decided to kill them all while they where all innocent.

from where do you got the "Assyrian genocide", when did this **** happen? So far I do know they didnt rebel or formed any gangs during WW1???

But killing armenian and greek gangs is justifed and dont forget we wont recognise that ******** till our last breath.

We have a saying, "Kurt yaslaninca köpeklerin oyuncagi olurmus"


Typical turk...show everyone the uncivilized trash you are.

[Alienoz]

Typical turk...show everyone the uncivilized trash you are.

Not recognizing a so called genocide is making Turks uncivilized????

Then the Americans are most uncivilized nation. Poor American Indians.
French are worse than USA, they massacred whole Afrika, they still support weapons to the clans like Hutus, Tutti fruttis etc.. :)

Accept, Armenian. you suffered a defeat. Bad thing for a nation. Armenians feel this event as great pain under their minds. But you cannot force your mind to us. We sent Armenians to Lebanon. If you would have settled there, you would have another country of yours now. Many of them immigrated to France or USA.
Pity...

[Intrn'l_relations101]

Not recognizing a so called genocide is making Turks uncivilized????

Then the Americans are most uncivilized nation. Poor American Indians.
French are worse than USA, they massacred whole Afrika, they still support weapons to the clans like Hutus, Tutti fruttis etc.. :)

Accept, Armenian. you suffered a defeat. Bad thing for a nation. Armenians feel this event as great pain under their minds. But you cannot force your mind to us. We sent Armenians to Lebanon. If you would have settled there, you would have another country of yours now. Many of them immigrated to France or USA.
Pity...

civilization is about having a critical history, about re-evaluating the lies and attrocities in a county's past. Like how the EUropens stand apologetic and compensating for their previous crimes.

[dogukan]

oh tell me you have a special reason.. the most striking thing is their christian..

nope brother......because they wanted their free state and I can understand that. Let's merge these things with history.......where do we go...."tehhh FRENCH REVOLUTION"
(with the rise of nationalism) Armenian took advantage of war with Russians and Brits and decided to clean the area from Turks in order to build greater Armenia...the rest is because of that

[Zakali]

LMAO.

Look at what Armenians see as Greater Armenia ^^.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6880/granarmhm8.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Alienoz]

They have such maps in their parliament's walls. They tried 2 times: First time In 1914-1917 during WW1. We entered into Baku in 1918 and got rid of them.

Second time: 1920. They attacked from both Caucasian Front and French controlled south Anatolia. Guess what happened?

THERE WAS NO GENOCIDE. IT WAS WAR. EVEN WIKIPEDIA SAYS SO: