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Ordinator
11-12-2007, 08:09 AM
note: some of the links are old and no longer available, I have copied the article as it was.

Why forget the Holocaust?
by Paul Treanor

At least until 11 September 2001, the Holocaust was the primary historical reference used to justify military intervention, by the US and its allies. Indirectly, it is also used to legitimise social injustice in liberal-democratic nations, and to imply a liberal-democratic entitlement to a monopoly of power. It is used to legitimise global inequality, as if it entitled opponents of the Holocaust to prosperity, while others starve. Remembering the Holocaust is not a moral imperative: the memory serves no good purpose, only evil purposes. The Holocaust should be publicly forgotten, in the same sense as it is now publicly remembered.

- - - - -

The city of Amsterdam has an annual commemoration of Auschwitz in January (Soviet troops reached the camp in January 1945). Mayor Job Cohen spoke at the 2005 commemoration (http://www.auschwitz.nl/act/toespraken2005.html) of the 'dilemma of Auschwitz':

"How do you describe the undescribable, how do you make the unimaginable imaginable? Words wear thin, phrases become hollow. But the question is not isolated, it is a precondition for a more important question: how can we prevent repetition?"

Mayor Cohen often attends Holocaust commemorations, and his sincere abhorrence of the mass murder of the European Jews is not in doubt. But the same Mayor Cohen, three months earlier, approved a call to re-open Auschwitz. It was posted on the website volkomenkut.com - as one of the aggressive reactions to the murder of Theo van Gogh (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3974179.stm) in November 2004:

"Tijd voor een tweede Hitler en dit keer de moslims aan het gas en meer dan 6 miljoen!. Heropen Auschwitz, nu!
Time for another Hitler and this time gas the Muslims, and more than 6 million of them!. Reopen Auschwitz now!"

Many calls to arson, violence, ethnic cleansing, murder, and mass murder appeared on websites in the Netherlands, starting within hours of the murder, as the media speculated on an Islamist motive. Their continued circulation was approved at that time by Cohen. As mayor and head of the regional police, he can use public order powers against open incitement, but (like the Justice Ministry at national level), he has a policy not to intervene against racist internet incitement. Cohen is an example of a a new attitude among the Jewish communities of western Europe: seeing the right, and even neo-nazis, as allies and protectors against Islamic immigrants. Cohen can get away with protecting the racist right in this way, partly because of his status as 'national Holocaust commemorator'.
Cohen can not reopen Auschwitz, nor permit anyone else to do so: the camp is in Poland. His attitude is that of a calculating politician, rather than a frenzied neo-nazi. He tolerates incitement in order to create a climate, where Muslim immigrants feel they are not welcome in Amsterdam - and certainly the aggressive reactions after van Gogh's murder had that effect. The incident does show how the wheel has turned full circle. The memory of the Holocaust has become an instrument of the right, and in that way it becomes an instrument of its own possible repetition. If the Holocaust had been forgotten, Cohen would at least miss the political status, which Holocaust commemorations confer on him. There is nothing good about Holocaust memory, or knowledge of the Holocaust.

An earlier incident in the Netherlands, during the Kosovo war, illustrates the general ethics of 'knowledge of atrocities'. The director of a college in Arnhem refused to admit a Serbian student, saying that it was not right to have cultural contacts with Serbia in wartime, and that she had not condemned Serbian atrocities in her letter of application. Of course, Dutch students are not asked to apologise for the slave trade, or the colonial wars in Indonesia. The director had friends among Kosovo-Albanian refugees, and wanted to support them with a one-man boycott. At the time, with the European media filled with atrocity stories from Kosovo, any Serbian was an easy target.

Now suppose, that the European media had conspired to suppress news of atrocities against Albanians in Kosovo. Suppose the population in general knew nothing about them. The situation in the Netherlands would have been different in two ways. First, public opinion would have treated the director as a man with a bizarre anti-Serb grudge: he would have been dismissed, and the student admitted. On the other hand, no Netherlands forces would have been sent to Kosovo. In fact, no NATO country would have sent forces for a military operation in Kosovo, if the public had no knowledge of 'Serb' actions (in fact the actions of the armed forces of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia). As a result, the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo would have been completed, and thousands more would have died.

The knowledge of the atrocities substitutes one outcome for another. The Serbian student is admitted, or not. Kosovo-Albanians are killed, or not. Suppress the knowledge, and you get one outcome: release it, and you get another. It is not the atrocities themselves which led to military intervention in Kosovo: it was the image of those atrocities for western public opinion. Public knowledge is often a result of deliberate decisions - to release or spread certain information. That applies also to historical knowledge, to the social memory of the past. These decisions are therefore subject to moral assessment: the effects of the knowledge of atrocities should be taken into account.

In the first version of this piece, I wrote here that no liberal-democratic society would go to war, without atrocity stories to generate public support for the war. I assumed that the atrocities would be in other countries: the 11 September attacks showed that assumption was wrong. In the period preceding the first Gulf War, the US government found it necessary to invent a story, about Iraqi soldiers killing babies in incubators. For the war in Afghanistan, no such invention was necessary: the dramatic pictures of the WTC attack had a far greater effect on public opinion. If western countries continue to suffer such dramatic attacks, then foreign atrocity stories would indeed lose their political function. However, it is not probable that western countries will remain in a permanent state of siege: sooner or later, the atrocity story will return to prominence in foreign policy.

Now consider the issue from the point of view of those affected by (western) public knowledge of atrocities. Consider this fictional example:

An investigator for Amnesty International visits a poor country in Africa. He discovers that terrible atrocities are being committed in a military camp. Before leaving the country, he visits a village next to the camp. He tells the villagers that he will publicise the human rights abuses, in the global media. He reminds them, that a new US President has promised a "year-long rain of bombs" on all human rights abusers. He expects the villagers to thank him, for protecting their human rights. Instead, realising that they will die in a major attack on the base, they kill him and destroy the evidence he has collected.

Is this legitimate self-defence? I think it is. There is no right, to substitute the suffering of one for the suffering of another. The Amnesty investigator is playing God with the lives of the villagers. There is no absolute right to disseminate knowledge of atrocities, to the disadvantage of others. As in the example of Kosovo, one outcome is substituted for another: the death of the villagers for the continuation of human rights abuses. But in the fictional example, there is a tap to 'close off knowledge': the action of the villagers changes the outcome.

And in the fictional example, it was the Amnesty investigator who was wrong. In the presence of a hegemonic superpower, which answers atrocities with undirected massive military force, there is a moral duty to silence on atrocities.

There is no clear distinction here, between knowledge of present atrocities and past atrocities. Appeals to atrocities as justification often refer to both recent and historical examples. Three historical atrocities are repeatedly quoted: the Gulag, the Cambodian mass murders, and the Holocaust. Above all, Auschwitz is cited - although often considered too great an evil for the term 'atrocity'.

In how far is knowledge of atrocities a deliberate decision, in the the real political culture of western nations? The fact that governments publicly appeal to atrocity stories to justify their actions, draws increased attention to them. Aside from that, governments and military organisations do specifically publicise them: during the Kosovo war, the daily NATO press conferences were also the daily atrocity reports. The media also report independently on atrocities, and in turn this material is used by governments. The distinction between war reporting, propaganda and espionage - always unclear - almost disappeared during the Kosovo war.

The best evidence, that the public knowledge of atrocities is the result of deliberate action, is its selectivity. If it were simply a case of western media reporting human suffering, the public would know as much about the war in southern Sudan, as they knew about Kosovo. (If and when it suits the aims of western governments, then they will see that war nightly on their TV screens). Knowledge of past atrocities is equally selective. The western public does know about the Killing Fields of Cambodia: the use of the film title indicates why they know. Without the film, Cambodia would have retained the status it had in another title: a book on the US war on Cambodia is titled "Sideshow".

A more interesting comparison is with the Belgian exploitation of the Congo (in fact by a private enterprise owned by the Belgian Royal Family). Outside Belgium, the scale of this atrocity is unknown: possibly more people died from harsh treatment during the initial decades of colonisation, than died in the Holocaust. It is not 'remembered', because so few people set out to remember it. No movie, no memory. Public memory is as politicised, and as selective, as public knowledge of present atrocities. It is a result of decisions about what to remember, and in what form. Perhaps the most extraordinary illustration of the selectiveness of memory is the 'Armenian genocide', by Ottoman forces during the First World War. Europe forgot the Armenians, until after the Second World War a comment by Hitler on the fate of the Jews became famous. "Who remembers the Armenians?" asked Hitler. And because Hitler asked, and because of the historical status of both Hitler and the Holocaust, the Armenians are now remembered. (In turn that memorialisation became a political issue, with consequences for Turkey's accession to the European Union).

There is no comparison between public memory and individual memory, just as there is no comparison between public and private knowledge of atrocities. A person who has been in a concentration camp, can not make decisions about whether to remember it. If you see a mass killing, then you know about it, and you will never forget it. Yet societies, as the examples show, can be selective. Therefore, they can be deliberate. There is a decision to know, and a decision to remember.

There are still a few people alive, with personal memory of the Holocaust, just as there are people who saw atrocities in Kosovo. But no moral duty to public memory follows from that fact. If that public memory causes harm to innocent third parties, than it is better that they be silent - or even deny their own suffering. A good comparison is this:

A white woman in a small town in the United States in the 1920's is raped by a black man. She runs to a bar and tells her story: soon, the whole town knows. In reprisal, the local Ku Klux Klan seizes the rapist and his five brothers, and prepares to lynch them all. The woman then publicly retracts her story, and says she had lied to attract attention.

Is there anything morally wrong with this behaviour? I do not think so. It is admirable and self-sacrificing, it is a good action under the circumstances. The hypothetical example emphasises that memory of events such as the Holocaust has a social context - and social, political, and ethical consequences. Real-world decisions on memory can not be taken, as if in a vacuum. It is not an absolute wrong to forget the Holocaust: there can be ethical grounds to do so. Just as its memory has been preserved by deliberate decisions, to build Holocaust museums and memorials, these decisions can be reversed. It can be ethically legitimate to do this. Yet until now, all the decisions have been decisions to remember - partly because no-one presents the option of forgetting.

So what is done with the memory that has been decided upon? As an almost universal symbol of evil, the Holocaust is widely used for political purposes. A good comparison is given in Alexander Demandt's book Der Fall Roms. The Fall of Rome was a universal symbol of historical catastrophe in European culture, for 1500 years. Demandt's book traces its political use over the centuries: whatever people disapproved, they said it caused the Fall of Rome. This is also the usual social and political use of the Holocaust: accusation by historical example. What people do not like, or seek to destroy, they compare to the Holocaust. Evangelical Christians, for instance, see it as a warning against the occult, and against the loss of Christian values. Some post-modernists saw it as a revelation of the logic of modernity. Right-wing historians in Germany tried to blame it on the left, by claiming the Nazi regime imitated the Soviet Union.

The Holocaust has two more directly political uses. The first is the affirmation of liberal-democratic societies, by reference to the Holocaust. Often this is combined with a claim that a specific nation (Britain, Canada, the United States, Australia) helped to end it. The other political use is during international conflict: the accusation that opponents are "like the Nazis", that their actions are "like the Holocaust" - and "therefore" that retaliatory actions is justified. A long list of anti-western leaders have been compared to Adolf Hitler: in return, many of them said the same thing about western leaders. But only in the last 20 years, has the Holocaust acquired its present force in the politics of western liberal-democratic states. Reference to the Holocaust now signals imminent military action.

As reference to the Holocaust acquires more political force, those who define it acquire more political power. In the case of a Holocaust memorial, a Holocaust website or Holocaust museum, the questions to ask are:

• who defines 'Holocaust' here?
• who decides which actions are categorised as part of the Holocaust?
• what procedures do they use to define 'Holocaust'
• are their decisions taken on racial grounds, for instance by excluding Africans from 'Holocaust status'?
• is there any appeal against their decisions?
• how were they appointed or selected?
• can poor people join the group of decision-makers?
• is there any appeal against exclusion from the decision-making group?

As you would expect, there is an overlap between those who appeal to the Holocaust as justification, and those who define it. Many groups have in fact claimed 'Holocaust status' - in the sense that they see certain actions against their ancestors as morally equivalent to the Holocaust. Yet in the United States, despite a relatively well-organised lobby of African-Americans, the political elite refuses to recognise the slave trade as equivalent to the Holocaust. (The best the lobby could get was a 'separate-but-equal' museum in Washington). Defining the slave trade as Holocaust would create political obligations, which the US political elite is not ready to concede. It would create an implicit obligation to some form of financial compensation for slavery - a contentious and divisive issue. So 'The Holocaust' in the US is the Holocaust as the elite defines it - emphasising again, that Holocaust memory is a political decision. The people who define the memory, are usually the same people who use the memory: in support of their philosophy, their policy - or their war.
The appeal to the Holocaust plays an important role in 'democratic expansionism'. Supporters of democracy used to say, that democracies were good because, they did not engage in wars of conquest. Today, the consensus in western democracies is, that they should go to war - to bring their values to the rest of the world. A few countries (Switzerland, Britain, the United States) developed democracy themselves, but most democracies have democratic systems, because they were invaded or colonised by democratic states. The most recent 'democratisations' - Iraq above all - are among the most violent in history.

For at least a century, some people have proposed that democratic states should join forces, to conquer the rest of the world. They had little support at first, but by now this idea has ceased to be marginal. Even before the rise of the neoconservative policy advisors in Washington, a school of intervention ethics emerged in the western foreign-policy elites, and in English-language moral philosophy. The Holocaust was its historical reference point. Few people simply argue that "because of the Holocaust, the US should conquer the world". However, as the US and its allies increasingly intervene to create 'democratising protectorates', the historical reference is used case-by-case. The case of Kosovo is exemplary: the NATO/OSCE intervention had the explicit aim of remodelling society, as well as ending atrocities. (Kosovo will continue to be a semi-protectorate of the European Union under the latest proposals, the 2007 Ahtisaari plan). The intervention in Kosovo was explicitly and repeatedly legitimised by reference to the Holocaust.

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TO WAR!

Clinton compares Kosovo to Holocaust (http://www.nandotimes.com/Kosovo/story/general/0,2773,48314-77868-555929-0-herald,00.html): President Clinton compared Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic's ethnic cleansing campaign to the Holocaust and pledged that NATO will not relent...

Never Again (http://www.herbnstone.com/POWs/NeverAgain.htm): When President Clinton seized on the lessons of two world wars and the Holocaust to make his case for military intervention in Kosovo, he echoed an argument that many survivors have made themselves. Clinton invoked both the appeasement of Hitler and the Allies' failure to act sooner in World War II in explaining the rationale behind the NATO bombings...."We must come to the defense of defenseless victims," Nobel laureate and survivor Elie Wiesel said, expressing his full support for the NATO action.

Hitler's Legacy Lives on in Hate (http://www.ncc-vignette.com/opinions/opinions-one.html): Many people are strongly against U.S. intervention in nations such as Somalia, Rwanda, Kosovo, and other nations where "cleansings" take place. We cannot afford to turn a blind eye as this happens. We cannot afford to pretend it is not happening and that everything is okay. We must act against it. We must stand up for human life. Failing to do so disgraces the memories of all those who were killed in the Holocaust.

From Pharaoh to Milosevic: Evil and the Use of Force (http://shamash.org/reform/arzawuna/4499.html): One would expect that Jews would be relieved that Western powers, in using force to prevent further atrocities, are doing precisely what we Jews begged them to do during the Holocaust. At that time they refused to intervene until it was too late... Now, whether due to geopolitics, or perhaps because the West actually learned a lesson from the Holocaust, it is trying to prevent horrific atrocities while still possible.

On the Eve of War, NATO's Humanitarian Trigger (http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/pwork/0599/0503.htm): In the Middle Ages, the Crusaders launched their conquests from the Church pulpits. Today, NATO does so in the Holocaust Museum. War must be sacred.

Human voices of war amplified by Internet (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/html98/altknet_19990411.html): World War II gave us Anne Frank, the young Jewish girl forced into hiding as Nazi forces invaded the Netherlands. "In spite of everything,," she told her diary, "I still believe that people are really good at heart." The Kosovo conflict has given us Adona, the Albanian pen pal of a Berkeley, Calif., 16-year-old whose dispatches have been read to millions on National Public Radio.

Holocaust-mongering over Kosovo (http://www.informinc.co.uk/new/): In political terms, the way we have been bombarded with the language of genocide and concentration camps is even more significant. These words invoke modern moral absolutes. If there is genocide, the line is, then there can be no question of the need for intervention and retribution. The deployment of this language is designed to give an air of moral certainty to NATO's war against Serbia.

Like watching the Holocaust on TV: (http://www.rit.edu/~msawww/res/serbia.html) The surging flood of terrorized Kosovar women and children, herded by gloating Serb security forces, recalls another, more modern horror: pitiful columns of Jewish survivors being herded by sneering SS troops from the burning ruins of the Warsaw ghetto. Nazism has truly been triumphantly reborn in the Balkans.
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The 2003 invasion of Iraq was officially intended to remove weapons of mass destruction, but in reality it was inspired by an aggressive interventionist ideology. President Bush later invoked the Holocaust as a justification for its crusading aspect. The war in Iraq, according to President Bush, is inseparable from a wider crusade against the Holocaust. Speaking after a visit to the camp at Auschwitz-Birkenau, he said it was a reminder that "evil must be opposed". In case anyone is in doubt what that means, in the same speech he also threatened North Korea with a naval blockade. New wars are coming, to defeat more "new Hitlers".

In a less explicit way, liberal-democratic societies are partly founded on Holocaust memory. In theory, liberal social philosophy is 'non-foundational' - it does not start from some principle of what society ought to be. In practice, the liberal social model presents itself as an alternative to the horrors of war, poverty and dictatorship - the only alternative.

In Germany this foundationalism is at its most explicit. The German state, and the German social elite, constantly refer to Nazi Germany as legitimation of their own political existence. In turn, any deviance from official democratic orthodoxy is at once attacked, as an imminent return to the Nazi era. The great emphasis in Germany on the evil of the Nazi regime is often misunderstood as a sign of guilt: in fact it is more a self-congratulation of present Germany, for being so different. The curious way in which the German army honours von Stauffenberg (the man who almost killed Hitler) is typical. Armies do not normally honour officers, who try to assassinate the nation's leader in wartime. But in this way, the German army is retroactively on the winning side, the liberal-democratic side, the anti-Holocaust side.

The Holocaust plays an increasing role in this form of national legitimation. Public atonement by German politicians may have a completely different meaning for them, than for their foreign audience. In Germany, the Holocaust is being transformed from a symbol of national shame, to a symbol of national pride. As Daniel Goldhagen ( a supporter of militarily-imposed democracy) comments (http://www.goldhagen.com/mfr0.html):

"Some might think that it is a shame, perhaps even Germany's shame, that the Federal Republic has lived and continues to live looking over its shoulder in a manner unmatched by others and, in their view, unbefitting a country of its power and stature. They are wrong. It is precisely the opposite. The Federal Republic's political practice should be a source of satisfaction. Its mode of political activity, which has been a constituent feature of German democracy, has been an undeniable strength of the Federal Republic, that should be understood, applauded, encouraged, and furthered by Germans and non-Germans alike."

The late construction of a Holocaust memorial in Berlin (something never imposed on the city by the occupying allies), should be seen in this light. And if the Holocaust can be used in this way in Germany, how much easier to do that, in countries whose troops liberated concentration camps. That is one reason why there is a large National Holocaust Museum in Washington. That is one explanation for the status of Anne Frank, as national symbol of the Netherlands. There is an implicit foundational mythology for liberal societies - an 'Auschwitz myth' in an accurate sense of the word. It is not in fact their historical foundation - in reality liberalism and liberal-democracy existed before Auschwitz - and it is not transparent or explicit. This vague mythology implies that the Holocaust is the negation of liberal society, and that liberal society is consequently the negation of the Holocaust, the remedy for it - the appropriate historical 'fire extinguisher'. It suggests that the Holocaust was caused by the lack of liberalism - by failure to meet something like the Freedom House checklist of liberal-democratic rights. It also implies that liberal democracy ended the Holocaust. That last claim is 'mythological' in the sense of false: most concentration camps, including Auschwitz itself, were in eastern Europe, and were liberated by Soviet troops.
The ethics of this use of memory are simple: it is wrong to legitimise a society which is wrong. And there are many things wrong with the nation state, and with liberal-democratic societies in general. One relevant characteristic in this context, is that most liberal-democratic theorists believe in the inherent inequality of the talented and the untalented. Liberal-democratic societies are characterised by social inequality generated by competition. It is apparently the inevitable outcome of liberal process, and liberals believe that process justifies outcome. If there were no Holocaust to remember, indeed if all historical atrocities were forgotten without trace, liberal-democratic societies would not instantly collapse. But the self-congratulatory attitude that Holocaust memory promotes - "our society is the best in history" - is certainly an obstacle to innovation and justice in that society.

Defenders of the liberal 'market democracies' do not state explicitly, that the Holocaust legitimises the inequalities of the free market (or the market itself). But this is ultimately their line of argument...

• "a new Holocaust must be prevented: that is the ultimate moral duty"
• "therefore the world must be so arranged, so as to minimise the possibility of a new Holocaust"
• "a world of liberal-democratic free-market nation states, is the arrangement which minimises the possibility of a future Holocaust"
• "therefore there is a moral duty to accept a world of liberal-democratic free-market nation states, regardless of any injustice it may bring"

And certainly, the elite, in western societies, does not hesitate to accuse the opposition of being 'like the Nazis'. As with the Holocaust comparisons in international crises, this does have effects. It protects the social order against radical change. (It does not work the other way around: as millions of demonstrators have discovered, shouting "Fascists!" at the police does not make them disappear).
So it is no surprise, that those who want to remember the Holocaust are the elite, the privileged, the holders of power. Institutions of Holocaust memory are 'white' and 'middle-class'. Apart from the survivors of the Holocaust itself, the memorialists are predominantly the members of the ethnic majority in each nation, people with an income and educational level well above average. The poorest people in the world devote no energy to memorialising the Holocaust.

Is any good done by Holocaust memory? It clearly has effects, and some people value these effects. One response to my views was that Holocaust memory at least brought justice for the surviving victims, and that it gave people a capacity to judge the present in terms of the past and an "awareness of the magnitude of modern human cruelty". But that is the problem: much modern human cruelty is legitimised by historical reference to the Holocaust. The ethics of Holocaust memory repeatedly refer to utilitarian arguments: about sacrificing one to save many.

In the Kosovo example, military intervention - driven by public knowledge of atrocities - saved some people and killed others. The utilitarian tradition in ethics has a simple answer in such cases: calculate the suffering and benefit, and choose the option with net benefit ('utility'). The rigid utilitarian would say: "sacrifice the lives of hundreds of Serb civilians, if that is necessary to end mass killings of thousands in Kosovo". That was indeed the ethical position taken by the NATO: although its generals are not trained as moral philosophers, the organisation has a consistently utilitarian ethic. That is not surprising, because utilitarianism is widely accepted in western culture.

Those who refer to the Holocaust as legitimation for military action, are almost inevitably utilitarian. They argue that the victims of the Holocaust should have been rescued in 1943 or 1944, and they feel that the past failure should be compensated in the present. However at that time no rescue would have been possible, other than large-scale war against Germany. Even given knowledge of the plans to exterminate European Jews, and even given a decision by the Soviet Union and the western allies to rescue them, the only realistic option was what in fact happened: opposing land forces fight their way into Germany after massive strategic bombardment. Any such war would have killed millions of Germans - which the utilitarian ethic would find acceptable. Some people retrospectively take a utilitarian position about Holocaust victims themselves. They argue that the Allies should have bombed Auschwitz, inevitably killing many prisoners, in order to interrupt the systematic extermination.

This illustrates the great evil of utilitarian ethics. The utilitarians start by opposing the Holocaust, but soon they are planning to kill prisoners in Auschwitz. Utilitarians abandon moral norms in favour of a calculation - an arbitrary form of calculation, since there are other options. The logic of utilitarianism implies that the Holocaust is not evil in itself, but subject to calculation, And so ultimately, utilitarian logic will accept the Holocaust, if that prevents 'greater harm'.

Suppose a new Hitler comes to hold absolute power on earth. He arrests 12 million Jews and divides them into two groups of 6 million. He plans to exterminate.
However, if you will carry out the extermination of one group, he will release the other. There is no alternative decision. Would you implement that new Holocaust.

If you are a utilitarian, you would. If you think that it is morally legitimate, to kill 500 innocent Serbs to save 5000 innocent Albanians, then probably you would. Obviously, 500 dead is less than 5000 dead, and obviously 6 million dead is less than 12 million dead. In the real world, Holocaust memory is certainly quoted in support of killing - no doubt of that. President Clinton explicitly quoted it in support of the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. If there was no Holocaust memory, he could not have referred to it. The claim that is good to remember the Holocaust, includes the implicit qualification in spite of its use to justify force - and that is a utilitarian approach

The truth is, that the memory of the Holocaust does not encourage people to do absolute and unconditional good. It usually serves to justify harm to others. I have never seen any postwar example, where the Holocaust inspired a person to act in an unquestionably good way. I see many examples, where people do things they know are controversial - and quote the Holocaust in defence of their actions. The more extreme the actions, the more likely they are to appeal to the Holocaust.

Remembering the Holocaust is like placing a live hand grenade in a room full of small children. It is no good to them in any way, and sooner or later they will play with it, and kill or injure themselves. Only an evil person would do such a thing. Those who place Holocaust memory on earth are the historians, the archivists, the museum directors, the writers, the designers of Holocaust memorials, the creators of memory websites. Politicians and philosophers demand and emphasise Holocaust memory. They bear a heavy responsibility, and it is increasing. A hypothetical United States conquest of Africa, to "implement human rights and stop genocide", would probably kill over ten million people. (That guess is based on the civilian casualties in Iraq and Vietnam). The longer the Holocaust is remembered, the more people will suffer, the more people will die, the more injustice will be done - all with reference to that memory. The right thing to do is to terminate the memory.

skhara
11-12-2007, 08:49 AM
I like this article. Get yourself a collection of disgusting, shameless, lying Jews -- have them scream "Oy vey the holocaust" -- and you got yourself a war. Here is a little tidbit -- Madeline Allbright, the jewess instrumental in the attacks against Serbs -- was also rescued by Serbs during the second World War.

Ahmadinejad
11-12-2007, 08:18 PM
I like this article. Get yourself a collection of disgusting, shameless, lying Jews -- have them scream "Oy vey the holocaust" -- and you got yourself a war. Here is a little tidbit -- Madeline Allbright, the jewess instrumental in the attacks against Serbs -- was also rescued by Serbs during the second World War.

really, did they actually rescue her?

skhara
11-12-2007, 09:16 PM
really, did they actually rescue her?

http://www.compuserb.com/madliar.htm

Yep - literally. In fact, in the NATO bombing campaign, Serbian villagers wrote a message on an unexploded bomb aimed directly at her. It was to the effect of acknowledgment of Allbright's gratitude for their hospitality.

Ahmadinejad
11-12-2007, 09:59 PM
good info, thanks for the link Skhara, it is truly a pity then.

double_o
11-17-2007, 09:40 AM
At least until 11 September 2001, the Holocaust was the primary historical reference used to justify military intervention, by the US and its allies.
Because Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Granada, the 1991 Gulf War, Somalia, Yugoslavia and other were all because of the holocaust.:roflmao3:


Indirectly, it is also used to legitimise social injustice in liberal-democratic nations, and to imply a liberal-democratic entitlement to a monopoly of power. It is used to legitimise global inequality, as if it entitled opponents of the Holocaust to prosperity, while others starve.
What is he talking about?


Remembering the Holocaust is not a moral imperative: the memory serves no good purpose, only evil purposes. The Holocaust should be publicly forgotten, in the same sense as it is now publicly remembered.
This is so wrong.


Many calls to arson, violence, ethnic cleansing, murder, and mass murder appeared on websites in the Netherlands, starting within hours of the murder, as the media speculated on an Islamist motive. Their continued circulation was approved at that time by Cohen. As mayor and head of the regional police, he can use public order powers against open incitement, but (like the Justice Ministry at national level), he has a policy not to intervene against racist internet incitement. Cohen is an example of a a new attitude among the Jewish communities of western Europe: seeing the right, and even neo-nazis, as allies and protectors against Islamic immigrants. Cohen can get away with protecting the racist right in this way, partly because of his status as 'national Holocaust commemorator'.
So Cohen 'approval' was that he didn't use the police to stop people from posting comments on the internet!
WTF, this is so ridiculous. Even if we ignore the legal and technical problems, the writer kindly tell us that this is not Cohen's personal policy, but a national policy by the ministry of justice.
Based on those stupid allegations, Cohen and other Jewish communities are blamed of cooperating with neo-nazis.



Remembering the Holocaust is like placing a live hand grenade in a room full of small children. It is no good to them in any way, and sooner or later they will play with it, and kill or injure themselves. Only an evil person would do such a thing. Those who place Holocaust memory on earth are the historians, the archivists, the museum directors, the writers, the designers of Holocaust memorials, the creators of memory websites. Politicians and philosophers demand and emphasise Holocaust memory. They bear a heavy responsibility, and it is increasing. A hypothetical United States conquest of Africa, to "implement human rights and stop genocide", would probably kill over ten million people. (That guess is based on the civilian casualties in Iraq and Vietnam). The longer the Holocaust is remembered, the more people will suffer, the more people will die, the more injustice will be done - all with reference to that memory. The right thing to do is to terminate the memory.
After reading this long incoherent full of logical fallacies article I can't understand how the writer reached this stupid conclusion.

Ordinator
11-18-2007, 02:17 AM
Because Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Granada, the 1991 Gulf War, Somalia, Yugoslavia and other were all because of the holocaust.

Are you saying that Korea, Vietnam, Somalia and others were all causing genocide in their own lands so that US had to interviene and therfore any reffrence to halucast used with regards to these interventions were justified?

What is he talking about?

You have stuck in the first opening paragraph, usuaully authors of articles open up their writings by an abstract paragraph and then further in the article they explain and attend to the subject.

This is so wrong.

Ok! But it seems you have not commented on the rest of the article, just saying something is wrong doesn’t help others to understand why.

After reading this long incoherent full of logical fallacies article I can't understand how the writer reached this stupid conclusion.

You have quoted 3 times the first paragraph, and another time a little further ahead in the very beginning of the article and then you have quoted the last paragraph.
Now I don’t want to suggest that you “may” have not read the article fully as you claim, but surely the bulk of this article is in the middle where you have not touched, that is where the heavy burdon of the first and last statements are carried and they are illucified.
If the first paragraph is worthy of 3 quotes and comments, don’t you think the author may have some more disturbing things for you inside his text? You have scanned through the writing and have shown allergy only to the begining and ending as if you have not “felt” anything in between!

Vaya Con Dios

double_o
11-18-2007, 04:13 AM
Are you saying that Korea, Vietnam, Somalia and others were all causing genocide in their own lands so that US had to interviene and therfore any reffrence to halucast used with regards to these interventions were justified?

No, I was being sarcastic. I meant none of them were justified by the holocaust. In fact they had nothing with the holocaust, which is contrary to what the author wrote.


You have stuck in the first opening paragraph, usuaully authors of articles open up their writings by an abstract paragraph and then further in the article they explain and attend to the subject.

But not in this article.



If the first paragraph is worthy of 3 quotes and comments, don’t you think the author may have some more disturbing things for you inside his text?

Oh, he has many, so many in fact that I decided not to comment on all of them because I simply didn't had time to do so (I have other things to do in real life).


You have scanned through the writing and have shown allergy only to the begining and ending as if you have not “felt” anything in between!

I felt things, but those things had nothing to do with the ending or the beginning. My bottom line is that the middle of the article doesn't explain the author's declaration at the beginning of the article nor it's conclusion at the end.

Croatian
12-07-2007, 08:56 PM
People are getting sick about Holocaust propaganda. Every day on TV, newspapers or internet - Holocaust, holocaust and more holocaust.

What about other victims?
28 million Russians died during WW2.
15 million Chinese, also.
6 million Germans.
5 million Polish.
etc.

Jewish victims are more valuable then other?!

attitude
12-07-2007, 09:44 PM
stop posting ----------------------before the title of each thread you start Ordinator

Shamshir of Light
12-07-2007, 10:06 PM
Nobody denies that the halocoust never happened some of my moms family died in the gas chambers all we are saying is why should the Palestinians suffer for what happened
if anything the Germans can give some of their land to the Jewish people since they did the attrocitie and leave the jewish people can leave the Palestinians in peace in their homeland

Kalfus
12-07-2007, 10:18 PM
Exactly, We can't deny the Holocaust, at the same time, the Palestinians shouldn't be massacred because they live in Israel/Palestine two.

And for those who complain: "But, they shoot at us, throw rocks, and blow themselves up to kills us"

What would you do if you're oppressed, your home destroyed, and your children sent to military prison for "Justice?" Would you let them continue, or will you fight back?

Sokuy30
12-07-2007, 11:04 PM
Exactly, We can't deny the Holocaust, at the same time, the Palestinians shouldn't be massacred because they live in Israel/Palestine two.

And for those who complain: "But, they shoot at us, throw rocks, and blow themselves up to kills us"

What would you do if you're oppressed, your home destroyed, and your children sent to military prison for "Justice?" Would you let them continue, or will you fight back?
Even with sold out leaders like Arafat (mole) Palestinians are fighting! Israel is Doomed.
1948,,,,2007

IR.IRAN
12-08-2007, 09:44 PM
Even with sold out leaders like Arafat (mole) Palestinians are fighting! Israel is Doomed.
1948,,,,2007

palestinians are currently facing a basterd leader whose selling them out big time for his own financial benefit ( mahmoud abbas )

lBlackWaterl
12-09-2007, 12:34 AM
People are getting sick about Holocaust propaganda. Every day on TV, newspapers or internet - Holocaust, holocaust and more holocaust.

What about other victims?
28 million Russians died during WW2.
15 million Chinese, also.
6 million Germans.
5 million Polish.
etc.

Jewish victims are more valuable then other?!

take this incident,
there is a war between two sides,. On both sides, civilians caught up in that war are killed in large numbers as a result of the fighting. lets put it at 1000

and here we have peace, but suddenly, an army comes and mercilessly wipes out 500 defenceless human beeings who offer no resistence because they "hate" them.

Which one touches your heart more.
1000 people dying in a killing field or 500 people beeing killed for no justifyable reason.

Another scenario would be gun crime in the states., thousands of people die from gun crime related incidents in a year but an incident like the virginia tech massacre with 33 deaths is recieved with alot of shock and catches more attention why? go figure

Another good example is ww2.
the US firebombed tokyo killing anywhere between 200thousand to 300thousand.
That wasent recieved with as much shock as the dropping of the atomic bombs which caused way less casualties.
What im tryna get at is that, that just how society works. murder has just as much to do with how someone is killed as to why someone is killed.

vampares
12-16-2007, 02:22 PM
Who recognizes it in the first place?

Affronted with a hypothetical:
"poor innocent children outcast from society, maybe a little f'd up but not too bad"
Round them up and brutalize them, or no?

This is referred to as a "rhetorical question". What the state of politics in diverse communities demands is your undivided prejudice.

Who could be so cruel? We are told "Nazi's" are so cruel.

----

The "victims", the refugees, the ethnic pollution, the "Jews" are not recognized. They are not photographed or in the news. Of the few holocaust photographs, several are focused on spies -- not Jews.

In an HIV/AIDS video interview, the host introduces himself and says he is HIV positive. He then introduces his guest and dubiously does not inform the viewer of her HIV/AIDS status or even why she is in the video.

We are so naive. We place blame upon our own communities for the individuals who are criminal or mentally ill. We say "genetic defect is common to all humans". We failed to make a connection. This is not us or it is not them. What does "Jew" do?

Eventually, if there is a need for holocaust or if genocide has occurred we will find out about it. Hell is for children. The mental desensitization, the informational chaos, this damage has yet to be done.

mango994
12-16-2007, 06:11 PM
Palestinians aren't paying for the holocaust.
The Holocaust is not the main reason.

The jews deserved their own state since the moment they were exiled, and Israel is their land as much as it is the Palestinians'.

Croatian
12-16-2007, 06:51 PM
Palestinians aren't paying for the holocaust.
The Holocaust is not the main reason.

The jews deserved their own state since the moment they were exiled, and Israel is their land as much as it is the Palestinians'.

So Jews have right to own state, but Palestinians don't?

double_o
12-17-2007, 10:21 AM
What about other victims?
28 million Russians died during WW2.
15 million Chinese, also.
6 million Germans.
5 million Polish.
etc.


You are mixing here two different things:
1. The victims of the fighting in ww2.
2. The victims of the holocaust - the systematical mass murder of jews, gypsies, ***s and others by the racist Nazi regime.

Croatian
12-17-2007, 09:12 PM
You are mixing here two different things:
1. The victims of the fighting in ww2.
2. The victims of the holocaust - the systematical mass murder of jews, gypsies, ***s and others by the racist Nazi regime.

Operation Barbarossa wasn't systematical mass murder???!!!

Russians died on far worst way then Jews, so don't be hypocrite and face the truth.

Croatian
12-17-2007, 09:18 PM
Answer this question:

Do you consider ALL Jewish losses in ww2 as "victims of systematical mass murder"?

Sokuy30
12-17-2007, 09:27 PM
Palestinians aren't paying for the holocaust.
Only thing missing is Gas Chambers!

The Holocaust is not the main reason.
It seems like it is, Picking on defenseless people of Palestine!




The jews deserved their own state since the moment they were exiled, and Israel is their land as much as it is the Palestinians'.
In expense of moving out Palestinians was not right. this is one of your best post, You said Palestinians has the same right.

Kiaar
12-18-2007, 01:44 AM
Operation Barbarossa wasn't systematical mass murder???!!!

Russians died on far worst way then Jews, so don't be hypocrite and face the truth.

The Russians at lead had a chance to fight back, and they did. The Jews/Gypsies/Handicapped/Blacks/etc. killed were mostly just civilians rounded up with their families from their homes.

Not to say that the Russians that died were "less important" or any of that crap you're sure to throw, but they weren't systematically slaughtered either and had a chance to fight back.

The Chinese were a similar thing to the holocaust in a sense. They weren't rounded up, but many were killed and raped and such by Japanese soldiers. The main reason you don't hear about this and the Russians as much is because it is simply less "there" for most of Europe and North America. The holocaust was seen much more closely by Allied soldiers and European citizens than the deaths in Russia were. Hence why NA and Euro countries take it more seriously and learn about it more than the other incidents, in the same way that I'm sure the Russians and Chinese place more importance on their own losses.

It may not be right, but it's how we work. If someone is shot in front of your house you care a lot more than if ten people are shot 100 miles away.

Vladimir80
12-18-2007, 02:07 AM
The Russians at lead had a chance to fight back, and they did. The Jews/Gypsies/Handicapped/Blacks/etc. killed were mostly just civilians rounded up with their families from their homes.

Like the Germans didn't round up Soviet citizens and commit mass murder? The Jews had just as much chance to fight as we did.

Kiaar
12-18-2007, 02:57 AM
Like the Germans didn't round up Soviet citizens and commit mass murder? The Jews had just as much chance to fight as we did.

Nice job ignoring the entire second half of my post.

And last I heard, there was no Jewish/Gypsy/Other Minority army to help defend against the nazi's.

Though I recommend paying attention to what else I wrote, since it helps to explain a bit why Europeans and NA's tend to see the holocaust more than the other massacres of WWII.

KMS_Tripitz
12-18-2007, 03:35 AM
Like the Germans didn't round up Soviet citizens and commit mass murder? The Jews had just as much chance to fight as we did.

The 12 million strong Red army at least gave them a fighting chance. I didnt see any Jewish armies defending them?

Vladimir80
12-18-2007, 03:49 AM
The 12 million strong Red army at least gave them a fighting chance. I didnt see any Jewish armies defending them?

Could the Jews not have put up a resistance? The French did...

Behrooz Boonabi
12-18-2007, 04:11 AM
It is insensitive to say whether the Jews could of had a fight or not. It isn't a good excuse for israel copying Nazi's but the Jews really did suffer Genocide, and so did others. Many peoples suffered, Russians suffered the worse when a supprise war was imposed on them but the Russians still managed to defeat the Nazi's due to their will, industry and strong population. The Nazi's could not be defeated without the Russian's, they played the largest part. British was next largest, the rest was minor.

double_o
12-18-2007, 06:19 AM
Operation Barbarossa wasn't systematical mass murder???!!!

Russians died on far worst way then Jews, so don't be hypocrite and face the truth.
Operation Barbrossa was a military operation, don't compare soldiers dieing in the battlefield to a genocide. I know that more Russians were killed than jews, nobody ever said something else.

Do you consider ALL Jewish losses in ww2 as "victims of systematical mass murder"?
No, the numbers of holocaust victims doesn't include Jewish soldiers or Jews that were killed in not-holocaust related events. (for example Jews civilians who were by aerial bombing during the battle of Britain.)

Croatian
12-19-2007, 04:15 AM
Only thing missing is Gas Chambers!

Actually, the gas chambers are one of the most human way for execution, that's why USA uses it for capital punishment.
(don't get me wrong, I don't justify it!)

Vladimir80
12-19-2007, 04:20 AM
Operation Barbrossa was a military operation, don't compare soldiers dieing in the battlefield to a genocide. I know that more Russians were killed than jews, nobody ever said something else.

You seem to make it sound like most Soviets died in battle. Their were millions of Soviet citizens genocided by the Germans, entire towns were systematically wiped off the face of the earth.

Croatian
12-19-2007, 04:24 AM
The Russians at lead had a chance to fight back, and they did.

Jews also had chance to fight back, and they also did in Warsaw ghetto, but they lost.
So why do you consider them as "victims of holocaust"?


The Jews/Gypsies/Handicapped/Blacks/etc. killed were mostly just civilians rounded up with their families from their homes.

Blacks?!

:roflmao3:

How many blacks lived in Europe you moron?!

Not to say that the Russians that died were "less important" or any of that crap you're sure to throw, but they weren't systematically slaughtered either and had a chance to fight back.

So 28 million Russians died in friendly fire, not in systematically slaughter?
Most of them died of hunger and cold, and it's all because of war - or German attack.


It may not be right, but it's how we work. If someone is shot in front of your house you care a lot more than if ten people are shot 100 miles away.

That's true.

Croatian
12-19-2007, 04:30 AM
You seem to make it sound like most Soviets died in battle. Their were millions of Soviet citizens genocided by the Germans, entire towns were systematically wiped off the face of the earth.

Absolutely true, I know because even Croatian soldiers participated in Axis attack on Russia. From their stories, many Russians were non-armed but they still participated in human wave attack on German lines.

double_o
12-19-2007, 06:07 AM
You seem to make it sound like most Soviets died in battle. Their were millions of Soviet citizens genocided by the Germans, entire towns were systematically wiped off the face of the earth.
Those millions are part of the holocaust victims. The holocaust wasn't a "Jews only thing". Millions of people from many countries, religions and descents were slaughtered by the Nazis. I Never said that only Jews were murdered.

Vladimir80
12-19-2007, 06:18 AM
Those millions are part of the holocaust victims. The holocaust wasn't a "Jews only thing". Millions of people from many countries, religions and descents were slaughtered by the Nazis. I Never said that only Jews were murdered.

That's not how it is refered to... it is refered as a Jewish "thing." They were just one peoples in the way, they didn't do any more dying or suffering than Soviets did.

mustavaris
12-19-2007, 09:10 AM
Could the Jews not have put up a resistance? The French did...

Too didivided, too marginalized to have an effect.

double_o
12-19-2007, 09:42 AM
That's not how it is refered to... it is refered as a Jewish "thing." They were just one peoples in the way, they didn't do any more dying or suffering than Soviets did.
After further research I found out that I was mistaken and that the term "The Holocaust" refer only the murder of Jews by Nazis. I don't recall that anyone said that Jews died in larger numbers or suffered more (how can you measure suffering?) than other people.

Suhail
12-20-2007, 02:59 PM
You want the holocaust to be remembered !!! THEN DONT REPEAT IT !!!

its sad to see the people who suffered from the holocausts a.k.a THE JEWS are doing the same sorta thing themselves today towards palestinians etc!!!

if there gonna continue its blatent that they havent learnt a lesson and that the holocaust should just be forgotten !

:(

mango994
12-20-2007, 04:41 PM
1. Israel recognizes the Palestinian Autonomy since 1993, and recognized the need in the establishment of a pal state in countless of documents and agreements.

2. You cannot compare between the mass murder of the jews and Barbarossa.
The Russians were defended by a state, with an army, with economy, with independence.
Germany attacked Russia for the territories, for power.
The Jews were killed for being jews.
The jews had no state, no kind of autonomy, and what resistance? They had no means, and even the few who wanted to resist, were denied by the polish partisans, who even handed them over to the Germans.

And the jews, who suffered from countless of exiles, pogroms and denial all over the world, got to the very basic conclusion that a state must be made.
And why Israel, and not Alaska? Because they wanna kill Palestinians of course.
Seriously, why do you think that such a community managed to survive for 2,000 years, if not to one thing that united them all?
You must be saying, it's the Bible of course. The jewish traditions.
Above that.
It's Jerusalem. The land of Israel was the jews' dream, and for that they were hated. For their double loyalty, for they didn't even care about the countries they lived in.

Stop being innocent. Do you think so many millions of people would rise one day, because they didn't like what was done to them, and they wanted to bring out their anger on someone else?
The state of Israel is the jewish dream since the dawn of times, and we deserve living here as much as the Palestinians, if not even more.

Besides, who do you explain that before the jewish settlements began to bloom in the early 20th, Palestine's residents rebelled against the British, because they weren't concluded in the fresh new Syrian state?

arri
12-20-2007, 04:49 PM
1. Israel recognizes the Palestinian Autonomy since 1993, and recognized the need in the establishment of a pal state in countless of documents and agreements.

What is the value of recognition when you are still expanding and building settlements?

2. You cannot compare between the mass murder of the jews and Barbarossa.
The Russians were defended by a state, with an army, with economy, with independence.
Germany attacked Russia for the territories, for power.
The Jews were killed for being jews.
The jews had no state, no kind of autonomy, and what resistance? They had no means, and even the few who wanted to resist, were denied by the polish partisans, who even handed them over to the Germans.

And the jews, who suffered from countless of exiles, pogroms and denial all over the world, got to the very basic conclusion that a state must be made.
And why Israel, and not Alaska? Because they wanna kill Palestinians of course.
Seriously, why do you think that such a community managed to survive for 2,000 years, if not to one thing that united them all?
You must be saying, it's the Bible of course. The jewish traditions.
Above that.
It's Jerusalem. The land of Israel was the jews' dream, and for that they were hated. For their double loyalty, for they didn't even care about the countries they lived in.

Stop being innocent. Do you think so many millions of people would rise one day, because they didn't like what was done to them, and they wanted to bring out their anger on someone else?
The state of Israel is the jewish dream since the dawn of times, and we deserve living here as much as the Palestinians, if not even more.

Besides, who do you explain that before the jewish settlements began to bloom in the early 20th, Palestine's residents rebelled against the British, because they weren't concluded in the fresh new Syrian state?

Your dream shouldn't come at the expensse of people that had nothing to do with throcities commited in Europe. It's not right.

mango994
12-20-2007, 04:58 PM
1. Settlements are expanding same as every city in the world needs to expand, for the population is always expanding.

2. Did you even bother to read? I just explained that this is not connected to the Holocaust, it was just a push. A jewish state would've risen with or without the Holocaust, for the settling process started 60 years before the Holocaust, in 1880.

arri
12-20-2007, 05:04 PM
1. Settlements are expanding same as every city in the world needs to expand, for the population is always expanding.

Expanding in occupied territories by buldozing houses with people in them.

Never mind. Everytime I start discussing right and wrong with Israeli citizens on these forums, I start wishing I was at the dentist getting a root canal after a few posts.

2. Did you even bother to read? I just explained that this is not connected to the Holocaust, it was just a push. A jewish state would've risen with or without the Holocaust, for the settling process started 60 years before the Holocaust, in 1880.

Without the support of US and Europe, Israel wouldn't have survived, and you are using their shame to secure support. That's how they are related.

Charpan
12-25-2007, 10:24 PM
Like the Germans didn't round up Soviet citizens and commit mass murder? The Jews had just as much chance to fight as we did.

First of all , "Soviet citizens" , lol

second , the jews had the chance to leave, and they didnt....

mango994
12-27-2007, 01:38 PM
Expanding in occupied territories by buldozing houses with people in them.

Never mind. Everytime I start discussing right and wrong with Israeli citizens on these forums, I start wishing I was at the dentist getting a root canal after a few posts.



Without the support of US and Europe, Israel wouldn't have survived, and you are using their shame to secure support. That's how they are related.

omfg... in what kind of bubble are you living?
You actually think that we go everyday to their cities with bulldozers, destroy a few homes and start building our own ones?

First off, bulldozers are a punishment to deter terrorists.
Second, we don't build OVER their lands, the Israeli settlements have their own territory. The West Bank is not exactly the rich civilization of the world. It's more desolate than you think.

mustavaris
12-27-2007, 01:41 PM
The Jews had just as much chance to fight as we did.

Did they have a country which Nazis invaded?

Was there a Jewish military and war industry?

No, the Jews were minorities everywhere, divided and often marginalized and in many places betrayed by their own countrymen.

mango994
12-27-2007, 01:50 PM
First of all , "Soviet citizens" , lol

second , the jews had the chance to leave, and they didnt....

Leave?
So we Israelis can now go and tell the Palestinians to leave, and if they refuse we put them in gas chambers.
In the aftermath, we can say that they had to option to leave.

Hmmm... sound fair.

Charpan
12-27-2007, 01:54 PM
Did they have a country which Nazis invaded?

Was there a Jewish military and war industry?

No, the Jews were minorities everywhere, divided and often marginalized and in many places betrayed by their own countrymen.

not really , jews werent marginalized by any measure in the early 20th century europe.

and in some lower countries like netherlands or denmark i guess they were fled by the government before german occupation.

Charpan
12-27-2007, 01:55 PM
Leave?
So we Israelis can now go and tell the Palestinians to leave, and if they refuse we put them in gas chambers.
In the aftermath, we can say that they had to option to leave.

Hmmm... sound fair.

u can give it a shot . personally i dont care :D

skhara
12-27-2007, 01:56 PM
Leave?
So we Israelis can now go and tell the Palestinians to leave, and if they refuse we put them in gas chambers.
In the aftermath, we can say that they had to option to leave.

Hmmm... sound fair.

Jews were never put into "gas chambers". But your general point is exactly how it is. You go around "strongly encouraging" the Palestinians to leave, and if they don't -- they get shot, starved, abused, humiliated, made ill.

mustavaris
12-27-2007, 01:58 PM
not really , jews werent marginalized by any measure in the early 20th century europe.

and in some lower countries like netherlands or denmark i guess they were fled by the government before german occupation.

Ever hear about pogroms & ghettoes? Yes, they werent subject to random murders anymore during the early 19th century, but they werent part of the mainstream society either (in large scale, there were succesful politicians and businessmen and so forth), and in many places they were betrayed by their own countrymen.

Materially many Jewish minorities were well off, but otherwise than that... no noo. Even in Finland the newspapers during the 1920s..1930s were full of antisemite material, and one cannot say a bad word about our Jews.

Charpan
12-27-2007, 02:03 PM
Ever hear about pogroms & ghettoes? Yes, they werent subject to random murders anymore during the early 19th century, but they werent part of the mainstream society either (in large scale, there were succesful politicians and businessmen and so forth), and in many places they were betrayed by their own countrymen.

Materially many Jewish minorities were well off, but otherwise than that... no noo. Even in Finland the newspapers during the 1920s..1930s were full of antisemite material, and one cannot say a bad word about our Jews.

u r mixing up here , i was talking about the early 20th century ; jews were forcefully and systematically moved to ghettos after the nazi takeover , before that they probably were living among others.

mustavaris
12-27-2007, 02:10 PM
u r mixing up here , i was talking about the early 20th century ; jews were forcefully and systematically moved to ghettos after the nazi takeover , before that they probably were living among others.

Ghettoes were there before. But before the Nazis many Jews lived outside of them. In any cases, many ghettoes had their roots in medieval times.

Charpan
12-27-2007, 02:12 PM
Ghettoes were there before. But before the Nazis many Jews lived outside of them. In any cases, many ghettoes had their roots in medieval times.

so perhaps they were comfortable in them. that's how judaism works around the world, there is still the jewish ghetto in new york or montreal , who lives in it ? the "religious jew", who lives outside of it ? the "secular jew"

mustavaris
12-27-2007, 02:16 PM
so perhaps they were comfortable in them. that's how judaism works around the world, there is still the jewish ghetto in new york or montreal , who lives in it ? the "religious jew", who lives outside of it ? the "secular jew"

That is how the more or less excluded (by the society, or by themselves) minorities work.

Look at the suburban Europe.

Charpan
12-27-2007, 02:20 PM
1-That is how the more or less excluded (by the society, or by themselves) minorities work.

2-Look at the suburban Europe.

1- a bit different among jews , local jewish leadership plays a more important role in that

2- how z it like ?

mustavaris
12-27-2007, 02:37 PM
so perhaps they were comfortable in them. that's how judaism works around the world, there is still the jewish ghetto in new york or montreal , who lives in it ? the "religious jew", who lives outside of it ? the "secular jew"

1- a bit different among jews , local jewish leadership plays a more important role in that

2- how z it like ?

our non-native immigrants tend to gather into "ghettoes" excl. the ones that actually try to integrate..

Charpan
12-27-2007, 02:39 PM
our non-native immigrants tend to gather into "ghettoes" excl. the ones that actually try to integrate..

are jewish new yorkers immigrants ?

mustavaris
12-27-2007, 02:47 PM
are jewish new yorkers immigrants ?

They are.

But we are drifting further and further away from the core: the minorities which are excluded by outside society or who choose to do so, gather in same places. It is not Jewish-only thing, and the Nazis did not start ghettoes in Europe.

The European Jews could have left, yes, like the Palestinians could choose to go now and go to live among their fellow Arabs elsewhere (not advocating that).

But the fact is that the Jews had no state which would have fought besides them, they had no army, no military industries to back up the resistance and so forth. One cannot compare the European Jews vs. Nazis to Soviet Unions struggle against the Third Reich. They were minorities within the countries they lived in, they were often betrayed by their fellow countrymen and the crap that they faced from 1930s onwards was nothing new in Europe, it was only more systematical and industrial. And the anti-semitism was mature & old in 20th century Europe.

Charpan
12-27-2007, 02:49 PM
They are.

.

only a small portion of them maybe

mustavaris
12-27-2007, 02:51 PM
only a small portion of them maybe

I haven´t heard of Native American Jews.

And most of the European suburban third world sectors´inhabitants have been born there.

Charpan
12-27-2007, 02:55 PM
1-I haven´t heard of Native American Jews.

2-And most of the European suburban third world sectors´inhabitants have been born there.

1-there are many conversions to judaism in america , there could be even some indians converting to it.

2-u mean like french suburbs or there r similar suburbs in finland ?

mustavaris
12-27-2007, 03:02 PM
1-there are many conversions to judaism in america , there could be even some indians converting to it.

2-u mean like french suburbs or there r similar suburbs in finland ?

The French suburbs are classics, maybe the worst case scenario. We do not have as bad situation in Finland but we already have areas in two towns which are going to change into immigrant majority areas within short time span (actually I have lived in Turku´s Varissuo which has immigrant population of 30 %, many of the rest being native born low lives, but honestly speaking, I had zero problems with the non-native people, while Finnish junkies, alcoholics and skin heads were another matter..).

Charpan
12-27-2007, 05:27 PM
The French suburbs are classics, maybe the worst case scenario. We do not have as bad situation in Finland but we already have areas in two towns which are going to change into immigrant majority areas within short time span (actually I have lived in Turku´s Varissuo which has immigrant population of 30 %, many of the rest being native born low lives, but honestly speaking,

*I had zero problems with the non-native people, while Finnish junkies, alcoholics and skin heads were another matter..).

ok ,sounds nice. i'll try to visit finland someday

here where i live , putting recent immigrants aside , even christian italians ( northern italians , or white if u will , i havent seen anything sicilian like yet ) havent still managed to get themselves out of their ghettos. let alone others from further east or south. though their ghettos arent that bad, they're quiet and lovely in a way.

* i'm guessing u still havent had a contact with an immigrant from SOMALIA or ERITRA or some other arab-nigre mix..............

mustavaris
12-28-2007, 01:25 AM
* i'm guessing u still havent had a contact with an immigrant from SOMALIA or ERITRA or some other arab-nigre mix..............

Never met Eritreans, but got some non-nice experiences from the Somalis. On the other hand, my experiences are not entirely negative. I am not sure, but I think that one of my neighbours was Somali when I lived in Turku, and they were really nice folks. Like all the non-Finnish eighbours I had (ok, I had nice Finnish roommate). And I have met nice black people from Ethiopia, Kenya and Sudan.. My personal negative experiences from the black people are strictly restricted to Helsinki´s metro- & railway stations and the nocturnal scum wandering there in the capital and majority of them seem to be from Somalia.

Назарбаев
01-13-2008, 08:43 AM
What Holocaust?

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 08:50 AM
What Holocaust?

The one that killed millions of Jews aswell as Gypsies and disabled people from 1933 till 1945. The one that started when Hitler came to power and began his etnic cleansing. Please do not deny these facts. When you deny Jews being killed in holocaust, uou deny gyspies (Roma and Sinti people being killed aswell). I've seen there graves. I've talked to survivors. Do not tell me these inhumane massacres did not occure. For they did happen. Please, respect the dead by not denying the plain truth.

Zakali
01-13-2008, 10:19 AM
Allmost all of world hate Jews. I don't think anyone care about holocaust....

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 10:25 AM
Allmost all of world hate Jews. I don't think anyone care about holocaust....

I hate quite a few people. But I do not wish them dead. It's a bit harsh to say: "I do not like you, so I do not mind if you get yourself killed.'' It is allways wrong when someone is killed just because of the race he\she is born to. I do not like Belgian people and French people very much, but I don't say things like: "Good they were killed in WWI,'' or things like that. Same goes for Jews. If you do not like them, get over it. I'm pretty sure there must be some jews you do like. There are, after all, 15 million of them on this world. So quit the crazy talk! ;)

Zakali
01-13-2008, 10:29 AM
I do not hate Jews but most of the world do.

Well, not evryone are positive like u. They hate Jews and wish them death.

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 10:33 AM
I do not hate Jews but most of the world do.

Well, not evryone are positive like u. They hate Jews and wish them death.

In my country of the Netherlands, jews aren't very much disliked. They are not even in well paid jobs and do not live better live then the average Dutchman. But they do get high position like a that of mayor of Amsterdam... In Holocaust, the countries in which most Jews were turned in were: slavic countries and the Netherlands. We did not turn in our other countrymen, however. (some who did were executed after 1945 or lynched by mob). We are a western country but do not allways behave like one... :(

Zakali
01-13-2008, 10:37 AM
I have seen a movie about it. It was about an Jewish family in Netherland during WW2. Dutch people dosen't treated Jews bad, i know.

In Azerbaijan, in a city called Sumqayit were Jews and Armenians are majortiy there Armenians killed many Jews. It was simple massacre And they are proud of what they did. They accept it when u ask it to them.

But nobody care about it because it was Jews whom death. Jews may be have strong lobby but by ethnic they are quite poor in most of the world.....

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 10:41 AM
I have seen a movie about it. It was about an Jewish family in Netherland during WW2. Dutch people dosen't treated Jews bad, i know.

In Azerbaijan, in a city called Sumqayit were Jews are majority, Armenians killed many Jews there. And they are proud of what they did. They accept it.

But nobody care about it because it was Jews who death. Jews may be have strong lobby but by ethnic they are quite poor in most of the world.....

A few jews are okay with me, but to be completely honest with you; I wouldn't fancy having to many jews on this world. Look, there is one place in the world were they have got a majority of jews and look how things are going there... :( No, they should remain a ethnic minority everywere then everything's gonna be allright! ;)

Zakali
01-13-2008, 10:43 AM
Well, Jews in Azerbaijan are good. Don't know in other world countrys but here they are part of Azerbaijani nation.

But i understand why western world hate Jews....

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 10:49 AM
Well, Jews in Azerbaijan are good. Don't know in other world countrys but here they are part of Azerbaijani nation.

But i understand why western world hate Jews....

They may be part of your land but you would not want a Jew as president would you? Nor would I. And I am pretty sure that even in the Netherlands there will never be a Jewish president; he will be shot within short ammount of time. We once has a openly ga.y runner-up for presidency, Pim Fortuyn (he was going to win the election according to many) but he was shot before the actual elections took place. Same would surely happen with a jew... besides, the man was racist aswell... ;)

mustavaris
01-13-2008, 10:52 AM
There will be two states within some years (5-10 years, max). But whether the Palestinians fail or not, it remainst to be seen. The Arab record ain´t too good and the Palestianians are so divided. On the other hand, they are one of the groups who have gotten most money from international donors, so maybe they can do it. If they just can establish democracy, it would be a good start.

Zakali
01-13-2008, 10:53 AM
Well, actually Jewish lobby can do more then what president can. :D

Jewish president or not still they will ruin your country...

Zakali
01-13-2008, 10:55 AM
There will be two states within some years (5-10 years, max). But whether the Palestinians fail or not, it remainst to be seen. The Arab record ain´t too good and the Palestianians are so divided. On the other hand, they are one of the groups who have gotten most money from international donors, so maybe they can do it. If they just can establish democracy, it would be a good start.

I agree...

mustavaris
01-13-2008, 10:59 AM
They may be part of your land but you would not want a Jew as president would you? Nor would I. And I am pretty sure that even in the Netherlands there will never be a Jewish president; he will be shot within short ammount of time. We once has a openly ga.y runner-up for presidency, Pim Fortuyn (he was going to win the election according to many) but he was shot before the actual elections took place. Same would surely happen with a jew... besides, the man was racist aswell... ;)

If you tell the truth ´bout the people of Netherlands, Fortyin was not a racist by the local standards. He was not shot because he was ***, he was a liberal right winger who was a victim of a politcal murder commited by a commie/socialist.

Nah, I wouldnt care if the president is a Jew or not. As long as (s)he does the job.

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 11:04 AM
If you tell the truth ´bout the people of Netherlands, Fortyin was not a racist by the local standards. He was not shot because he was ***, he was a liberal right winger who was a victim of a politcal murder commited by a commie/socialist.

Nah, I wouldnt care if the president is a Jew or not. As long as (s)he does the job.

It was an animal welfare activist who shot Fortuyn. A pathetic communist fool. But we would have lost a lot of respect in the eyes of the world with such a foolish man leading the opposition. He was planning to completely abolish the military except for the navy and so forth. He had really foolish idea which made no sense at all and because he was very likely to win the election, killing him seemed to be the only way to stop him. So I do not mind, actually. I disagree with his killing and with the motives of the killing but do not mind his death. In fact, we're better of without him! ;)

mustavaris
01-13-2008, 11:15 AM
Nah, if the voters vote for wrong things, just kill their representatives? Or make a new elections, a la EU-style... that is not democracy of any kind.

You advocate totalitarian state and give tacit support to violence as a mean to intimidate the non-obedient ones.

Europe would be better off without most of the leftist politicians, and without the extreme right. So, let´s line up them and...? And we wouldnt stop there, no way...

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 11:25 AM
Nah, if the voters vote for wrong things, just kill their representatives? Or make a new elections, a la EU-style... that is not democracy of any kind.

You advocate totalitarian state and give tacit support to violence as a mean to intimidate the non-obedient ones.

Europe would be better off without most of the leftist politicians, and without the extreme right. So, let´s line up them and...? And we wouldnt stop there, no way...

All I was trying to say is that maybe the voters who voted Fortuyn (or were willing to vote him if he'd had survived), did this in a rush. They did not think about the consequences of having such a controversial figure as representive of our great country. Would you want a dumb, bi, bold g.ay leading and representing your country? I bet you wouldn't. If only his followers could have figured that out, there would not be no meaning to kill him. Besides, his political party still exists and nearly won the election even when Fortuyn was dead. His party is still excisting. It is called LPF; List Pim Fortuyn. ;)

mustavaris
01-13-2008, 11:27 AM
From the list you offered, only being dumb is relevant. And when I look at USA, Iran, Sweden, Finland.. such has never stopped politicians from making the decisions, even right ones.

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 11:33 AM
From the list you offered, only being dumb is relevant. And when I look at USA, Iran, Sweden, Finland.. such has never stopped politicians from making the decisions, even right ones.

Come on, he was planning nothing but wrong things. And then the things he said, they were outrageous! He said: "I like little Marrocan boys" and things like that... he was just a dirty bastard! He was very controversial. We Dutch people are very down to earth, decent people. No-nonsense people, you know that. Such a controversial figure could not be a good representative for us. Not that J.P. Balkenende is such a great person or politician, but he is not controversial. ;)

mustavaris
01-13-2008, 12:34 PM
How on Earth he was about to win then? We are talking about representative democracy or not?

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 12:44 PM
How on Earth he was about to win then? We are talking about representative democracy or not?

I guess the people who voted for him or considered voting him were mocking the entire concept of democracy. They were not taking their country nor their right to vote very seriously. :(

mustavaris
01-13-2008, 12:47 PM
I guess the people who voted for him or considered voting him were mocking the entire concept of democracy. They were not taking their country nor their right to vote very seriously. :(

I doubt it. If we talk about fringe party with few % of support, then maybe yes. But we talk about mainstrem party with large public support. Fortyin did address questions which the other politicians did not. So simple.

Grutte Pier
01-13-2008, 01:46 PM
I doubt it. If we talk about fringe party with few % of support, then maybe yes.

Such a fringe party with few % support currently excists; the party of our mutual friend Geert Wilders... ;)

But we talk about mainstrem party with large public support. Fortyin did address questions which the other politicians did not. So simple.

But him breaking taboo's was not an issue big enough for getting him a place in our government. It just does not weighs up to the less attractive parts of having a premier like him... He was a bloody facist, for God's sake! He called the Islam a ''backwards religion'' and also stated: ''I am also in favour of a cold war with Islam. I see Islam as an extraordinary threat, as a hostile religion''... Such a man would have done enormous damage to our reputation as a tolerant and easy-going country. Perhaps it is better Volkert van der Graaf shot him...

mustavaris
01-13-2008, 02:11 PM
Institutional religions are backwards due to their nature, it is the truth and one doesnt need to be non-religious to accept this.

In any case, I do not see Netherlands particularly tolerant anymore. It is the country where people get killed for political/religious reasons and people with differing opinions are threatened and so forth.

And this "hostile religion"-thing... well, certain people love to see Muslims are hostile entity like Soviet Union were, while we are talking about multi dimensional problem when talking about perceived "Muslim problem" in Europe. We have street crime (social & police matter, far from being unique for Muslims), radical Islam, marginalization (both sides guilty), illegal immigration and collision/interaction of different cultures. Some people just want to make things simple and clear to find easy answers.

Musa a.s.
01-14-2008, 11:50 PM
It is insensitive to say whether the Jews could of had a fight or not. It isn't a good excuse for israel copying Nazi's but the Jews really did suffer Genocide, and so did others. Many peoples suffered, Russians suffered the worse when a supprise war was imposed on them but the Russians still managed to defeat the Nazi's due to their will, industry and strong population. The Nazi's could not be defeated without the Russian's, they played the largest part. British was next largest, the rest was minor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._761st_Tank_Battalion

Musa a.s.
01-14-2008, 11:53 PM
Jews also had chance to fight back, and they also did in Warsaw ghetto, but they lost.
So why do you consider them as "victims of holocaust"?



Blacks?!

:roflmao3:

How many blacks lived in Europe you moron?!



So 28 million Russians died in friendly fire, not in systematically slaughter?
Most of them died of hunger and cold, and it's all because of war - or German attack.



That's true.
http://www.kintespace.com/kp_atolbert0.html

Intrn'l_relations101
01-15-2008, 06:48 AM
no one forgot it.. in fact it enjoys alot of attention all around the world.. Israel enjoys its lobby precisely because of this

gisse
10-27-2008, 07:19 AM
When you are talking about Holocaust can this be place under that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac#Victims

I know that it is wikipedia but there is some sources which can confirm all that.

Serbs where killed just because they are Serbs.Just like Jews but nobody didn't call that Holocaust.