Extent of C-802

[Jonathan M. Finegold]

How many C-802 anti-shipping missiles have been exported to Iran? Those that made it to Hezbollah, is it proven that they were given to by Iran, or by China? Any reason why only one C-802 was recorded to hit an Israeli ship during the blockade?

[arteshi]

How many C-802 anti-shipping missiles have been exported to Iran? Those that made it to Hezbollah, is it proven that they were given to by Iran, or by China? Any reason why only one C-802 was recorded to hit an Israeli ship during the blockade?

I am not sure if it was a c802 in the first place, it would also be not realistic for china to supply Hezbollah, Israel is more important to china for technologies than Iran is and would not ruin that. Apparently some people say it was an Chinese fl 2 or the Iranian copy of it. What is important is that IDF will have their air defence systems ready from this time on.

[Jonathan M. Finegold]

It was the introduction of the missile by Hezbollah which persuaded Israel to move it's PAC launchers north, I would venture to guess, no?

[Xerxes]

i am no expert but is C-802 called Silkworm as well?

i thought they were mainly effective for tankers

[lulldapull]

i am no expert but is C-802 called Silkworm as well?

i thought they were mainly effective for tankers

No! The Silkworm is a Chinese reverse engineered Styx/ N-2A circa 1960's and 70's, although against an unarmed vessel it is still very dangerous with its 1100lb warhead, virtually 3 times as much explosive payload as any exocet or harpoon. The C-801/ 802 are air breathing turbofan powered modern cruise missiles in the class of the AGM-84/ MM.39 with similar sized warheads. The one that hit the IDF Super Dvora off the Lebanese coast was an Iranian reverse engineered C-801. iran has used Chinese Silkworms before during the 80's against Iraqi and Kuwaiti shipping during the tanker war late in the Iran/ iraq conflict.

[4X-IL]

No! The Silkworm is a Chinese reverse engineered Styx/ N-2A circa 1960's and 70's, although against an unarmed vessel it is still very dangerous with its 1100lb warhead, virtually 3 times as much explosive payload as any exocet or harpoon. The C-801/ 802 are air breathing turbofan powered modern cruise missiles in the class of the AGM-84/ MM.39 with similar sized warheads. The one that hit the IDF Super Dvora off the Lebanese coast was an Iranian reverse engineered C-801. iran has used Chinese Silkworms before during the 80's against Iraqi and Kuwaiti shipping during the tanker war late in the Iran/ iraq conflict.

I keep hearing here about some kind of IDF's Super Dvora that was hit, but I just don't get it, where have you heard that?!

One, Single ship, A Saar 5 corrvette was hit by a C-802 missile.
The ship got back to Israel, and after 3 weeks of repairing was back to service, before the war even ended.

There WAS NOT Super-Dvora's boats in LEBANON!
Super-Dvora is a PATROL BOAT, in Lebanon there was MISSILES SHIPS!.

ONE ship was hit, that ship is already back to service.
No other ship was hit, not to even say was sunk.

[Khaybar]

Hezzbollah fired 4 C-802 antiship missile's, 2 at a saar 5 corvette of the coast of Beirut, 1 at a saar 4.5 off the coast of tyre, and one at a the super dvora gunboat which was sunk.

But these C-802 antiship missile are modified by Iran with a radar jammer in the tip of the warhead, to give it a 95% hit capability, even with the barrack anti missile defense turned on.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

Hezzbollah fired 4 C-802 antiship missile's, 2 at a saar 5 corvette of the coast of Beirut false, 1 missile hit the ship, also in the video of the impact we see only a single missile. the missile that was fired, hit the back of the Garage door in the saar 5 and exploded, 4 soldiers that was on the helicopter pad was killed from the blast and was thrown to the water, because the missile didn't panatrated the ship, the damage wasn't major, 1 at a saar 4.5 off the coast of tyre false, not a single Saar 4.5 ship was hit, and one at a the super dvora gunboat which was sunk. false, Super-Dvorot ships didn't took any part in the Lebanese coast,
there was 2 Super Dvorot ships near Haifa for patrolling. the Super Dvora is not a missiles ship and doesn't have anything to do in Lebanon, and thats why it didn't took part in the Lebanese coast.
Even after I heard it for the first time I checked personally for that information and was happy to know that Dvorot wasn't even there.

But these C-802 antiship missile are modified by Iran with a radar jammer in the tip of the warhead, to give it a 95% hit capability, even with the barrack anti missile defense turned on. Was already been prooved with a movie form inside the ship the the ship's anti-missiles system was turned off in order to save fuel because the ship that was suppose to switch it ( a Saar 4.5 ) was delayed in the port because of some problems. also, the Israeli navy done a huge mistake for not beeing prepared for such an attack. and this is obvious.

But this is just crap to say that 3 ships was hit.



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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام


1 was hit, and that one is already back to service.
be sure that if a missile would hit a Super Dvora it would've sunk in the second, and all the soldiers on it would died. do you really think that in a country like Israel you can lie, and hide 15 soldiers that was killed? or thinking the families will agree to saying they were killed inside Lebanon and not on their job on the ship? and their friends will? and no one will leak that? :roflmao3:

[Night]

The C-802 is an excellent missile, especially since the only Israeli ship it ever hit had it's RADAR and defensive systems turned OFF.

[lulldapull]

The C-802 is an excellent missile, especially since the only Israeli ship it ever hit had it's RADAR and defensive systems turned OFF.

Yeah I know 'nighty'......Just like that fricken USS Stark whose captain was pumping cheese with a sailor boy in the toilet when that Exocet busted in the showers surprisin them two fools?? :)

Quit making excuses! The C-802 will probably not even be detected like that Exocet was not either by the sooper dooper high tech equipment on U.S. warships.

[CallMeRussian]

The C-802 is an excellent missile, especially since the only Israeli ship it ever hit had it's RADAR and defensive systems turned OFF.

Lets be rational about this Night, What proof do we haver that the BARAK was turend off, Besides the IDF statement, You cant be sure, It wouldent be the first time the IDF has lied,

IMO the SAAR 5 got hit fair and square, The IDF just cant handle it, Also remeber many navies around the world have bought the BARAK system of Israel, Wich leads me to the conclusion that ISRAEL is just covering its *** by saying it was turned off, Cause no one would by it off them , The spainish navy and french navy would scapr the system , Think about it.

[Jonathan M. Finegold]

The C-802 is an excellent missile, especially since the only Israeli ship it ever hit had it's RADAR and defensive systems turned OFF.

The C-802 is considered second only to the Harpoon.

[Native]

Yeah I know 'nighty'......Just like that fricken USS Stark whose captain was pumping cheese with a sailor boy in the toilet when that Exocet busted in the showers surprisin them two fools?? :)

Quit making excuses! The C-802 will probably not even be detected like that Exocet was not either by the sooper dooper high tech equipment on U.S. warships.

At the time of the Stark attack, there were no open hositilities between Iraq and the U.S. so the TAO on duty made the mistake of assuming the Mirage would pass by the ship without incident.

The ship was not in a defensive stance at this time.
The Weapons Control Officer position was vacant.
The Fire Control Technician position was vacant.
The Close In Weapon System position was vacant.
The Fire Control radar was in stand-by mode.
The chaff system was not armed.
MK-92 CAS was in search mode.
CIWS was in stand-by mode.

At the time of missile launch; only the AN/SPS-49 and mk-92 cas Search radars were tracking the aircraft. No fire control radars were locked-on and tracking the aircraft.

[4X-IL]

There is a proof that the systems was off.

There was a movie showing the inside of the ship from a security camera from the control panel, showing the stats of the systems and the second the missile hit the ship and the panic that was in the ship.
If you don't believe that so I can't help you.

[Native]

There is a proof that the systems was off.

There was a movie showing the inside of the ship from a security camera from the control panel, showing the stats of the systems and the second the missile hit the ship and the panic that was in the ship.
If you don't believe that so I can't help you.

Which system are you talking about?

Not sure what your point is, can you please elaborate?

[Night]

Lets be rational about this Night, What proof do we haver that the BARAK was turend off, Besides the IDF statement, You cant be sure, It wouldent be the first time the IDF has lied,

IMO the SAAR 5 got hit fair and square, The IDF just cant handle it, Also remeber many navies around the world have bought the BARAK system of Israel, Wich leads me to the conclusion that ISRAEL is just covering its *** by saying it was turned off, Cause no one would by it off them , The spainish navy and french navy would scapr the system , Think about it.
It WAS turned off to avoid friendly fire to friendly aircraft above.

[masterfx]

c-803 is the best! is supersonic with 150km of range....

[lulldapull]

At the time of the Stark attack, there were no open hositilities between Iraq and the U.S. so the TAO on duty made the mistake of assuming the Mirage would pass by the ship without incident.

The ship was not in a defensive stance at this time.
The Weapons Control Officer position was vacant.
The Fire Control Technician position was vacant.
The Close In Weapon System position was vacant.
The Fire Control radar was in stand-by mode.
The chaff system was not armed.
MK-92 CAS was in search mode.
CIWS was in stand-by mode.

At the time of missile launch; only the AN/SPS-49 and mk-92 cas Search radars were tracking the aircraft. No fire control radars were locked-on and tracking the aircraft.

Heh!:) Sounds like you, the Sailor boy and the captain were all pumping cheese in the toilet when that Exocet surprised all you foo's!

You guys crack me up. Am I buying that "reasoning" from you??? Specially when that piece of shiit Stark was on war patrol, in a highly charged and hostile environment? Unless you were the captain of that pathetic ship I myself can make up a list of reasons why the Stark got busted.

P.S. Here's a good one 'native'.....perhaps the captain was in a compromising position with his buddies.:rolleyes1:

[CallMeRussian]

It WAS turned off to avoid friendly fire to friendly aircraft above.

What are you man the IDF PR machine,

Evry time you come out with a totally unproven suggestion that you try to force on others its takes a chip off your credability. Seriously now, Your not rational about things, Your automatically defending anything western, Just live with the fact that this western system could of failed,

[Night]

What are you man the IDF PR machine,

Evry time you come out with a totally unproven suggestion that you try to force on others its takes a chip off your credability. Seriously now, Your not rational about things, Your automatically defending anything western, Just live with the fact that this western system could of failed,
Out of 4 C-802's fired, one hit a ship not even sinking it.

[Jonathan M. Finegold]

What are you man the IDF PR machine,

Evry time you come out with a totally unproven suggestion that you try to force on others its takes a chip off your credability. Seriously now, Your not rational about things, Your automatically defending anything western, Just live with the fact that this western system could of failed,

Err, your 'suggestions' are unproven as well. I would suggest stop arguing. You are not rational about things; you automatically slam Western equipment with no actual information on the systems, et cetera.

[CallMeRussian]

Err, your 'suggestions' are unproven as well. I would suggest stop arguing. You are not rational about things; you automatically slam Western equipment with no actual information on the systems, et cetera.


Nice input, Very informative, HEy sherlock, IF you re-read my post i said

What are you man the IDF PR machine,

(Evry time you come out with a totally unproven suggestion that you try to force on others its takes a chip off your credability. Seriously now, Your not rational about things, Your automatically defending anything western, Just live with the fact that this western system could of failed,)


I said COULD of failed. Not did fail, Where on the other hand , You have the allies forces on this forum saying it DID NOT IT WAS OFF , The IDF is the most sneaky full of **** lyeing army on the planet, Even a kid knows this, HOW CREDIBLE IS THERE WORD, Thats what im trying to say Mr Finegold.

[CallMeRussian]

Out of 4 C-802's fired, one hit a ship not even sinking it.

This is common, Remeber they were bring fired by a GURILLA force from land with minimal technology and know how, aBut still how do we know that the other Missles were the C802, They could of been another type, Possibly a Iranian missle that failed.

[Native]

Heh!:) Sounds like you, the Sailor boy and the captain were all pumping cheese in the toilet when that Exocet surprised all you foo's!

You guys crack me up. Am I buying that "reasoning" from you??? Specially when that piece of shiit Stark was on war patrol, in a highly charged and hostile environment? Unless you were the captain of that pathetic ship I myself can make up a list of reasons why the Stark got busted.

P.S. Here's a good one 'native'.....perhaps the captain was in a compromising position with his buddies.:rolleyes1:

dude you have some seriously oppressed sexual issues, anyways..
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/reading_room/65.pdf

[VIVA IRAN]

The C-802 is an excellent missile, especially since the only Israeli ship it ever hit had it's RADAR and defensive systems turned OFF.

that is so stupid and the IDF said that only to reduce the shame and embarrassment.

first of all, Iran makes C-802 and secondly "since the C-802 missile has a small radar reflectivity and is only about five to seven meters above the sea surface when it attacks the target, and since its guidance equipment has strong anti-jamming capability, target ships have a very low success rate in intercepting the missile. The hit probability of the C-802 is estimated to be as high as 98 percent."

[Jonathan M. Finegold]

CallMeRussians, stop arguing up a slippery slope, please.

[Night]

that is so stupid and the IDF said that only to reduce the shame and embarrassment.

first of all, Iran makes C-802 and secondly "since the C-802 missile has a small radar reflectivity and is only about five to seven meters above the sea surface when it attacks the target, and since its guidance equipment has strong anti-jamming capability, target ships have a very low success rate in intercepting the missile. The hit probability of the C-802 is estimated to be as high as 98 percent."

RCS isn't the only factor in detection, the jamming systems used on missiles can be traced aswell..

[Native]

hehe Night,
I wasn't going to bother going into that.
EW is fun! I spent 2 years with a VAQ squadron, I learned alot.

[Sanchezz]

Offcourse that defense system on that ship was not turned off... israel was in state of war and that ship was conduction military operations .. standard procedure - all defense weapons on - all stations ready... IDF lied about that to conceal their weakness.You are talkin about a movie clip .. it could easily be faked so no proof in that.Security camera is generaly low quality.And IT IS VERY EASY TO FAKE A PANIC ON THE SHIP....

[Xerxes]

Out of 4 C-802's fired, one hit a ship not even sinking it.

doesnt a today's anti-ship missiles sacrifice firepower for maneurability and electronics. i am no expert, but from what i have seen most recent anti-ship missiles managed only to disable or 'knock-off' the combattant. maybe some in thr Falkland war.

In the old days a cruiser and battleship would pump a lot of explosive power into enemy ship; a C-802's warhead roughly equals I guess only a single 16-inch shell. I dont know what are the actual numbers, but volume wise it is only one missile's warhead.

The US-made AGM-84 Harpoon fired by American-trained Iranian Navy didnt do better in 1988 against US ships. but thats a different story I guess

[VIVA IRAN]

RCS isn't the only factor in detection, the jamming systems used on missiles can be traced aswell..


Don't just sit there on your *** and open your mouth.
what do you know about jamming, anti jamming and basically EW?
I'm not just any random guy who you can say anything to and be sure that he doesn't know anything about what your saying.
this is what I study so keep your crap to yourself!
one of the reasons that Israel lost in the battle field in its last conflict with Hizbollah was that they sucked in EW!

[Native]

this is what I study so keep your crap to yourself!

Do you study EW for the military, as a civillian or as a hobby?



one of the reasons that Israel lost in the battle field in its last conflict with Hizbollah was that they sucked in EW!

Another possible factor is the IDF wasn't prepared to fight the fight Hizbollah was. The Hizbollah have been studying the IDF and training to fight the IDF. I heard it speculated that the IDF went in like they would to fight another army. Urban warfare is always dangerous.
One thing to keep in mind, is that as Hizbollah studying the IDF and trained to fight them. The IDF is surely doing Lessons Learned and re-training.

[VIVA IRAN]

Another possible factor is the IDF wasn't prepared to fight the fight Hizbollah was. The Hizbollah have been studying the IDF and training to fight the IDF. I heard it speculated that the IDF went in like they would to fight another army. Urban warfare is always dangerous.
One thing to keep in mind, is that as Hizbollah studying the IDF and trained to fight them. The IDF is surely doing Lessons Learned and re-training.

To really know the enemy, you have to win an intelligence war first. You need to know what you will be facing and how you are going to react.
Israel lost the intelligence war and Hezbollah was victorious.

Another thing that you have to keep in mind is that Hezbollah won the EW against Israel and winning the EW comes down to the sophistication of the equipment that you use and the techniques you apply.

[Night]

And you make the mistake of assuming Israeli EW systems are as good as American ones. We invented EW and we are worlds ahead of the Israelis at it.

[PersianPrince]

And you make the mistake of assuming Israeli EW systems are as good as American ones. We invented EW and we are worlds ahead of the Israelis at it.

Uneducated runt.The Israeli frigate had an American CWIS Missile defence shield.

[Night]

CWIS is not the only American EW system on ships :roflmao3:

[Khaybar]

Here are the pictures of the saar 5 hit by two C-802 anti-ship missiles, and the damage at the waterline( the two holes and the exhaust of the fumes).

http://www.jeffhead.com/images/idf-saar5-hit1.jpg

http://www.jeffhead.com/images/idf-saar5-hit2.jpg

http://www.jeffhead.com/images/idf-saar5-hit3.jpg




Here is a video showing Hezbollah firing two C-802 missiles at the saar 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0AeWjeHaPc



And here is a picture of the super dvora gunboat after it was sunk off the coast of Tyre:

http://www.iranclubs.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2281&d=1155308945


And if the barrack defense system was turned off for fear of friendly fire, but doesn't this deatroyer have IFF? and wouldn't addmitting that the system had failed would be less of a humiliation than saying that the system was turned off?
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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[VIVA IRAN]

And you make the mistake of assuming Israeli EW systems are as good as American ones. We invented EW and we are worlds ahead of the Israelis at it.

try to be a bit more mature and keep your crap to yourself.
you did not invent EW. when EW was first born you were far from understanding it.
Israel was accounted an important world power in the development of electronic warfare systems – so much so that a symbiotic relationship evolved for the research and development of many US and Israeli electronic warfare systems, in which a mix of complementary American and Israeli devices and methods were invested.

[Native]

By the way, Phalanx isn't an EW system, it's a point defense system. Basically a big gatling gun with it's own Searach and FC radar.

If a misslie gets to the point where you are relying on Phalanx, it's too late.

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Those are some pretty impressive waterline hits, I'm really curious to see what the damage looks like inside.

[4X-IL]

Here are the pictures of the saar 5 hit by two C-802 anti-ship missiles, and the damage at the waterline( the two holes and the exhaust of the fumes).

1 missile, and you can see the damage on the Garage.
The two holes on the water line are always there, and always have soot around it, you can see on the garage and the helicopter pad the damage caused by the missile, this was it

http://www.jeffhead.com/images/idf-saar5-hit1.jpg

http://www.jeffhead.com/images/idf-saar5-hit2.jpg

http://www.jeffhead.com/images/idf-saar5-hit3.jpg




Here is a video showing Hezbollah firing two C-802 missiles at the saar 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0AeWjeHaPc

Firing two, only 1 hit, the second one hit the water which is the picture you put down here.

And here is a picture of the super dvora gunboat after it was sunk off the coast of Tyre:

http://www.iranclubs.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2281&d=1155308945

False, this is just the second missile that hit the water instead of the Saar. Super-Dvora patrol boat never EVER was on the coasts of Lebanon, those are patrol boats and not Missiles ships, and deson't operational in enemy's territory but only beeing used to patrolling. the Dvora doesn't have the abillity to attack Lebanon - no reason for it to be there.


And if the barrack defense system was turned off for fear of friendly fire, but doesn't this deatroyer have IFF? and wouldn't addmitting that the system had failed would be less of a humiliation than saying that the system was turned off?
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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام



something else?

[Yoni45]

something else?

4X, your point works even better like this:

Heres pictures of a Saar 5. The marks are visible relatively clearly even with the waves...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saar5.jpg

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rocn/saar-5.jpg

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/saar5/images/saar1.jpg

[Khaybar]

http://www.iranclubs.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2281&d=1155308945

That picture was taken off the coast of Tyre, the saar 5 was hit off the coast of beirut, and at night not the light of day, plus that picture was taken 2 to 3 weeks after the first two hits, check your eyes and your geography before you comment, and the two holes in the saar 5 are clearly visible at the water line, one next to the hangar, and another right in the middle, if you want to denie it then go ahead, but the evidence is right there in front of you, and everyone can see it.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[Yoni45]

http://www.iranclubs.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2281&d=1155308945

That picture was taken off the coast of Tyre, the saar 5 was hit off the coast of beirut, and at night not the light of day, plus that picture was taken 2 to 3 weeks after the first two hits, check your eyes and your geography before you comment, and the two holes in the saar 5 are clearly visible at the water line, one next to the hangar, and another right in the middle, if you want to denie it then go ahead, but the evidence is right there in front of you, and everyone can see it.


Not the brightest of propagandists are you? That picture was indeed taken a few weeks later, but regardless, what does it show? Smoke? Congrats.

Any other actual evidence that a ship was destroyed? Last I checked, when ships sink, they don't just dissappear into the water and leave a faint smoke signal...

As for the 2 "holes" in the Saar 5, they're also visible in the pictures of the ships I provided that weren't hit by anything. Care to add 2 and 2 together...?

[Khaybar]

Propagandist? so every time someone posts factual information, you will label him a propagandist? that's besides the point.

The point is, that the gunboat, wich was said to be destroyed, meaning splintering it into pieces, might have just been pierced and caught fire, and then simply sunk,(explaining thae lack of debris) is it that farfetched, or do you just refuse to believe it because of your "political alignement"?

Then care to explain the smoke rising from the sea? what are you going to argue "It was planted", pfah, now whose the propagandist?"

As for the two holes, what are you trying to imply about "care to add 2 to 2 together...?" i was trying to prove to the other guy that the ship was hit twice not four times, but he insisted that it was hit only once, while the evidence is clear in front of him.


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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[Yoni45]

Propagandist? so every time someone posts factual information, you will label him a propagandist? that's besides the point.

No, your attempt to push obviously false and disproven information is what earns you your tag of 'propagandist'. Your methods of doing it earn you your tag of 'not the brightest of'... ;)

The point is, that the gunboat, wich was said to be destroyed, meaning splintering it into pieces, might have just been pierced and caught fire, and then simply sunk,(explaining thae lack of debris) is it that farfetched, or do you just refuse to believe it because of your "political alignement"?

Then care to explain the smoke rising from the sea? what are you going to argue "It was planted", pfah, now whose the propagandist?"

Buddy, you showed smoke on the water, and you believe this is sufficient evidence that a ship was sunk? You honestly believe that there aren't hundreds if not thousands of possible causes for there to be smoke on the water?

Here's another ship the Hezbollah claimed to have sunk, and provided pictures too. How nice of them. Turns out it was an Australian ship deliberately sunk in 1998 by the Australians themselves.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/hezbollah_sinks_australian_warship/


Let me make this quite clear: Do you have *ANY* actual evidence to show that an Israeli ship was sunk?

As for the two holes, what are you trying to imply about "care to add 2 to 2 together...?" i was trying to prove to the other guy that the ship was hit twice not four times, but he insisted that it was hit only once, while the evidence is clear in front of him.

Again, this really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. You showed 2 holes on the ship that was hit. I showed you 2 holes in the exact same place on ships of the same model that WEREN'T hit. Do I really need to spell this out to you...?

[Khaybar]

Then please explain to me how 4 sailors died if there was no apparent damage to the ship? That's first, second those photos that you'r showing are those of a scuttled Australian ship, and in broad daylight, while the israeli ship was hit during the night, so i don't know what are you trying to say by showing these pictures, but it wasn't us that posted them.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[Yoni45]

Then please explain to me how 4 sailors died if there was no apparent damage to the ship?

I didn't say there wasn't any damage; just not where you claimed it was.

That's first, second those photos that you'r showing are those of a scuttled Australian ship, and in broad daylight, while the israeli ship was hit during the night, so i don't know what are you trying to say by showing these pictures, but it wasn't us that posted them.

No, it wasn't you that posted them. It was Hezbollah that claimed they sunk a ship and provided those pictures as "evidence", which shows just how far the credibility of the Hezbollah goes.

Smoke along the waterline and Hezbollah's claims of "WE SUNK ANOTHER ONE!!!11", with no evidence of any ship whatsoever are far from convincing...

[Khaybar]

To be frank, the only time i'v seen these photos were on this forum, second, these photos never appeared on Hezbollah's tv network, so it seems to me that you're just out to sabotage by showing me pictures that Hezbollah never claimed to be his.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

Khaybar, if you didn't understand it by now, the two holes in the Saar 5 are the ejectors of the ship, the same as the one at the back of a car, so there's black around it because of the soot.

You can't see a lot of damage on the Saar 5 because the missile didn't penetrated to the ship but only exploded near the Garage door.
The explosion killed 4 people and pushed them to the water.
those 4 people were standing on the Helicopter pad at the time of the impact.

about the picture of the Australian ship, Hizballah DID said it was the Israeli ship, even in some Israeli forum they asked if this is the ship and gave some link of Hizballah site claiming this is the Israeli ship that was destroyed and everybody laughed.

Fact is that there was no Israeli ship that was sunk, and if there was, do you ACTUALLY think that in a country in the size of Israel you can choose not to report on a sinking ship with 15 soldiers dead on it? and no one will ever say something!? no where in the world you can do such thing, specially in Israel.
The Israeli media and army will never hide such thing.

[Khaybar]

Hezbollah never claimed it, and if you'r so fanatic about this fact, then prove it, Hezbollah has no official web site, and i stress on official, give me the link, give me proof, not a link to website run by some people living in Syria, Iran, Egypt or anything else, that says Hezbollah provided these pictures as proof of the ship being sunk.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

Hezbollah never claimed it, and if you'r so fanatic about this fact, then prove it, Hezbollah has no official web site, and i stress on official, give me the link, give me proof, not a link to website run by some people living in Syria, Iran, Egypt or anything else, that says hezbollah provided these pictures as proof of the ship being sunk.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام


This is something else.
I do believe that there're people from Hizballah in this site, but I don't know that for sure.
The thing is, that you will always caught Muslims lie, like in Gaza ( aka Pallywood and Al Durah ), and Muslim sites that lie, and Hizballah ( Hizballah's TV station Al-Manar ) lying, like in the case of the ships that got hit and the Super Dvora that was so called sunk, but wasn't even there, to the Hizballah saying it doesn't use civilian areas to launch rockets to Israel and 1 hour later the IAF showed videos of them launching rockets from a roof of a school in a village and from within high building.

Wired, I didn't saw Israel lying, if you have any cases of that, please show me.

[Khaybar]

Hezbollah hiding weapons in civilian building?

First the rocket launchers used by Hezbollah cannot fire from enclosed location like a room or a school, or anything similar(Houses, apartment buildings, etc...etc...etc), because of the great or enormous backfire generated from the rocket launch, wich would lead either to the death of the crew or the complete destruction of the missile and the launcher.
While putting the rocket on the roof, would be stupid since it would take quite a long time to lift it then hide it again.

Second, Hezbollah is paranoid security and intelligence wise, in this war we've seen in Lebanon about 100 to 500 traitors and operators, do you really think that Hezbollah would risk putting his weapons in civilian areas so that traitors would designate them? Hezbollah reapeatdly said that they don't trust the civilian populatio, let alone tell them where the his weapons were.

Third, Hezbollah's supoort grew to 80-90% in the whole of Lebanon, how is this possible if Hezbollah hides his weapons, in civilian areas and endangers them?

Fourth, if you say all these Lebanese and Arab tv stations are lying, then what is preventing israeli media from lying as well? israeli stations are no saints, that sunk super dvora was seen on more several Arab news tv strations, at the same time,(they'r all lying?). Frankly i pitty your sort of news agency's that do not show what's happening in gaza, while here we see it all, how bodies of palestinians are torn apart, bleeding to death, etc.. etc.. etc.. espescially that familly that was massacred on a beach in gaza after an israeli shell struck them, of course israeli denied it and said it was a Hamas rocket.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

Hezbollah hiding weapons in civilian building?

First the rocket launchers used by Hezbollah cannot fire from enclosed location like a room or a school, or anything similar(Houses, apartment buildings, etc...etc...etc), because of the great or enormous backfire generated from the rocket launch, wich would lead either to the death of the crew or the complete destruction of the missile and the launcher.
While putting the rocket on the roof, would be stupid since it would take quite a long time to lift it then hide it again.

Lol you say exacly what we think here, only that you say doing such thing is stupid and like they didn't do it, but you know what? a picture worth a 1000 words, and a movie worth 10,000. go the IDF site and watch the movies from Lebanon, and watch how they launch it from INSIDE a building, from a SCHOOL ROOF, and from areas near villages in general. its all there, just take a look and watch by yourself.

Second, Hezbollah is paranoid security and intelligence wise, in this war we've seen in Lebanon about 100 to 500 traitors and operators, do you really think that Hezbollah would risk putting his weapons in civilian areas so that traitors would designate them? Hezbollah reapeatdly said that they don't trust the civilian populatio, let alone tell them where the his weapons were.

again, you only show how stupid they are for DOING those thing.

Third, Hezbollah's supoort grew to 80-90% in the whole of Lebanon, how is this possible if Hezbollah hides his weapons, in civilian areas and endangers them?

what..?

Fourth, if you say all these Lebanese and Arab tv stations are lying, then what is preventing israeli media from lying as well? israeli stations are no saints, that sunk super dvora was seen on more several Arab news tv strations, at the same time,(they'r all lying?). Frankly i pitty your sort of news agency's that do not show what's happening in gaza, while here we see it all, how bodies of palestinians are torn apart, bleeding to death, etc.. etc.. etc.. espescially that familly that was massacred on a beach in gaza after an israeli shell struck them, of course israeli denied it and said it was a Hamas rocket.

The Israeli media doesn't lie because Israel is a modern, western country, we're just NOT LIKE THEM.
The stations showed the " SUPER - DVORA " that was SUNK""""!! after Al-Manar showed it and they took their broadcast.
They don't care wether its true or not, they want rating. the Israeli media showed those pictures as well, only that in our case there was military experts in there that said that its not true.
Actually, our news agencies DOES showing whats going on in Gaza, every single day, we see the funerals, we see the " fathers " holding their dead kids, we see the same women all the time crying on destroyed houses, we see it all.

The thing that killed the family on the beach WAS NOT Israeli, and it have nothing to do with Israel denie it or not, it was prooved in the lab as NOT Israeli shell, but a MINE, planted by Hamas.


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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام



anything else?

[Khaybar]

Oh yes the israeli media are all saints.

And these claims, that the missiles are fired from enclosed areas, are false, because all i've seen from the idf videos, could just as well be put together, is it impossible, you claim to say that israel is so far advanced tecnologically, then what prevents from manufacturing these films? i can easily do these images, using 3dsmax8 or Maya builder. These claims are just justifications to the public to rest your conscience to say it's ok to kill these people, these civilians because they'r sitting on missiles?

Look wether you want to beleive if there were missiles hidden in these buildings i don't care, the fact remains that your goverment, your "honorable"(yeah right) iaf killed without discremanation women and children. Hezbollah doesn't have missiles that can be fired from the southern suburbs of Beirut to hit northern israel, and yet that part of beirut was bombed and shelled, and hundreds of civilians died, for what? because they couldn't reach any of Hezbollah's military infrastructure.

If in fact they have identified every Hezbollah weapon cache, then why does he still have more, and i stress on more, than 20000 rockets?

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[Jonathan M. Finegold]

A modern anti-shipping missile is less powerful than a 16" shell through the way they work. A 16" APBC shell would cause much more damage to the ship given that it works through both kinetic energy and chemical energy, while a ASM only uses chemical energy [a hollow charge high explosive, normally]. Meaning, it has to puncture the armour of the warship with this high explosive, while the shell would do so with the ballistic cap, and then explode once it penetrates, meaning much more damage is done. On the other hand, anti-shipping missiles are meant only to damage smaller ships, and this is not inherent in design, but moreso because modern navies tend to use less armoured ships in favour of higher technologies on the ship [like better close-in weapon systems].

[Yoni45]

Hezbollah never claimed it, and if you'r so fanatic about this fact, then prove it, Hezbollah has no official web site, and i stress on official, give me the link, give me proof, not a link to website run by some people living in Syria, Iran, Egypt or anything else, that says hezbollah provided these pictures as proof of the ship being sunk.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=hezbollah+claims+sunk+israeli+ship+pictures+australian&btnG=Search

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/hezbollah_sinks_australian_warship/
http://newsbusters.org/node/7129

And plenty of other cites confirming the Hezbollah claim, with at least 1 official Australian news agency behind them...

[Yoni45]

Oh yes the israeli media are all saints.

And these claims, that the missiles are fired from enclosed areas, are false, because all i've seen from the idf videos, could just as well be put together, is it impossible, you claim to say that israel is so far advanced tecnologically, then what prevents from manufacturing these films? i can easily do these images, using 3dsmax8 or Maya builder. These claims are just justifications to the public to rest your conscience to say it's ok to kill these people, these civilians because they'r sitting on missiles?

If you make a claim, it's upto you to provide evidence for it.

[Khaybar]

You gave me links to site of western media, that is anit Arab, how am i going to be convinced? links to a blog? nothing official?

And provide you evidence with what? something that did no happen? am i to fire a rocket from an enclosed area, then kill myself just to prove it to you?

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

So, you denie the fact that
http://www.moqavemat.ir/
is the official Hizballah website?

If you don't, here you go.

The picture of the ship with description of what happened WAS there, they only deleted it after they saw how everyone all over the net figured out whats going on in there.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/hezbollah_sinks_australian_warship/

UPDATE. Hezbollah has now removed the image.

[Khaybar]

I do not denie it, it is a fact that Hezbollah has no websites, what, do you expect them to be running a local server, and a proxy, so that they might be traced, and bombed?

These are websites, formed by supporters, and there are dozens of them on the internet, the only media outlet that Hezbollah has is the Al-Manar tv network and it's website, that's for the political wing, while the military wing, has it's own media outlet, the war media, wich airs very carefully pictures of the fightings, and the operations on the Al-Manart tv network. That the only official media outlets.

Don't post blogs, because anyone can make those. Besides that website, Moquavemat.ir is an Irani website, not Lebanese.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

A quick search in the web will tell you that this IS the Hizballah official website.

but ok, let go of this website, you just said that Al-Manar is Hizballah TV station, and Al-Manar was lying and said that this smoke on the Water is an Israeli Super-Dvora.

Fact is, that it IS a lie, wether you like it or not.
They said that an Israeli F-16 was shot down from the sky by Hizballah missile, while it was actually a HIZBALLAH Zilzal missile that was shot down by an Israeli F-16.

comon now, you tell me that a western TV station will act like amatures like they do? and of course... they don't lie.

[Khaybar]

Al-Manar was not the only one that reported the suped dvora sinking, more than 10 local and internationnaly news agencys took that same image.

Second, what you fail to realise that the military wing is separate from the political wing, meaning the people working at the tv station don't know the capabilities and what's happening on the ground, for securitys sake.
The military wing never said that they shot down an f-16, every news agency on the ground thought it was an f-16, including cnn, and Euronews, then it was clarified that it was either a uav, or a similar spy drone, that was shot down by a portable sam-6 or sam-7.

I would like to point you to contradiction you just said, you said that that object over the suburbs shot down over Beirut was a Zilzal rocket.
An israeli military official went on cnn, to clarify when everyone was thinking that it was an f-16, that the iaf had no warplanes flying over Beirut at that time, so how is it possible that a Zilzal rocket was shot down, was a ghost that shot it down?

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

Al-Manar was not the only one that reported the suped dvora sinking, more than 10 local and internationnaly news agencys took that same image.

Second, what you fail to realise that the military wing is separate from the political wing, meaning the people working at the tv station don't know the capabilities and what's happening on the ground, for securitys sake.
The military wing never said that they shot down an f-16, every news agency on the ground thought it was an f-16, including cnn, and Euronews, then it was clarified that it was either a uav, or a similar spy drone, that was shot down by a portable sam-6 or sam-7.

I would like to point you to contradiction you just said, you said that that object over the suburbs shot down over Beirut was a Zilzal rocket.
An israeli military official went on cnn, to clarify when everyone was thinking that it was an f-16, that the iaf had no warplanes flying over Beirut at that time, so how is it possible that a Zilzal rocket was shot down, was a ghost that shot it down?

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام


you're not very updated I guess.

It took few days till the IAF annouced with the video even coming from the Python 4 seeker! showing the impact of the missile.
I have no idea why they didn't published it right away, maybe because they didn't wanted them to know they're up there waiting for big missiles to be launched so they will launch everything they got and the IAF will shut it down, so they wont have any left for surprise attacks.. I really don't know.
they showed whatever left from the Zilzal that was hit on ground, its was splitered to a half, why would it happen if nothing attacked it? we saw in the skys of beirut the impact of the missiles.

[Khaybar]

You'r not making any sense, the iaf said they had no warplanes over Beirut, so whay they denied it? plus it is a rocket not a missile, meaning it has not radar or electronic signature, espescially since it had no guidance equipment so how did the fighter lock on the target? that is if there were any warplanes present. if those rockets had any signature whatsoever then the patriot defense system should hsve been able to shoot them down.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

You'r not making any sense, the iaf said they had no warplanes over Beirut, so whay they denied it? plus it is a rocket not a missile, meaning it has not radar or electronic signature, espescially since it had no guidance equipment so how did the fighter lock on the target? that is if there were any warplanes present. if those rockets had any signature whatsoever then the patriot defense system should hsve been able to shoot them down.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

The Zilzal ( Zilzal 2 ) is the biggest missiles ( note: missile, not a rocket ) that Hizballah is known to have.

What the connection between radar signature to heat signature?

The Zilzal have a range of more than 100km with 600kg of explosives! its need a huge motor, which no modern and not even old seeker missiles have problem to lock on it.
In the movie of the impact you see it all.

[Khaybar]

The Zilzal is a rocket not a missile, the distinction between the two is that one is guided, that being the missile, and the other unguided that being the rocket, the Zilzal is unguided, hence it is a rocket.

And the only video that i'v seen of a "dogfight" in this entire war, was between an f-16 and a Hezbollah UAV over israel.

And if the iaf who went on cnn(wich you so well love), said when everyone thought that an f-16 was shot down, that it had no warplanes flying over Beirut at that time, then they change theire minds, according to you when they see it fit.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[Yoni45]

I do not denie it, it is a fact that Hezbollah has no websites, what, do you expect them to be running a local server, and a proxy, so that they might be traced, and bombed?

These are websites, formed by supporters, and there are dozens of them on the internet, the only media outlet that Hezbollah has is the Al-Manar tv network and it's website, that's for the political wing, while the military wing, has it's own media outlet, the war media, wich airs very carefully pictures of the fightings, and the operations on the Al-Manart tv network. That the only official media outlets.

Don't post blogs, because anyone can make those. Besides that website, Moquavemat.ir is an Irani website, not Lebanese.


blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/hezbollah_sinks_australian_warship/

That's not "just" a "blog". It's one run by a correspondent for the Herald Sun, an prominent Australian newspaper, making it an "official" story, like it or not...

[Yoni45]

Al-Manar was not the only one that reported the suped dvora sinking, more than 10 local and internationnaly news agencys took that same image.

Second, what you fail to realise that the military wing is separate from the political wing, meaning the people working at the tv station don't know the capabilities and what's happening on the ground, for securitys sake.
The military wing never said that they shot down an f-16, every news agency on the ground thought it was an f-16, including cnn, and Euronews, then it was clarified that it was either a uav, or a similar spy drone, that was shot down by a portable sam-6 or sam-7.

I would like to point you to contradiction you just said, you said that that object over the suburbs shot down over Beirut was a Zilzal rocket.
An israeli military official went on cnn, to clarify when everyone was thinking that it was an f-16, that the iaf had no warplanes flying over Beirut at that time, so how is it possible that a Zilzal rocket was shot down, was a ghost that shot it down?

And each one of those media stations reported that "according to Al-Manar/Hezbollah..."

As for the Israeli statements that no F-16s were there at the moment, care to cite a link? And the zelzal rockets couldn't have been hit with something other than an f-16?

And pathetically enough, Hezbollah never did provide any kind of evidence for the F-16 they "shot down"...

[Khaybar]

They never said they shot down an f-16, there was a flying objects descending in flames, people, witnesses, newsagencys, all of them said, or thought an f-16 had been shot down, Hezbollah ever does an operation, he gives a military report to the Lebanese goverment, and the Lebanese military, then the Al-Manar tv station, but no report was given.

And i'm not the one insisting that an f-16 shot down a Zilzal rocket, the other guy is, and if any Zilzal rocket was shot down, with what, the nearset warship was too far to shoot it down with a phalanx, and it cannot be targeted by a radar homing air to air missile, since it has no radar signature, if you want to claim it was hit by a heat seeking missile then who fired that missile?

As for the israeli goverment stating that there was no f-16s flying over Beirut at that time, like said cnn, Euronews, and even AlJazeera, had israeli iaf generals on air to say that they had no warplanes flying over Beirut at that time.

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

I am not sure wether it was an F-16 F-15 or a ground - air missile fired from IAF's air defence systems, but since it was in Beirut, the only possiblity that it was an F-15 or F-16.

I don't know from where to missile was launched, I only know it was an Air-Air missile, wether its a Python 4 or 5 or AIM-9 or AIM-120 or AIM-7 I do not know, I only know it was a heat seeker missile that hit it.

Even if the missile doesn't need to have Radar signature to be targeted.
Air-Air missile doesn't work on Radiation but on heat, and every ROCKET \ Missile have it, wether its big or small, and because it was big it was easy to target. end of story.

[Khaybar]

Then who, or what shot it down?

Second, if you want to feel proud of shooting down just one rocket, wich you didn't then go right ahead, the fact still remains that 4000 rockets pounded northern israel, and you'r trying to weed out whatever sort of glorie you can from the ALLEGED shooting down of the Zilzal,( wich in fact did not happen).

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام

[4X-IL]

Then who, or what shot it down?

Second, if you want to feel proud of shooting down just one rocket, wich you didn't then go right ahead, the fact still remains that 4000 rockets pounded northern israel, and you'r trying to weed out whatever sort of glorie you can from the ALLEGED shooting down of the Zilzal,( wich in fact did not happen).

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تزول الجبال ولا تزل عض على ناجذك اعر الله جمجمتك تدفى في الارض قدمك ارم ببصرك اقصى القوم و غض بصرك و اعلم ان النصر من عند الله سبحانه
امير المؤمنين علي عليه السلام


Fact - it did happen.

those 4000 rockets weren't Zilzals, but little rockets that their max range if Haifa.
The Zilzal was shotable because of its size because it had a range of more than 100km's and was aimed at the center of Israel.