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irandefender
01-14-2006, 10:35 AM
salam

Does any one know about the new SU-27s that iran bought.
please read the article below I underlined iran in it.
thank you

http://www.jetfly.hu/rovatok/repules/katonai/hirek/su27crash_050928/foto_su27o.jpg

http://mfinfo.ru/files/2-su-27.jpg

http://www.globalaircraft.org/photos/planephotos/su-27_1.jpg


The Sukhoi Su-27
v1.0.2 / 01 jun 02 / greg goebel / public domain

* While the Russia that has emerged from the ruins of the old Soviet empire remains disorganized and shaky, the Russian military still retains some impressive weapons. One of the more impressive is the Sukhoi Su-27 fighter, a large combat aircraft that is one of the mainstays of Russian air power. This document describes the history and details of the Su-27.



[1] ORIGINS / SUKHOI T10
* In 1969, the United States Air Force (USAF) selected the McDonnell Douglas F-15 as the winner of the service's "Fighter Experimental (FX)" program. Faced with a formidable new American threat, the Soviet government immediately issued a request for a new fighter of their own to match the F-15, under the designation "Perspektivnyi Frontovi Istrebitel (PFI / Prospective Frontal Fighter)". The program was also apparently referred to as the "anti-F-15".

The PFI was specified as a long-range interceptor to replace older aircraft of that category, such as the Tupolev Tu-128 "Fiddler", the Sukhoi Su-15 "Flagon", and the Yak-28P "Firebar". As a secondary requirement, it was to be used as an escort for long-range strike aircraft such as the Su-24 "Fencer", or as a long-range intruder to attack Western air assets such as tankers or airborne warning & control systems (AWACS) deep in hostile territory.

The PFI requirements specified an agile aircraft with a top speed of 1,450 KPH (783 knots); a combat radius of 1,700 kilometers (916 nautical miles) at high altitude and 500 kilometers (270 nautical miles) at low altitude; and an operational ceiling of 18,300 meters (60,000 feet). The PFI was to be able to operate from what the Red Air Force (VVS) called a "Third Class Airfield", with a runway length of 1,200 meters (3,940 feet).

The Mikoyan and Sukhoi design bureaus (OKBs) both began work on the PFI specification. The Yakovlev OKB also initiated work on the requirement, but dropped out to pursue the Yak-141 vertical takeoff fighter. The Sukhoi design team was led by Yevgeny Ivanov and his deputy, Oleg Samolovich, with inputs from OKB Director General Pavel Sukhoi.

Following aerodynamic information provided by the TsAGI (Tsentral'nyi Aerogidrodynamichesky Institut / Central Aerodynamic & Hydrodynamic Research Institute), both the Sukhoi and MiG OKBs designed aircraft with a twin-finned, high-winged, tailed-delta configuration and using a new armament and fire-control system being implemented by other design bureaus. The main armament was to be the "K-25" missile, which was apparently similar to the US Sparrow, but in fact never reached production.

It soon became obvious that the agility and range requirements of the PFI specification were incompatible, and so, under the urging of MiG OKB Director General Artem Mikoyan, the PFI specification was split into "Logiky PFI (LPFI / Lightweight PFI)" and "Tyazholyi PFI (TPFI / Heavy PFI)" specifications.

This also mirrored American thinking, since the US Air Force had followed their F-15 program with a relatively low-cost "lightweight fighter" effort that resulted in the F-16 Fighting Falcon.

One of the designs the Mikoyan OKB had investigated proved suitable for the LPFI specification, and became the Mikoyan "MiG-29". The Sukhoi design proved a match for the HPFI specification, and was designated "T10", since it was the tenth delta ("Teugoinyi / Triangular") winged aircraft designed by the Sukhoi OKB.

The T10 was a big aircraft, with large volume for carrying fuel and systems, and its elegantly-curved wing was blended into the fuselage to improve lift. Long leading-edge root extensions (LERX) were fitted to allow good handling at high angles of attack. The twin fins provided maximum controllability and directional stability.

The T10 was a twin-engined aircraft, initially fitted with Saturn-Lyulka AL-21F-3 engines providing 11,200 kilograms (24,700 pounds) thrust each, with the intakes under the wing roots. The first T10, designated "T10-1" or "Blue 10", flew on 10 May 1977, with Sukhoi's chief test pilot, General Vladimir Ilyushin, at the controls.

Vladimir Ilyushin is the son of Sergei Ilyushin, who founded the Ilyushin OKB, but is a well-known and highly respected figure in his own right. The T10 was the 143rd aircraft he had piloted, including almost every Soviet type and even the B-25 Mitchell, the Cessna A-37, and the Northrop F-5E. Ilyushin was extremely pleased with the T10.

Blue 10 was immediately spotted by a US reconnaissance satellite, with NATO giving the new type the provisional name of "Ram-K", since Western intelligence did not know the name for the secret Zhukovsky flight center and simply referred to it as "Ramenskoye", a nearby town. Some overimaginative analysts thought it had variable geometry wings, and a few years would pass before that myth would be discarded.

Other analysts suggested that it was a copy of a Western aircraft, much to the irritation of the aircraft's designers. To be sure, the Ram-K had features similar to those of Western fighters that had preceded it, but those Western fighters in some cases had features of various Soviet fighters that had preceded them in turn. In reality, similar aerodynamic and mission requirements tended to lead to similar design solutions.

To an extent, however, the "copycat" accusation wasn't based completely on snobbery, since the USSR, particularly in Stalin's day, pragmatically did not hesitate to borrow, copy, or steal useful foreign technologies. In fact, the MiG and Sukhoi OKBs occasionally accused each other of copying as well, though similarities between their respective efforts were inevitable, as they were working from the same TsAGI aerodynamic recommendations.

The second T10 prototype, the "T10-2", was lost on 7 May 1978, with the pilot, Yevgeny Soloviev, killed while ejecting. A total of four prototypes were built by the Sukhoi OKB in the bureau's workshops, while five more were built at the state factory at Komsomolsk between 1980 and 1982. The state factory also provided subassemblies for the four prototypes developed at the Sukhoi workshops. As Western intelligence learned more about the aircraft, it was given the name of "Flanker-A".

The prototypes varied in detail, with two of those developed at the bureau workshops featuring production "AL-31" engines. Two more prototypes were under construction when the decision was made to redesign the aircraft, as tests showed the T10 prototypes were not meeting performance specifications. As the T10 stood, it was no match for the American F-15.

* The redesigned aircraft was designated the "T10S", with the "S" optimistically standing for "Series". Roughly ten T10S prototypes were produced, with some of them built new and some rebuilt from T10 prototypes. Initial T10S prototypes were similar to the T10, with incremental changes progressing through the series to the final production configuration.

The development effort continued to have more than its share of troubles. The first T10S prototype, the "T10S-1", rebuilt from the "T10-7", first flew on 20 April 1981 with Vladimir Ilyushin as pilot but was lost due to a fuel system problem, with Ilyushin ejecting safely.

The second prototype, the "T10S-2", rebuilt from the T10-12, broke up in flight on 23 December 1981, killing its pilot, Alexander Komarov. Another prototype, the "T10S-7", was wrecked when the pilot, Nikolai Sadovnikov, tried only too successfully to duplicate the fatal last flight of the T10S-2, but Sadovnikov managed to get the aircraft back down on the ground even though it had lost much of its left wing. It turned out that the two accidents were caused by defective leading-edge flaps that broke away. The flaps were promptly redesigned.

After these nasty teething problems were resolved, the test pilots were wildly enthusiastic about the performance and handling of the T10S, particularly in comparison to the T10. Unfortunately, after the flight problems of the aircraft were generally resolved, manufacturing problems remained. The production aircraft, designated "Su-27", only began to enter service in small numbers in 1986. NATO gave the production aircraft the designation "Flanker-B".

* While the manufacturing problems were being resolved, some of the prototypes were being used to set flight records. The "P-42" was converted from the T10S-3 by stripping it of all unnecessary equipment, and was used to successfully challenge records held by the similarly stripped-down F-15 "Streak Eagle". The flights were performed by Sukhoi test pilots Viktor Pugachev and Nikolai Sadovnikov. One of the flights set a record climb to 15,000 meters (49,200 feet) in 70.33 seconds, breaking the Streak Eagle's record by seven seconds.

This was cause for satisfaction, given the rocky path of the aircraft's development, and encouraged believers that the efforts would pay off after all. Another prototype, the "T10S-10", was stripped down and modified to challenge the 500 kilometer (270 nautical mile) closed circuit speed record, but it appears it was never actually used in such an attempt.

BACK_TO_TOP


[2] SU-27 INTO SERVICE
* The production Su-27 clearly retained much of the look of the original T10, but the changes were visible and obvious. The most apparent change was the adoption of a larger wing that featured straight edges, replacing the curved wing of the T10. Other visible changes included:


Moving the twin vertical tailplanes from positions directly atop the engines to just outboard of the engines.

Moving the nosewheel back behind the cockpit to reduce engine ingestion of debris during ground operations, and for the same reason installing inlet debris screens that retract and extend along with the landing gear.

Twin ventral fins.

A new "stinger" fuselage extension protruding backwards behind the engine exhaust.

A large airbrake behind the cockpit.
Of course, the production Su-27 had armament and operational avionics systems. Armament included:


A 30 millimeter Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 cannon firing from the top of the right LERX from just behind the cockpit, with typical rates of fire of 1,500 rounds per minute, ammunition storage of 149 rounds, and titanium skinning on the airframe around the gun muzzle.

Two stores pylons on each wing, plus wingtip rails for air-to-air missiles (AAMs).

Two centerline stores pylons in tandem between the engines.

A stores pylon on the outer corner of each engine nacelle.
In mature production aircraft, the wingtip rails could be removed and replaced with Sorbtsiya electronic countermeasures (ECM) pods, and some aircraft had three stores pylons on each wing, along with the wingtip rails.

An infrared track-&-search (IRST) sensor was fitted just in front of the cockpit along with a laser rangefinder, and the nose accommodated the "N-001" long-range radar system. In later production Su-27s, the tail stinger extension accommodated the tail radome for the "SPO-15 (L-006) Beryoza" radar homing and warning system (RHAWS), as well 32 three-shot chaff-flare dispensers. The stinger possibly also stored a jammer system.

The Su-27 was built mostly of light aluminum alloy, with some stainless steel and titanium. Flight controls were hydraulically operated, with some pneumatic backup systems. The nosewheel retracted forward, as did the main gear, rotating 90 degrees to lie flat in the wing roots. The pilot sat high with a good view in a Zvezda "K-36DM" zero-zero ejection seat. The ejection seat provided a "NAZ-8" survival pack, with rescue radio / beacon, rations, flares, medical supplies, and an inflatable raft.

The Su-27 was powered by twin Saturn-Lyulka AL-31F afterburning turbofans, with 12,515 kilograms (27,600 pounds) afterburning thrust each. The AL-31F was very reliable by Soviet engine standards, with a good time between overhaul of 1,000 hours, and the airframe allowed easy access to the engines.

SU-27 (LATE PRODUCTION):
_____________________ _________________ _______________________

spec metric english
_____________________ _________________ _______________________

wingspan 14.7 meters 48 feet 3 inches
length 21.9 meters 72 feet
height 5.93 meters 19 feet 6 inches

empty weight 16,380 kilograms 36,100 pounds
max loaded weight 28,300 kilograms 62,400 pounds

maximum speed 2,500 KPH 1,550 MPH / 1,350 KT
service ceiling 18,000 meters 59,000 feet
combat radius 1,500 kilometers 930 MI / 810 NMI
_____________________ _________________ _______________________


* Su-27s began to perform mock intercepts of Western aircraft over the Barents Sea in early 1987, though at first they kept their distance. However, Norwegian F-16 pilots soon managed to get pictures of the type, and in September 1987 the crew of a Norwegian P-3 Orion ocean-patrol aircraft got a much closer view than they liked when an Su-27 clumsily clipped one of the P-3's propellers with its tail. Fortunately, both aircraft made it safely back home.
The Su-27 made its formal introduction to the West at the 1989 Paris Air Show, when Viktor Pugachev ran the aircraft through the now-famous "Cobra" maneuver, lifting the fighter to an angle of attack of over 90 degrees to its line of flight, causing abrupt deceleration until it nosed back down. The Cobra maneuver was apparently invented by another Sukhoi test pilot, Valerii Menitsky, as a flight-test exercise, but it became associated with Pugachev, it seems with his encouragement, and is also often called the "Pugachev maneuver" or "Pugachev Cobra". Few aviation experts believe that the Cobra maneuver has much combat utility, but it is undeniably a spectacular airshow trick.

It still shocked Western observers, since there were few or no Western aircraft that could perform the Cobra maneuver, and even though it may have been nothing more than a stunt, it demonstrated that the Su-27 was remarkably agile and very strongly built. However, observers noted that an Su-27 fully loaded for combat operations would not have anywhere near such capabilities, and is likely not all that capable as a close-in dogfighter, unsurprising for a big aircraft designed as a long-range interceptor.

The Su-27's agility is still impressive given its size, all the more so because the Su-27 is not a "dynamically unstable" design. Western designers have chosen to build maneuverable aircraft by designing them to be aerodynamically unstable, and then using advanced control systems to keep them in the air. Russian designers, preferring reliability and with less access to sophisticated avionics systems, opted for building a stable design and tweaking it for maximum maneuverability.

The Su-27 was, as mentioned, originally developed as a long-range "fighter interceptor" for the VVS and the Soviet air defense command (PVO), and was largely optimized for this role. Typical air-defense warload could be six "beyond visual range (BVR)" missiles and two or four short-range "dogfighting" missiles. While the Su-27's standard BVR missile, the "R-27" or "AA-10 Alamo" in its NATO codename, is regarded as inferior to the US AIM-120 AMRAAM, the standard dogfighting missile, the "Vympel R-73 / AA-11 Archer", is regarded one of the best in its class.

The R-73 has an "off-boresight" engagement capability, with the pilot cueing it to a target not directly in front of the aircraft with a helmet-mounted sight. The helmet-mounted sight can also be used to cue the IRST and laser rangefinder. While the US was developing AMRAAM at great expense and difficulty, the Soviets moved ahead with the R-73, and now the Americans are trying to catch up with the "AIM-9X Sidewinder" AAM.

The Su-27's electronics systems are less sophisticated than those of equivalent Western aircraft, and there are questions about their reliability, but the IRST has good tracking capability and the radar has excellent range, However, the radar does not have processing sophistication of Western counterparts. In the air-defense role, the Su-27 is designed to operate in conjunction with ground or air-based air-defense networks, a traditional Soviet practice, and the Su-27 has a datalink to allow it to perform intercepts "passively", without using its own radar.

Although the reliability of the Su-27's electronics may be uncertain, Russian partisans like to mock Western aircraft for their delicate mechanical nature and inability to operate off of rough airstrips. The rugged Su-27 was designed for such an environment and has no difficulty with it.

The large size of the Su-27 makes it useful as a strike aircraft, able to carry a wide range of munitions, but strike is a secondary mission for the basic Su-27. A reasonable judgement of the Su-27 would place it as superlative in its role as a fighter-interceptor, but probably not the equal of the F-15 as a multirole aircraft.

* By the way, the Su-27 has no formal name. Sukhoi says the aircraft is referred to as the "Azure Lighting", but it appears that it is generally called the "Crane", for its bent-necked appearance in flight. Some sources claim that Russian personnel occasionally even refer to it by its NATO codename, "Flanker".

BACK_TO_TOP


[3] TWO-SEAT SU-27UB / EXPORT SU-27SK / NAVAL SU-27K
* The Su-27 is a big and complicated aircraft that demands much of its pilots, and so during T10 and T10S development the Sukhoi OKB also worked on a two-seat operational trainer version. Due to the development difficulties discussed earlier, work on the two-seat version had to be set aside until the single-seat version was in production, and the first two-seat T10U prototype did not fly until March 1985, entering production and service as the Sukhoi "Su-27UB" a year or two later. While initial prototypes were built in Sukhoi OKB facilities in Moscow and Komsomolsk, full production was transferred to a state factory in Irkutsk.

The Su-27UB has a tandem seats under a single canopy, with the back seat stepped up above the front seat, providing the flight instructor in the back seat a good view of both the world in front of the aircraft and of what the trainee in the front seat is doing. Sukhoi engineers like to point out that the view from the rear seat is much superior to that from the rear of two-seat F-15s. This arrangement gives the Su-27UB an even more "crane-necked" appearance than the Su-27.



The second seat was accommodated by stretching the fuselage, and the vertical tailfins were increased in height slightly to compensate for the changed aerodynamics. The Su-27UB was designed to be fully combat capable. Addition of the second seat increased the weight of the aircraft by only about 1,120 kilograms (2,470 pounds) without reduction in fuel capacity, and aside from minor increases in runway requirement and comparably minor decreases in top speed, the Su-27UB's performance is very similar to that of the single-seat Su-27. Like the single-seat Su-27, early production Su-27UBs lack certain systems and features of late-production aircraft.

* The late-production single-seat Su-27 was used as the basis for the export variant, the "Su-27SK" (where "SK" stands for "Series Kommercial"). While the Su-27SK is externally all but identical to the Su-27, it has a downgraded system fit. A two-seat "Su-27UBK" was also built for the export market.

The Chinese were the first export customer for the Su-27, signing a contract in 1991 for 24 Su-27SKs and 2 Su-27UBKs, with initial deliveries in 1992. The Chinese bought another batch of exactly the same number and types of aircraft in 1995, and in 1996 the Chinese signed a license agreement to allow them to produce up to 200 Su-27s of their own. The license agreement apparently stipulates that they cannot export the type, which has the Chinese designation of "J-11".

In 1999, the Chinese ordered 40 "Su-30MKK" multirole combat aircraft, which feature a new radar and fire-control system. The Su-30 variants are discussed in more detail later. Initial delivery of a batch of ten took place in December 2000.

In the mid-1990s, Vietnam, not to be outdone by their ancient Chinese rival, also bought a number of Su-27s. Syria, Algeria, Iran, and Libya have expressed various levels of interest in obtaining the type as well. Of course, a number of Su-27s were "inherited" by some of the newly independent states, such as Belarus and Kazakhstan, created by the collapse of the USSR, but these were not export variants.

* The Soviet Navy had planned to acquire four fleet aircraft carriers, and so accordingly planned to build navalized versions of the MiG-29 and Su-27 for carrier operations.

Work on a navalized Su-27 actually went back almost to the very beginning of the design of the Su-27 family. T10S prototypes were modified to test features of navalized variants in an incremental fashion. The first test flights, from a dummy land-based carrier deck at Saki in the Crimea, featured aircraft fitted with with small canard wings for better low-speed approach, improved short takeoff performance, and enhanced combat maneuverability. Tests then went on to aircraft fitted with arresting gear, and then to tests of aircraft with carrier landing systems.

The carriers were to be fitted with "ski-jump" takeoff ramps, rather than catapults, and one of these navalized Su-27 prototypes made an initial takeoff from a land-based ski jump in August 1982. In operational practice, the aircraft was to take off a carrier deck by building up full thrust against a tilt-up blast deflector panel until the aircraft sheared restraints holding it down to the deck. The fighter would then accelerate up the deck and be tossed into the air with the ski-jump.

This unusual scheme was devised because the Soviets had no experience in building aircraft carrier catapults, and didn't want to delay introduction of the carriers while puzzling around with a new and demanding technology.

These modified prototypes led to specific prototypes for the navalized aircraft, designated "T10K". These aircraft had canards, an arresting hook, and carrier landing systems, as well as a retractable inflight refueling probe to allow the aircraft to take off with a reduced fuel load and top off in flight. However, they did not have the ruggedized landing gear required for carrier landings, and lacked folding wings. Pugachev flew the first T10K in August 1987, though that particular aircraft was lost in a mishap in 1988.

The production navalized "Su-27K" featured the required heavier landing gear and folding wings, with drooping outer ailerons and inner double-slotted flaps for low-speed carrier approaches. It began carrier trials on board the carrier TBILSI in November 1989, again with Pugachev at the controls, leading to introduction to formal carrier operations in September 1991.

A batch of 18 Su-27Ks were built in 1982 and 1983, though abandonment of plans for the four-carrier force in the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR meant that the need for building more Su-27Ks vanished. The KUZNETZOV, as the TBILISI had been renamed after the end of the Soviet Union, made a cruise in the Mediterranean in 1996, giving the Su-27K its first taste of ocean operations. NATO assigned the Su-27K the codename "Flanker-D", while the Sukhoi OKB calls the aircraft the "Su-33".

MiG 31
01-14-2006, 04:52 PM
I don't believe it until I see the aircraft with my own two eyes, the MiG-29's we have so far can carry R-27R1 missiles and R-73E missiles. The new ones that got upgraded by Russia will be carrying R-77 BVR missile and I have no doubt in my mind there will be radar upgrades of course to the N-019.

Reza6662
02-08-2006, 01:23 PM
Iran's Su-27s are under Iran's Unclear Operations. Until Iran would don't accept Eurpean countries offers about the Unclear operation, this fighters don't be in Iran Air force.

lulldapull
02-08-2006, 01:39 PM
Guys, Iran doesnot have any Su-27's in its inventory! if Iran got a substantial number of the Su-27/30 series, it will be a quantum leap as far as upgrades go! Iran should lobby Russia for as many as 100 Su-30's immediately, to start replacing older types in service like the F-4D/E, F-7M, F-5E etc..etc..

Musa a.s.
02-08-2006, 01:41 PM
Thats a shame because besides stealth fighting aircraft, that one(Su-27) is the best defense against Israeli and U.S. fighter/bombers.

persian armed forces
02-08-2006, 02:31 PM
Guys, Iran doesnot have any Su-27's in its inventory! if Iran got a substantial number of the Su-27/30 series, it will be a quantum leap as far as upgrades go! Iran should lobby Russia for as many as 100 Su-30's immediately, to start replacing older types in service like the F-4D/E, F-7M, F-5E etc..etc..

I agree with you lulldapull

Iran need to order large number of SU30m or SU 30mki as soon as possible or we have to say good bye to, Good old iranian Air force

E.g

http://www.combataircraft.com/aircraft/fsu30_p_02_l.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/aeromil-yf/Garuda_2_SU_30_TAX_DSC_0013.jpg

Su30mki- 60 or 40 with licenced Production up to 120


http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/s300pmu.jpg
S300PMU SA-10 Grumble_ about 8 set ( these babes will kick ass)

http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/s300v.jpg
S300V SA-12 Giant _ 10 set , these for cruise or balistic missile

Snauhi
02-08-2006, 02:33 PM
Where will Iran get the money from? Btw Russia is under pressure now so dont expect to get that advanced weapons.

isr agent
02-08-2006, 02:38 PM
Ahhh su27, what a beautiful beast :)

lulldapull
02-08-2006, 03:11 PM
Where will Iran get the money from? Btw Russia is under pressure now so dont expect to get that advanced weapons.

Iran has tons of money! With the inflated price of oil these last few years, the country has made tens of billions! besides Iran earns somewhere between $30-$40 billion from the export and or refining of petro-chemical products. You guys in Israel live out on Uncle Sam's hand outs, or the welfare checks and donations from world jewry, funnelled into your illegal country just to sustain it.:rolleyes:

P.S. I wouldn't worry too much about Russian reluctance on supplying the Sukhoi to Iran. Why??? Because out of no where recently the IRIAF has incorporated no less than 30-40 Mig-29M's into its operational inventory.:eek: And you wonder how that happened??:D :D

Hint hint...oink oink....Looks like the (apparently large batch) of defecting Mig-29B's that flew in from Iraq, have been secretly upgraded by the Russians to the mig-29M/ SMT standard, along with Iran's original inventory of 40 or so Mig-29B's/UB's aswell. All IRIAF mig's now have bolt on type Aerial refueling probes, R-77 capability, upgraded N-019M and new IRST slaved to the latest R-73E's and/ or the R-27TE-1's. That is a decent upgrade....don't you think...

Shohad
02-08-2006, 03:32 PM
I heard the price of oil decreased recently to around the 65$ p\b :)

Musa a.s.
02-08-2006, 05:16 PM
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/aeromil-yf/Garuda_2_SU_30_TAX_DSC_0013.jpg

Su30mki- 60 or 40 with licenced Production up to 120
Is that an Italian one???

korosh_kabir
02-08-2006, 05:18 PM
I heard the price of oil decreased recently to around the 65$ p\b :)
that is good to, after war time our oil was round 10 dollar and even then we was gonig forward so 65 is good for ous.

persian armed forces
02-08-2006, 05:32 PM
Is that an Italian one???

is not italian flanker U stupid,

Is Indian Su30
wake up read some book

Musa a.s.
02-08-2006, 06:23 PM
is not italian flanker U stupid,

Is Indian Su30
wake up read some book
If you got a problem take it to the PM or E mail otherwise I'd seriously suggest you watch your mouth when responding to me.

lulldapull
02-08-2006, 09:23 PM
Actually those pics are from the latest IAF/ French AF exercises dubbed 'Garuda'

The IAF's MK-1 Flankers (Not even the MKI's) performed excellent against the French Mirage-2000-5's!

The Sukhoi is right now (save for the Raptor which is really a 5th Gen. machine) the top dog operational anywhere on this planet. During the Cope India and Sindex exercises, the MK-1 Flankers consistently out performed SAF/ USAF/ French AF jets. The F-15's, F-16 Block 52's all lost in simulated aircombat to the Sukhoi's.:)

I don't think the West would allow Putin to sell these beasts to Iran so easily. They will put a lot of pressure on Russia, because the Sukhoi would effectively neutralise any advantage the West has viz a viz air power.

If Iran got a hold of these Flankers, the IRIAF will reclaim its lost glory.

Here's an article I have scanned for you guys:

http://home.gwu.edu/~adit/page1.jpg
http://home.gwu.edu/~adit/page2.jpg
http://home.gwu.edu/~adit/page3.jpg
http://home.gwu.edu/~adit/page4.jpg
http://home.gwu.edu/~adit/page5.jpg
http://home.gwu.edu/~adit/page6.jpg

Snauhi
02-09-2006, 12:06 AM
No, pilots are more important then aircraft and there is no better pilots in the world then US and Israeli onces.. And belive me 30 MIG's cant to much... Russia is under pressure so they cant just sell there newest aircraft

irandefender
02-09-2006, 03:23 PM
No, pilots are more important then aircraft and there is no better pilots in the world then US and Israeli onces.. And belive me 30 MIG's cant to much... Russia is under pressure so they cant just sell there newest aircraft

nice dream. do all people from israel dream this much

Shohad
02-09-2006, 03:27 PM
nice dream. do all people from israel dream this much
"You can say that i'm a dreamer, but i'm not the only one".

Prove him wrong, this is what he believes, period.

Arman
02-09-2006, 03:42 PM
Once our nuke program becomes accepted, no one will have any prob selling us anything. Russia is being a ****** right now, but that'll change. Buying jets from them right now will not be worth it, unless they sign to deliver parts even if there are sanctions on Iran.

korosh_kabir
02-09-2006, 03:42 PM
No, pilots are more important then aircraft and there is no better pilots in the world then US and Israeli onces.. And belive me 30 MIG's cant to much... Russia is under pressure so they cant just sell there newest aircraft
everybody think the best of their country.

4X-IL
02-09-2006, 03:53 PM
Well no
it is not Snauhi wet dream, this is just true.

You think that in the second Iran get Su's than HUIPE! thats it, iran is undefeatable?
You know how much time it takes to train a pilot to be actually good with the aircraft he's flying?
The Israel Air Force never lost a modern war ( without the shutting down of 85 Mig 21 and Mig 23 while the peace for the galil operation, which all shot down in two days with 0 loses to the IAF ) or an joint exercise with the USMC ( which was embarrassment to the USMC after the ratio of 1:14 to the IAF which flew with F16A againts F-14D's and F18C's ).

irandefender
02-09-2006, 03:58 PM
Well no
it is not Snauhi wet dream, this is just true.

You think that in the second Iran get Su's than HUIPE! thats it, iran is undefeatable?
You know how much time it takes to train a pilot to be actually good with the aircraft he's flying?
The Israel Air Force never lost a modern war ( without the shutting down of 85 Mig 21 and Mig 23 while the peace for the galil operation, which all shot down in two days with 0 loses to the IAF ) or an joint exercise with the USMC ( which was embarrassment to the USMC after the ratio of 1:14 to the IAF which flew with F16A againts F-14D's and F18C's ).

so your back i thought your gone, anyways you think iranian pilots are stupid like israelies their smart and it wont take that long to learn

4X-IL
02-09-2006, 04:02 PM
so your back i thought your gone, anyways you think iranian pilots are stupid like israelies their smart and it wont take that long to learn


No i do not think Iranian pilots are stupid.
the opposite is the correct.
i think and i'm SURE iranian pilots are very smart people, probably smarter than alot of other western countrys air force.
but do you think a pilots that flew an F-4 or F-14 from the late 60's, can just enter 3-4 generation aircraft and become a super pilot in weeks?
well THATS a DREAM
it will be a waste of money to the IRIAF, it takes years to become a good pilot in the aircraft you suppose to fly, and years you don't have, nor the Aircrafts.

irandefender
02-09-2006, 04:04 PM
No i do not think Iranian pilots are stupid.
the opposite is the correct.
i think and i'm SURE iranian pilots are very smart people, probably smarter than alot of other western countrys air force.
but do you think a pilots that flew an F-4 or F-14 from the late 60's, can just enter 3-4 generation aircraft and become a super pilot in weeks?
well THATS a DREAM
it will be a waste of money to the IRIAF, it takes years to become a good pilot in the aircraft you suppose to fly, and years you don't have, nor the Aircrafts.

your compeletly wrong

isr agent
02-09-2006, 04:23 PM
4X-IL, i believe thats only the model in the IAF, thats what i think makes it so good.

korosh_kabir
02-09-2006, 05:04 PM
Well no
it is not Snauhi wet dream, this is just true.

You think that in the second Iran get Su's than HUIPE! thats it, iran is undefeatable?
You know how much time it takes to train a pilot to be actually good with the aircraft he's flying?
The Israel Air Force never lost a modern war ( without the shutting down of 85 Mig 21 and Mig 23 while the peace for the galil operation, which all shot down in two days with 0 loses to the IAF ) or an joint exercise with the USMC ( which was embarrassment to the USMC after the ratio of 1:14 to the IAF which flew with F16A againts F-14D's and F18C's ).
according to tom cooper iran has the one of highest ratio. one iranian pilot was better then 5 iraqi migs.

lulldapull
02-09-2006, 05:46 PM
For these israeli's/ Americans who doubt that the IRIAF cannot master the Flanker ina relatively short time and who believe that Iranian pilots are bad, here is a real eye opener:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_212.shtml

Note: All entries in Green are confirmed kills! FYI The ACIG database is by far the nets most respected Aircombat information group!

:)

Capricorn Edge
02-10-2006, 10:16 AM
Instead of Su-27s or Su-30s, i think it would be best if Iran buys Su-35s and Su-37s even if Iran has to pay 30% more off the original prices because these jets can defend Iran's airspace easily. A fleet of 64 Su-35s and 28 Su-37s will help IRIAF and IRGCAF shoot down F-15E, F-16C, and other jets.

admin
02-10-2006, 12:05 PM
No, pilots are more important then aircraft and there is no better pilots in the world then US and Israeli onces.. And belive me 30 MIG's cant to much... Russia is under pressure so they cant just sell there newest aircraft

British pilots are very good too, so are the Japanese and German pilots actually.

No i do not think Iranian pilots are stupid.
the opposite is the correct.
i think and i'm SURE iranian pilots are very smart people, probably smarter than alot of other western countrys air force.
but do you think a pilots that flew an F-4 or F-14 from the late 60's, can just enter 3-4 generation aircraft and become a super pilot in weeks?
well THATS a DREAM
it will be a waste of money to the IRIAF, it takes years to become a good pilot in the aircraft you suppose to fly, and years you don't have, nor the Aircrafts.

Have you forgotten the first and second Israeli arab war? Israeli planes were worthless, yet they managed air superiority in years. It's todo with the quality of pilots, noone can judge Iranian pilots because the havn't had the chance to prove themselves, in iran iraq war they obviously came out on top, but the current pilots can't be judged!

Instead of Su-27s or Su-30s, i think it would be best if Iran buys Su-35s and Su-37s even if Iran has to pay 30% more off the original prices because these jets can defend Iran's airspace easily. A fleet of 64 Su-35s and 28 Su-37s will help IRIAF and IRGCAF shoot down F-15E, F-16C, and other jets.

America wouldn't allow France to even sell Iran the airbus, what makes you think such a deal would happen between Iran and Russia? If Iran manages to buy 100 SU25 they should count themselves lucky, SU35 is merely an Iranian pilots dream.

Shohad
02-10-2006, 02:18 PM
In terms of aircrafts, Israel actually managed to stay updated all the time (with armor things were different).

The Czech made massers (WWII 109’s) which were not much worse than the Arab equivalents.

In 1967 Israel had the good French made mirage planes.

In air fights, you can't stay behind. Newer planes out-perform F-4's and F-14's in all aspects. The Iranian pilots cuold be shot down before they can engage in a dogfight.

admin
02-10-2006, 02:41 PM
lol, the last thing Israel wants is a dog fight, even if Iran does kamakazi style fighting Israel will lose! They don't have the fuel to afford to be intercepted in the air and make it back to israel alive!

Shohad
02-10-2006, 03:17 PM
Yeah that is probably true, but the Israeli pilots are masters in dogfights because every fight in Israeli skys is a dogfight, lol. It takes 20 minutes on a jet to cross the country.

rezz35
02-11-2006, 07:42 AM
Yeah that is probably true, but the Israeli pilots are masters in dogfights because every fight in Israeli skys is a dogfight, lol. It takes 20 minutes on a jet to cross the country.
Your power is from U.S.A please go to underground to live becouse my messile
is very strong (70 shahab messile is ready to attack isreal in first time)

Aimster
02-11-2006, 08:21 AM
I'm Iranian

Israeli's air force > Iran's air force

Don't worry

When the mullahs die

Iran's air force > Israel's air force

but the mullahs have to die

Shohad
02-11-2006, 08:22 AM
Your power is from U.S.A please go to underground to live becouse my messile
is very strong (70 shahab messile is ready to attack isreal in first time)
OK.........

Shohad
02-11-2006, 08:23 AM
I'm Iranian

Israeli's air force > Iran's air force

Don't worry

When the mullahs die

Iran's air force > Israel's air force

but the mullahs have to die
If Iran is a friendly democracy I would support it too.

rezz35
02-11-2006, 08:28 AM
If Iran is a friendly democracy I would support it too.
Democracy is very good for Isreal tath have 5 milion arab but ......

Shohad
02-11-2006, 09:11 AM
Democracy is very good for Isreal tath have 5 milion arab but ......
OK.........

Reza6662
02-11-2006, 09:18 AM
Your power is from U.S.A please go to underground to live becouse my messile
is very strong (70 shahab messile is ready to attack isreal in first time)
Iran and Israel have co-enemy=Arabs
Therfore it is better to have a friendly realtionship with Israel.
Unfortunatly a few of Iran poeple are wrong and think USA and Israel are enemy of Iran.
Israel send to Iran many lack of F-4s and F-14s since Iraq war. :D
Therfore it is better for Iran to fire the missiles toward Arabs and Talibans.

attitude
02-11-2006, 09:24 AM
Iran should definetely begin License production of the Su-30mkk immediately. This would give their already superb aviation capabilities a significant boost and would give added expertise in maintaining and upgrading their current fighters. With full license production they could cut the need for imported parts and become fully self sufficient just like they have with the F-14. The work they have done producing several new versions of the F-5 series is awesome but more money should be commited into expanding these designs and incorporating new technology. Iran should set about to covertly aquire U.S fighters the same way the U.S aquire's Russian fighters. Venezuala is about to need to sell their F-16's and even though they are obsolete block - 15 models, pulling a few apart and studying them would definetely help any indigenous fighter projects now and in the future. It is claimed that Iran can now assemble a new F-14 out of spare parts. If this is true then why not set up a production line and churn out new upgraded versions and finally replace the old one's. Iran has one of the best airforce's in the world and their combet record is awesome. An Iranian F-5 even managed to down an Iraqi Mig-25 and that says something about the pilots and training. The Su-30Mkk should be ordered immediately, at least 100 or more and license production should be obtained. The Su-30mkk is one of the best all round fighters on earth and in a recent exercise in India, it is reported that the U.S F-15's were outclassed by the Indian Su-30mkk's. The F-22 Raptor is a scary aircraft and is going to be hard to kill but its also expensive ($180 million U.S) so they wont be produced in the numbers of the F-15. Iran needs to retire the F-4 and re-equipe with the Su-30mkk, build the F-14 in country if they are able. Get license production for the Su-30mkk and S-300 sam if possible and purchase large numbers of Tor-M1 and various other russian sams plus continue building their own in country on a increased level. If Iran is going to repel a U.S attack they need to act quickly and modernise their Air defenses asap.

rezz35
02-11-2006, 09:32 AM
I want to have a good relations , the most part of Isrealians is Iranian but
they have forgotten their lasts and I don't understand thier reasons.

Reza6662
02-11-2006, 02:42 PM
Russia is not good with Iran. For example they are not selling to Iran Mig-29 parts. I had worked in Tabriz TBF for a few months. Now you say Iran should definetely begin License production of the Su-30mkk immediately.
This is impossible and like be a joke.
No countries sells to Iran fighter(s). Chine only sold to Iran old and weak and garbage fighetrs: F-6 and F-7 that can us only for Demo in Army Day (22 Sep).

meteor
02-11-2006, 03:00 PM
Russia is not good with Iran. For example they are not selling to Iran Mig-29 parts. I had worked in Tabriz TBF for a few months.

I don't know what you did in Tabriz...but especially the Mig-29 has very short refurbishment intervals. A long as Russia doesn't sell parts or Iran isn't able to produce spare parts by its own, no Mig should be operational by now.
In fact there where press releases that (as part of the 1billion$ TOR-M1 deal) Iran an Russia are negotiating about upgadring of Mig-29 and Su-24.

Reza6662
02-11-2006, 03:10 PM
I was Army Soldier (Officer) in Ministry of War. My work was accounting about price of F-5's repair and refine and other things.

lulldapull
02-11-2006, 03:58 PM
I agree with Metor here....If Russia quit supplying spares for all of Iran's T-72's, S-300's, Kilo Subs, Mig-29's and a dozen other things, than Iran's defence forces will cease to exist! They will be left with only Shah's 35 year old rotting equipment. Somehow I find that hard to believe!:rolleyes:

extern
02-11-2006, 05:40 PM
I agree with Metor here....If Russia quit supplying spares for all of Iran's T-72's, S-300's, Kilo Subs, Mig-29's and a dozen other things, than Iran's defence forces will cease to exist! They will be left with only Shah's 35 year old rotting equipment. Somehow I find that hard to believe!:rolleyes:
Why Russia will quit supply spares if Iran is its traditionally ally??? Even for China it has not stop supply the spares for their army when the chinese have start to sleep with the americans in 70-80th.

But the gloom reality is that the needs of the iranian forces was a long time was neglected. Now the some batchs of Su-27's will not help against the massive anglo-american&NATO&Israel aviation - some hundreds of planes. Unless Chinese, Indian or Russian forces come to help, and that possibility should be avoid.

The real answer - the echeloned contry's SAM system against both the aircraft and tactical missiles. System like that must be built steps by steps: short range first, thus - the medial range and the long range (S-300) at the end. Only a system like this can threaten by unacceptable loss for agressor's aviation and to preserve the IrAF for counter-strike possibility.

First of all, I thimk, the iranians a long time was related on the Allah Almights only, and have neglected a bit their own might. Now u guys must to work hard to close the gap. Nevertheless, the buiseness go ahead, and now in Iran the production of licensioned russian developed Igla missiles have started:

http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/9372/118411170195l6001oi.th.jpg (http://img335.imageshack.us/my.php?image=118411170195l6001oi.jpg) http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/9504/28411170195l6005bm.th.jpg (http://img424.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28411170195l6005bm.jpg) http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/8901/48411170195l6005lo.th.jpg (http://img357.imageshack.us/my.php?image=48411170195l6005lo.jpg) http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6181/58411170195l6009jr.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=58411170195l6009jr.jpg) http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7707/88411170195l6003xh.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=88411170195l6003xh.jpg) http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1426/68411170195l6007fr.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=68411170195l6007fr.jpg)

The first batalion of short range Tor-M1 SAM's also is over the hill... After that the long range S-300 or at least the improved version of S-200 is highly recommended before u gonna deploy any new&expencive aircrafts on ur airfields safly. Just my two pences...

PS. I was pretty impressed by the just iranian struggle against ugly european islamophobia and humiliation of religeous feeling. I mean the current cartoon issue...

MiG 31
02-11-2006, 09:40 PM
umm...extern...what Igla missles?.

lulldapull
02-11-2006, 10:30 PM
umm...extern...what Igla missles?.

The Misagh-2 is actually a liscenced copy of the Russian Igla Manpad!:)

MiG 31
02-11-2006, 10:35 PM
The Misagh-2 is actually a liscenced copy of the Russian Igla Manpad!:)

?....?....?....where did it say such things:confused:

lulldapull
02-11-2006, 11:22 PM
?....?....?....where did it say such things:confused:

Aagha jaan, Misagh-2 is identical looking to the Igla Shoulder launched ManPad! Almost identical looking. I can post pictures!

but more importantly whats interesting is the Russian commitment to strengthen Iran's defences, just in case!;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SA-16_and_SA-18_missiles_and_launchers.jpg

MiG 31
02-11-2006, 11:55 PM
Aagha jaan, Misagh-2 is identical looking to the Igla Shoulder launched ManPad! Almost identical looking. I can post pictures!

but more importantly whats interesting is the Russian commitment to strengthen Iran's defences, just in case!;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SA-16_and_SA-18_missiles_and_launchers.jpg

yes, your right, they do indeed look somewhat the same but doesn't QW-2 look the same as both of them as well yet it's still different than other two. If it was built under license than we would be building them on our own but with few numbers. Now, if it's mass production than that's when it's built indegniously. Just to clear things up more a bit you can read the article yourself my freind.:D

Iran’s defense minister launched the domestic mass production of a new shoulder-fired air defense missile Feb. 5, a development presented as a major boost for the Islamic republic’s armed forces.

The defense ministry said in a statement faxed to AFP that the Misagh 2 missile was “capable of tracking and destroying aerial targets that fly at low altitudes and in the blind spot of radar systems”.

The ministry said the “advanced missile” could also be used for “electronic warfare”.

..........

Iran is already believed to possess older Soviet-made SA-7 shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems, as well as several other high altitude SAM systems.

The country is also thought to have laid its hands on U.S. Stinger missiles supplied to Afghan anti-Soviet fighters during the 1980s, and defense analysts say Iran may have worked out how to produce its own equivalent.

Such devices are useful in forcing aircraft to fly at higher altitudes — and therefore in the view of radar systems and prone to interception or attack by ground-based systems.

In December, Russia also agreed to sell Iran 29 TOR M1 mobile surface-to-air missile defense systems in a deal criticized by the United States.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1515620&C=mideast

attitude
02-12-2006, 03:23 AM
Some helo's and fighters we id'e love Iran to have

attitude
02-12-2006, 03:36 AM
http://www.irandefence.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=265&stc=1&d=1139736821
http://www.irandefence.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=266&stc=1&d=1139736821
http://www.irandefence.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=268&stc=1&d=1139736821
http://www.irandefence.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=269&stc=1&d=1139736821

Capricorn Edge
02-12-2006, 11:20 AM
If Iran don't have Su-27, then IRIAF cannot defend the nation's nuclear reactors. Sad, but true, because previous Prez Khatami don't wanna buy Su-27s and Su-30s, so Iranian make mistake and will cost Iran dear in the oncoming war on Iran.............

lulldapull
02-13-2006, 05:35 PM
Capricorn! You are right. Had the IRIAF inducted the Su-27/30 a decade ago, and had around 200 or so in service, the IRIAF would have been in a much better position! This is a huge mistake by the iranian high command, and they should be held reponsible for the IRIAF being so weak right now!:mad:

Hoosier34
02-13-2006, 10:39 PM
I think Iran is actually smart by not buying aircraft that will not help them. No matter what the buzz on the net, or press say. Russian/chinese radars are not as effective as Wetern, particulary United States types. Reason being in most cases, computers. The West is way ahead of the Russians/chinese in terms of military computers able to track targets, identify targets. Not to mention the computers ability to automatically employ or breakthru ECM.

Iran uses the F14 tomcats they have at the moment as a sort of make do Awacs plane. They use them for battlefield management. This is very smart. Because you can have 1000 planes but without command and control, and without defence against radar jamming ect they are gonna be 1000 dead aircraft. Dogfighting doesnt even really come into play that much anymore. It happens but its not all that common. Plus nobody is gonna say the Israelis or the US has less combat experience then the Iranians. So I think Iran is on the right track in regards to its air defence. Not that I woudl want them to beat or kill US or Israeli pilots!! But by using smaller numbers of aircraft, saving theyre money and putting it towards more Sams/AA guns, RAdars, and using there smaller number of aircraft smarter then Iraq did they are alot more capable then theyre numbers look. I think they are more capable as is then if they had 200 SU 27s and didnt have the same type of command control system that integrates theyre current forces and ground defences as it does. They wouldnt be able to have 200 SU27s and still retain what they have on the ground.

Cya
BRad

Musa a.s.
02-14-2006, 12:51 AM
I agree but I think I disagree as well. Iraq didn't put near enough of its fighters in the air even if the would get shot down. A well trained fighter group that should be used to war games(practices) with super-nations(U.S.A.F. Red Flag excersises) can influence the tide of a military engagement. Russia has capable radar and command and control, but mostly only they posses it for themselves and they don't readilly offer it to the world market. If Iran had split second notice Air Force like the U.S.A.F. and capable pilots as well as aircraft. An outside assault would'nt be too easy to accomplish except when averting our(U.S.) satallite imaging and radar, connected to Warships(missileships) and AWACS planes. Speaking of that Iran should have a small fleet of those, like from China or maybe even from ANC run South Africa.http://www.navy.mil.za/equipment/patrol.htm http://www.navy.mil.za/equipment/valour.htm

lulldapull
02-14-2006, 08:38 AM
I think Iran is actually smart by not buying aircraft that will not help them. No matter what the buzz on the net, or press say. Russian/chinese radars are not as effective as Wetern, particulary United States types. Reason being in most cases, computers. The West is way ahead of the Russians/chinese in terms of military computers able to track targets, identify targets. Not to mention the computers ability to automatically employ or breakthru ECM.

Iran uses the F14 tomcats they have at the moment as a sort of make do Awacs plane. They use them for battlefield management. This is very smart. Because you can have 1000 planes but without command and control, and without defence against radar jamming ect they are gonna be 1000 dead aircraft. Dogfighting doesnt even really come into play that much anymore. It happens but its not all that common. Plus nobody is gonna say the Israelis or the US has less combat experience then the Iranians. So I think Iran is on the right track in regards to its air defence. Not that I woudl want them to beat or kill US or Israeli pilots!! But by using smaller numbers of aircraft, saving theyre money and putting it towards more Sams/AA guns, RAdars, and using there smaller number of aircraft smarter then Iraq did they are alot more capable then theyre numbers look. I think they are more capable as is then if they had 200 SU 27s and didnt have the same type of command control system that integrates theyre current forces and ground defences as it does. They wouldnt be able to have 200 SU27s and still retain what they have on the ground.

Cya
BRad

Bhuwaaaaaaaaaahhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa.:D :D

Brad......just drop it man...:D :D

Stick to supporting jews! Thats what you are good at. leave these defence related topics to us.....;)

Snauhi
02-14-2006, 10:08 AM
Bhuwaaaaaaaaaahhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa.:D :D

Brad......just drop it man...:D :D

Stick to supporting jews! Thats what you are good at. leave these defence related topics to us.....;)

Prove him wrong

lulldapull
02-14-2006, 10:20 AM
Prove him wrong

Snauhi, you ignorant buffoon, there is no substitute on earth for a competant and effective AF! if the IRIAf had 200 Flankers with Bars Radar on them, then the Iranians would have trashed their Shah era junk a long time ago! There is no comparison between the worthless APG-66 or the APG-68 on the F-15/16 and the Phazatron Bars on the Sukhoi's MKI!

Didn't you read the article I posted on the Elmendorf based F-15C's of the ALaskan ANG that were outclassed by the Indian Su-30MKI's during 'Cope India'???:rolleyes:

The APG-66v1/2 on the F-15C/E sucks! it was totally ineffective in those exercises! The F-15 is an old airframe, it ha sa huge RCS due to its non stealthy and very boxy airframe! Its past its prime, and needs to be replaced by the F-22/ JSF. The Su-30 MK Flanker will shoot down the F-15 or F-16's now! Its the most powerful warplane out there right now!

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-iaf-usaf-su30-f15-article01.html

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-cope-india-vayu.html

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f16-f18-su30-1.html

Snauhi
02-14-2006, 10:49 AM
Its a matter of pilot and not aircraft..

lulldapull
02-14-2006, 10:59 AM
Its a matter of pilot and not aircraft..

Snauhi little twerp! Now quit changing the subject before i bust you in the ass right here in front of everyone! ( And no **** sherlock, we all know pilots are important as is their training).....And we also know that if you fly in a junky ass F-16 against an F-22, you will be shot down...No matter how well trained your ass is!

Now getting back to why I believe the Su-30 is a superior platform that the F-15...here's more:

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

Read up and get educated ....'Snauhi'....:rolleyes:

Snauhi
02-14-2006, 11:13 AM
There is no proof that its better, they havent been in combat yet,

lulldapull
02-14-2006, 11:25 AM
There is no proof that its better, they havent been in combat yet,

These series of exercises which the Indian AF has had with USAF/ French AF and Singapore AF over the last few years have been the closest to actual combat the Sukhoi's have had with various Western types. In all of these exercises the Sukhoi has convincingly proved itself to be a better platform! you can deny that...but thats your choice......:rolleyes:

Snauhi
02-14-2006, 11:31 AM
These series of exercises which the Indian AF has had with USAF/ French AF and Singapore AF over the last few years have been the closest to actual combat the Sukhoi's have had with various Western types. In all of these exercises the Sukhoi has convincingly proved itself to be a better platform! you can deny that...but thats your choice......:rolleyes:

Its an exericse, i will say that they are quale untill they will meet each other in combat

4X-IL
02-14-2006, 12:05 PM
Well will you say is better
F-16A or F14D?


I'll say, F-16A is not even comparable to the F-14D, but whops, still, the USAF got a freaking KICK ASS by F-16A\B the had a ratio of 1:14 ( the USMC shot down 20 israeli aircrafts and israelis aircraft shot down 220 USMC jets ).

hermm..

lulldapull
02-14-2006, 01:14 PM
Well will you say is better
F-16A or F14D?


I'll say, F-16A is not even comparable to the F-14D, but whops, still, the USAF got a freaking KICK ASS by F-16A\B the had a ratio of 1:14 ( the USMC shot down 20 israeli aircrafts and israelis aircraft shot down 220 USMC jets ).

hermm..


Whooops! The Indian AF defeated the F-15C/ F-16 block-52's and Mirage-200-5's...Whoops 4X-IL... Whoops.....:D :D

lulldapull
02-14-2006, 01:15 PM
Well will you say is better
F-16A or F14D?


I'll say, F-16A is not even comparable to the F-14D, but whops, still, the USAF got a freaking KICK ASS by F-16A\B the had a ratio of 1:14 ( the USMC shot down 20 israeli aircrafts and israelis aircraft shot down 220 USMC jets ).

hermm..


Whooops! The Indian AF defeated the F-15C/ F-16 block-52's and Mirage-2000-5's...Whoops 4X-IL... Whoops.....:D :D

4X-IL
02-14-2006, 01:38 PM
lol
defeatead F-15C and F-16 block 52 with SU-30MKI !!!!!!!!!

I'll say Su-30 is better than F-15C any time any day.

extern
02-14-2006, 01:51 PM
Before some time I saw at russian fora an information from some russian speaking guy, that serves in Israel AF, according to him on the last exersises with the americans their kicked the a$$ of the israelies (2002 supposely ) in the joint exersises on USA soil. 2 years b4 that the israelis put the upper hand on the same exersises. Thus, I think, it is also a quastion of the luck...

4X-IL
02-14-2006, 01:57 PM
Before some time I saw at russian fora an information from some russian speaking guy, that serves in Israel AF, according to him on the last exersises with the americans their kicked the a$$ of the israelies (2002 supposely ) in the joint exersises on USA soil. 2 years b4 that the israelis put the upper hand on the same exersises. Thus, I think, it is also a quastion of the luck...


The one sole israel exercise with other country not on israel's soil was in " Maiple Flag " in Canada last year.
israel never flew to the US to an Exerice.

Kilo877
02-14-2006, 08:33 PM
I'll say, F-16A is not even comparable to the F-14D, but whops, still, the USAF got a freaking KICK ASS by F-16A\B the had a ratio of 1:14 ( the USMC shot down 20 israeli aircrafts and israelis aircraft shot down 220 USMC jets ).


Are you sure it was the USMC they have never used the F-14 it must have been the US navy that got its ass kicked.

You all must remember that there are different kinds of air2air combat beyond visual range (BVR) western aircraft are generally better at this, while on the other hand you have within visual range combat or dogfighting, which Russian designs are usually better at due to their better manouvrability.

IMHO Iranian pilots have a big advantage in the experience they gained from the Iran Iraq war when they saw a lot of air2air combat and the lessons learned from this can be passed on to younger pilots.

extern
02-15-2006, 04:44 AM
The one sole israel exercise with other country not on israel's soil was in " Maiple Flag " in Canada last year.
israel never flew to the US to an Exerice.
I mean "Top Flag-2003" exercises:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/227/israelif16omtopflag20039rv.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=israelif16omtopflag20039rv.jpg) http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1601/israelif16omtopflag200327un.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=israelif16omtopflag200327un.jpg)
- It is in USA, isn't it?

4X-IL
02-15-2006, 06:49 AM
I mean "Top Flag-2003" exercises:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/227/israelif16omtopflag20039rv.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=israelif16omtopflag20039rv.jpg) http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1601/israelif16omtopflag200327un.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=israelif16omtopflag200327un.jpg)
- It is in USA, isn't it?


wtf is Top Flag?

and i'll say it again.
the first time ever israel went to a joint exercise was in Maple Flag 2005 - Canada.

how do i know that?
there was 7 pages article about that in the Israel Airforce magazine, and i have it infront of my eyes right now.

extern
02-15-2006, 07:50 AM
wtf is Top Flag?

and i'll say it again.
the first time ever israel went to a joint exercise was in Maple Flag 2005 - Canada.

how do i know that?
there was 7 pages article about that in the Israel Airforce magazine, and i have it infront of my eyes right now.
Why they must to be honest in such delicate issue?
You can see by yourself the israeli aircrafts of Tayeset Akrav and Tayeset Nesher, the technicians in israeli uniform. And it is not Palmachim Air Base, is it? In general it should be strange if the israelis never do exercise in USA, shouldnt it?

4X-IL
02-15-2006, 11:17 AM
who wont they be honest?
its not a secret or anything.
the squdrons in the pictures are from the Scorpion squad ( Akrav ) and the Phoenix ( Of Ahol ), and it can be from anywhere.

extern
02-15-2006, 02:16 PM
who wont they be honest?
its not a secret or anything.
the squdrons in the pictures are from the Scorpion squad ( Akrav ) and the Phoenix ( Of Ahol ), and it can be from anywhere.
From anywhere exept Israel, bcoz there are no there so high mountains near the airbases ;)
According to my info it is Nevada.

Why whoudnt they be honest? Realllly! Dont kidding urself, as if you dont know about Bitakhon Sade etc.. Those guys do wish some job in TzaHaL, doesnt they? It is not big secret that the people abroad sometime know more about IDF that the Israelies.

4X-IL
02-15-2006, 02:54 PM
From anywhere exept Israel, bcoz there are no there so high mountains near the airbases ;)
According to my info it is Nevada.

Why whoudnt they be honest? Realllly! Dont kidding urself, as if you dont know about Bitakhon Sade etc.. Those guys do wish some job in TzaHaL, doesnt they? It is not big secret that the people abroad sometime know more about IDF that the Israelies.


i'll conclude it like this,
before and after Maple flag it was in the news, it is still on the internet, it was in the IAF magazine, and it was said everywhere that this is the first time of israel's joint exercise.
i can't see any reason why we will deny an exercise with the US.
i searched again and again in google for Top Flag \ anything with US - israeli exercise and found nothing, besides that, again.

U.S. Naval aviators pride themselves as being supposedly far better than any Air Force pilots, but one merely has to look at the Canadian, Israeli and Chilean air forces to cast doubt on that assumption. The Israeli Air Force has bested the pride of the U.S. Navy, and they have done so even with less capable aircraft. A joint U.S.N.-I.A.F. air combat exercise in 2000 underlines and highlights the thesis that the U.S. Navy is overrated. On September 14, 2000, The Jerusalem Post announced that the Israelis soundly dispatched the air wing from the U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt . Israeli F-16s squared off against American F-14s and F-18s, both of which are said to be more capable than the F-16. The final results were astonishing. The Israelis shot down a whopping 220 U.S. aircraft while losing only 20 themselves. The 10:1 kill ratio was so embarrassing that the results were not officially published to save the reputations of the U.S. Navy pilots.


so, for me its the truth, the pictures you gave are worthless and saying nothing.

MiG 31
02-15-2006, 04:05 PM
Su-27 will look very cool in IRIAF markings but right now were in no position to buy any new fighters or anytime soon. But i'm looking forward into Shafaq whill will make me very proud.... 2 more years babey!!!!:cool:

Capricorn Edge
02-16-2006, 09:44 AM
Su-27 will look very cool in IRIAF markings but right now were in no position to buy any new fighters or anytime soon. But i'm looking forward into Shafaq whill will make me very proud.... 2 more years babey!!!!:cool:

Let's all pray that Shafaq enters production before any country attacks Iran.:)

Musa a.s.
02-16-2006, 08:11 PM
I mean "Top Flag-2003" exercises:
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/227/israelif16omtopflag20039rv.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=israelif16omtopflag20039rv.jpg) http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1601/israelif16omtopflag200327un.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=israelif16omtopflag200327un.jpg)
- It is in USA, isn't it?
http://www.afa.org/magazine/Nov2000/1100redflag.asp

-Cobra-
02-19-2006, 03:54 AM
Hello, I has a question, can to me one say when Iran the Su-27 gets?

Reza6662
02-19-2006, 09:04 AM
Hello, I has a question, can to me one say when Iran the Su-27 gets?
When Iran Nuclear Program had been canceled.

lt.ali
02-25-2006, 05:42 PM
Hey all i just joined this site. Im Iranian-Canadian and found this site on google.

Anyway, i just wanted to say that this excersie was held in alberta canada. I remember it perfectly as i watched some clips on the news.

just thought to clear things up.
http://briarpatchmagazine.com/news/?p=49

MiG 31
02-25-2006, 07:13 PM
Hey all i just joined this site. Im Iranian-Canadian and found this site on google.

Anyway, i just wanted to say that this excersie was held in alberta canada. I remember it perfectly as i watched some clips on the news.

just thought to clear things up.
http://briarpatchmagazine.com/news/?p=49

I'm Iranian-Canadian too but i only say Canadian because I got my citinzenship for this country a few years ago.... where in Canada do you live?.

lt.ali
02-25-2006, 08:39 PM
i live in toronto, ontario.

Janbaz
02-28-2006, 12:05 PM
Guys, Iran does not need to buy any SU-27, F-16, F-15, SU-30, Mig 29 or anything else. All those investment need to be diverted to demostice fighter jet development. Please don't think about short term, think about long term. Besides, lets say if Iran buy 100 SU-27 on March 1st of 2006, and let say Russian delivers (which I doubt it totaly) 100 SU-27 on March 2nd. It will take at least a year or two for those SU-27 pilots be ready to take some live Ammo training. It takes Years and years to built pilot for one type of aircraft. You can not become a race car driver over night. You need at least couple of years of training to become a dependable race car driver, the same principle applys for Fighter jets. So I am for Iran investing their money for demostic development and production.

Request 1
05-05-2007, 09:43 AM
No, pilots are more important then aircraft and there is no better pilots in the world then US and Israeli onces.. And belive me 30 MIG's cant to much... Russia is under pressure so they cant just sell there newest aircraft

There are many other good pilots from other countries too. I bet Iranian pilots are also very good too, there just haven't been many excersizes against other countries to prove it. And Israeli Pilots have fought against Pakistani pilots as well, and the Pakistanis shot down many Israeli pilots without losing any of their own pilots durring the Arab-Israeli wars. But I do agree that Israeli pilots are also very good. :smile1:

Dolphin
09-13-2007, 05:30 PM
Well no
it is not Snauhi wet dream, this is just true.

You think that in the second Iran get Su's than HUIPE! thats it, iran is undefeatable?
You know how much time it takes to train a pilot to be actually good with the aircraft he's flying?
The Israel Air Force never lost a modern war ( without the shutting down of 85 Mig 21 and Mig 23 while the peace for the galil operation, which all shot down in two days with 0 loses to the IAF ) or an joint exercise with the USMC ( which was embarrassment to the USMC after the ratio of 1:14 to the IAF which flew with F16A againts F-14D's and F18C's ).

If I remember correctly, the Israeli and USMC training demonstrated how truly effective a the (Israeli) helmet cuing system really is. It pushed US forces to speed-up the implementation of such systems. Ironically the USN first experimented with helmet sites back in the 1970's on a Phantom.

Relikt
09-13-2007, 07:47 PM
Guys, Iran does not need to buy any SU-27, F-16, F-15, SU-30, Mig 29 or anything else. All those investment need to be diverted to demostice fighter jet development. Please don't think about short term, think about long term. Besides, lets say if Iran buy 100 SU-27 on March 1st of 2006, and let say Russian delivers (which I doubt it totaly) 100 SU-27 on March 2nd. It will take at least a year or two for those SU-27 pilots be ready to take some live Ammo training. It takes Years and years to built pilot for one type of aircraft. You can not become a race car driver over night. You need at least couple of years of training to become a dependable race car driver, the same principle applys for Fighter jets. So I am for Iran investing their money for demostic development and production.
Dude do you know what you are talking about?
Look one thing is building upgraded F-5 and total different thing is build 4.5 gen jet like Su-30 (which is upgraded Su-27). You see if Iran want to build 4.5 gen it would be total new project. It too would take time for training of crew and integration in air force. And on top of that you need big amount of money for R&D.
Look Argentina in early days of jets. They had superb engineer Kurt Tank. Man build in Nazi Germany Ta-152 one of best prop fighters of WW2 (maybe even best one). He also design jets in Nazi Germany but they stay only on paper. Argentina had money and became fifth country in world which build its own jet. And what happen after that? They bought US saber. It was much cheaper then production of its own jet and had similar or better performances.
To me Iran need to continue with light jet production (F-5 modification) but starting its own 4.5 gen program is simply overkill especially in situation in which Iran is now (in possible state of war with USA). Iran need to get Suhkois as faster as it can. Bunch of Sukhois with Sunburns would create headache to USN. They are confident in carrier defense ring but agian no admiral doesnt what to be first dude in history which lost super carrier.
Right know Iran is weak with air force and air defense but again USA isnt willing to start next war. With 30 Su-34 Iran would be much dangerous and USA wouldnt even consider action. Why?
Iran can send all 30 jets in suicide mission because in one way or another it would lost them. But can CAG defense ring deal with 30 jets? Or better to say 60 Sunburns?

P.S. 30 Su-34 would cost around 3 billion dollars (full packeting=parts, training of maintain crews, tools for maintaining, spare engines and pilot training) So probable for 3 billion $ Iran would be much safer. Another problem is that Su-34 with SS-N-22 is consider offensive weapon and it would be breaking of UN sanctions but if USA continue to pushing Russia with ABM and accept independent Kosovo without UN support I really dont see why Russia wouldnt sold its jets to Iran.

wmac
09-13-2007, 07:54 PM
I heard the price of oil decreased recently to around the 65$ p\b :)

Now it's $80.

@@@@@!
09-13-2007, 11:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEeBvGIpokk

Sokuy30
06-05-2008, 01:43 PM
This is a very good video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VRAvXwnHDs&feature=related